Islam, inter-faith marriage & raising kids

immaterial7

Hi,

I, a muslim, am considering marriage to a bahai (religious view is they have come AFTER islam with a new religion). I have been told by all islamic scholars and imams that this marriage is not permitted by islam. and this would be a grave sin. And that i am endangering my afterlife (ie going to hell) if i were to marry this person.

What concerns me more, though is the potential difficulties of having children with this lady in the future in an interfaith marriage where both parents are somewhat practising. Rasing them exclusively as muslim would not be fair on her (since her faith means alot to her and she would be mother of the kids) even though i believe it to be a true path. thats not to say that i think she is going to hell and we have had some conversations around upbringing of kids.

I guess i am looking for any input from people in a mixed faith background and whether these marriages do work - there are sooo many difficulties and our relationship is perfect (as perfect can be- we have know each other for many years) aside from when i consider opening up my children to being raised in 2 faiths. I of course would bring them up muslim, but my partner would also want to instill in them bahai practice - thus my questions really are as follows:
1- what is the islamic view on rearing children in an inter faith marriage where the partner is a post-islamic religion???
2- are there people out there that have inter faith marriages? and how if rasing children in both have you managed it??
3- are u not concerned that ure acutally influencing by agreeing to let ure child grow up practising 2 faiths that they may acutally reject ure faith and choose another / no faith? how do u PRACTICALLY raise a child in both? is it even possible???

any input will be much appreciated.

thanks all

Bottle_of_Smoke

I have been told by all islamic scholars and imams that this marriage is not permitted by islam. and this would be a grave sin. And that i am endangering my afterlife (ie going to hell) if i were to marry this person.

I'm guessing these guys are gonna be right tbh. As far as I know you can only marry "people of the book" - Christians/Jews, and obviously other Muslims. Female Muslims can only marry other Muslims

irishconvert

immaterial7 wrote: »

Hi,

I, a muslim, am considering marriage to a bahai (religious view is they have come AFTER islam with a new religion). I have been told by all islamic scholars and imams that this marriage is not permitted by islam. and this would be a grave sin. And that i am endangering my afterlife (ie going to hell) if i were to marry this person.

What concerns me more, though is the potential difficulties of having children with this lady in the future in an interfaith marriage where both parents are somewhat practising. Rasing them exclusively as muslim would not be fair on her (since her faith means alot to her and she would be mother of the kids) even though i believe it to be a true path. thats not to say that i think she is going to hell and we have had some conversations around upbringing of kids.

I guess i am looking for any input from people in a mixed faith background and whether these marriages do work - there are sooo many difficulties and our relationship is perfect (as perfect can be- we have know each other for many years) aside from when i consider opening up my children to being raised in 2 faiths. I of course would bring them up muslim, but my partner would also want to instill in them bahai practice - thus my questions really are as follows:
1- what is the islamic view on rearing children in an inter faith marriage where the partner is a post-islamic religion???

I think the Imams and Scholars you have questioned have already answered this, as you said above.

immaterial7 wrote: »

2- are there people out there that have inter faith marriages? and how if rasing children in both have you managed it??

I'm sure it would involve comprmise on both sides. Are you willing to comprmise on aspects of Islam. Can you give us an idea of what kind of things you would be expected to compromise on? Are these compromises going to cause conflict between your wife and you?

immaterial7 wrote: »

3- are u not concerned that ure acutally influencing by agreeing to let ure child grow up practising 2 faiths that they may acutally reject ure faith and choose another / no faith? how do u PRACTICALLY raise a child in both? is it even possible???

I think it will be confusing for the child. I am not familiar with the bahai faith, but if they have teachings which conflict with Islamic teaching then you are asking for trouble.

Mark Hamill

immaterial7 wrote: »

Hi,

I, a muslim, am considering marriage to a bahai (religious view is they have come AFTER islam with a new religion). I have been told by all islamic scholars and imams that this marriage is not permitted by islam. and this would be a grave sin. And that i am endangering my afterlife (ie going to hell) if i were to marry this person.

What concerns me more, though is the potential difficulties of having children with this lady in the future in an interfaith marriage where both parents are somewhat practising. Rasing them exclusively as muslim would not be fair on her (since her faith means alot to her and she would be mother of the kids) even though i believe it to be a true path. thats not to say that i think she is going to hell and we have had some conversations around upbringing of kids.

I guess i am looking for any input from people in a mixed faith background and whether these marriages do work - there are sooo many difficulties and our relationship is perfect (as perfect can be- we have know each other for many years) aside from when i consider opening up my children to being raised in 2 faiths. I of course would bring them up muslim, but my partner would also want to instill in them bahai practice - thus my questions really are as follows:
1- what is the islamic view on rearing children in an inter faith marriage where the partner is a post-islamic religion???
2- are there people out there that have inter faith marriages? and how if rasing children in both have you managed it??
3- are u not concerned that ure acutally influencing by agreeing to let ure child grow up practising 2 faiths that they may acutally reject ure faith and choose another / no faith? how do u PRACTICALLY raise a child in both? is it even possible???

any input will be much appreciated.

thanks all

You know, you could break the mold, so to speak, and just bring up your children to think for themselves and choose their own religion. The way I see it, is that you obviously dont think there is anything in your partners faith that makes her a bad person, hence you love them (and vice-versa) so it should be no problem to the both of you to bring up your children as good people, all the while allowing them to make their own decisions on what religion to become. If you think about it, they would be better muslims (or bahai, or whatever they end up as) if they freely choose it rather than being indoctrinated into it from birth.

oceanclub

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You know, you could break the mold, so to speak, and just bring up your children to think for themselves and choose their own religion. The way I see it, is that you obviously dont think there is anything in your partners faith that makes her a bad person, hence you love them (and vice-versa) so it should be no problem to the both of you to bring up your children as good people, all the while allowing them to make their own decisions on what religion to become. If you think about it, they would be better muslims (or bahai, or whatever they end up as) if they freely choose it rather than being indoctrinated into it from birth.

*thinks*

BURN THE HERETIC!

P.

philologos

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You know, you could break the mold, so to speak, and just bring up your children to think for themselves and choose their own religion. The way I see it, is that you obviously dont think there is anything in your partners faith that makes her a bad person, hence you love them (and vice-versa) so it should be no problem to the both of you to bring up your children as good people, all the while allowing them to make their own decisions on what religion to become. If you think about it, they would be better muslims (or bahai, or whatever they end up as) if they freely choose it rather than being indoctrinated into it from birth.

Mark, do you think it's really appropriate to bring your agenda into a thread about a serious Islamic concern?

I mean I don't personally think the OP will go to hell for marrying this woman, but differing value systems can make it difficult to raise children even if we are leaving aside the issue of Islamic scholars, and Islamic theology.

Zaynzma

oceanclub wrote: »

*thinks*

BURN THE HERETIC!

P.

I think you're getting your religions mixed up - Christianity is the only religion with a history of burning heretics.

The Recliner

oceanclub wrote: »

*thinks*

BURN THE HERETIC!

P.

Zaynzma wrote: »

I think you're getting your religions mixed up - Christianity is the only religion with a history of burning heretics.

Can we keep this on topic please

Post like this are unhelpful and not what was asked for in the OP

Any further posts like this will be met with bannings

doctoremma

Jakkass wrote: »

Mark, do you think it's really appropriate to bring your agenda into a thread about a serious Islamic concern?

I mean I don't personally think the OP will go to hell for marrying this woman, but differing value systems can make it difficult to raise children even if we are leaving aside the issue of Islamic scholars, and Islamic theology.

Sorry to jump in but: If there is a serious clash of value systems, maybe it's fairest to teach both or neither. However, I seriously doubt that the values of the OP clash radically with those of his wife in terms of being generous, polite, respectful etc. That's as much as any of us would hope to instil in a child?

philologos

I'm merely saying I can understand why in Islam it would be forbidden or advised to marry someone of similar values, if nor the same values. The OP is asking a question as to how he as a Muslim should deal with his situation.

In your atheist viewpoint, there is little consequence if someone chooses belief A over belief B, but from an Islamic viewpoint there is. There is also the believe that an Islamic path is best for the child.

While not Muslim, if I put the Muslim hat on for a second I can see where the Islamic scholars are coming from.

Zaynzma

Jakkass wrote: »

I mean I don't personally think the OP will go to hell for marrying this woman

Islamic scholars would never say that someone will 'go to hell' for marrying someone whom God has forbidden them to marry.

The OP says he was told marrying this woman would 'endanger his afterlife'. Of course in Islam he would be committing a sin by marrying her, as he is disobeying God. However it doesn't automatically follow that he would go to hell. God is the forgiver of sins, He forgives wherever He wills and it's not for us to say "God won't forgive him for that and will send him to hell for it".

It may be that living intimately with someone whose beliefs are contradictory to Islam will weaken this man's faith and he will fall away from the straight path entirely, or become a disbeliever (authu billah). In this way his marriage could lead to him going to hell which is probably why the scholars say you are 'endangering your afterlife' by committing sin rather than say 'you will go to hell'.

I'm sorry I'm a bit pedantic but Jakkass made it sound like a Muslim automatically goes to hell for marrying a person forbidden in marriage and that is not necessarily the case.

philologos

Zaynzma: Read the OP -

have been told by all islamic scholars and imams that this marriage is not permitted by islam. and this would be a grave sin. And that i am endangering my afterlife (ie going to hell) if i were to marry this person.

Were the scholars who told him this wrong?

Zaynzma wrote: »

It may be that living intimately with someone whose beliefs are contradictory to Islam will weaken this man's faith and he will fall away from the straight path entirely, or become a disbeliever (authu billah). In this way his marriage could lead to him going to hell which is probably why the scholars say you are 'endangering your afterlife' by committing sin rather than say 'you will go to hell'.

I can understand this from my own Christian view. The Israelites were forbidden to marry people who were foreign to their group of people after the time of Moses unless they were willing to conform to Jewish standards. In some cases marriages outside of the Jewish faith or the form of it that they had at the time were discouraged entirely due to the risk of mixing the faith that God had revealed them with pagan practices.

Although if we are going to accept the People of the Book claim, why is it better for a Muslim to marry a Christian than for a Muslim to marry a Bahai?

Christians are encouraged to tell their spouses about their faith:

1 Corinthians 7:16 wrote:

For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

I am just curious on this issue.

Zaynzma

Jakkass wrote: »

Zaynzma: Read the OP -


Were the scholars who told him this wrong?

Yes if it was them who said "ie going to hell" and not the OP's own comment. No person scholar or otherwise can say to another "you are going to hell for this". Judgement belongs to God.

We are told that there is one sin that God won't forgive (without repentance) and that is 'shirk' which is (my paraphrase but you can look it up for fuller explanation if you like) worshipping other than God alone. Every other sin can be forgiven, with or without repentance.

philologos

Zaynzma wrote: »

Yes if it was them who said "ie going to hell" and not the OP's own comment. No person scholar or otherwise can say to another "you are going to hell for this". Judgement belongs to God.

We are told that there is one sin that God won't forgive (without repentance) and that is 'shirk' which is (my paraphrase but you can look it up for fuller explanation if you like) worshipping other than God alone. Every other sin can be forgiven, with or without repentance.

How can anyone know if they are saved or not according to an Islamic viewpoint? Can they know or are we all unsure about where we are going?

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You know, you could break the mold, so to speak, and just bring up your children to think for themselves and choose their own religion. The way I see it, is that you obviously dont think there is anything in your partners faith that makes her a bad person, hence you love them (and vice-versa) so it should be no problem to the both of you to bring up your children as good people, all the while allowing them to make their own decisions on what religion to become. If you think about it, they would be better muslims (or bahai, or whatever they end up as) if they freely choose it rather than being indoctrinated into it from birth.

Hi Mark,

This forum is intended for Muslims to discuss their faith. Your post is unhelpful and does not address any of the concerns raised by the OP. Can you please refrain from posting again on this issue?

Thanks.

irishconvert

Jakkass wrote: »

How can anyone know if they are saved or not according to an Islamic viewpoint? Can they know or are we all unsure about where we are going?

You do not know for sure until the day of judgement.

philologos

irishconvert wrote: »

You do not know for sure until the day of judgement.

Apologies if this question is unacceptable, I hope it isn't, but doesn't this mean that one is doing good deeds so they won't go to hell instead of glorifying God? (N.B - I'm just trying to compare the Islamic viewpoint of salvation with the Christian one)

Would it be fair to say at the end of it all, in the Islamic concept of it, God puts your sins and your good deeds on a weighing scales to determine if the good outweighs the bad?

Zaynzma

Jakkass wrote: »

Although if we are going to accept the People of the Book claim, why is it better for a Muslim to marry a Christian than for a Muslim to marry a Bahai?

Christians are encouraged to tell their spouses about their faith:


I am just curious on this issue.

I am not too familiar with the Bahai faith but apparently they are 'innovators' who have introduced a new element to the Islamic faith - I think they believe in another prophet/messenger coming after Muhammad pbuh when Islam plainly says that Muhammad pbuh is the final messenger. Possibly this issue of 'innovating' is what makes them beyond the pale.

It's an interesting question but not one which I have an answer for.

irishconvert

To the original poster, I have been reading up on Bahai faith and I have to agree with the opinion you have received from the Imams and scholars who advised you. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) stated that there would be no other prophets after him, yet Bahai's believe in another prophet after Muhammad (PBUH). As you are aware innovation and introducing new things to Islam is a very serious sin. I would be very worried about this situation if I was you.

irishconvert

Jakkass wrote: »

Apologies if this question is unacceptable, I hope it isn't, but doesn't this mean that one is doing good deeds so they won't go to hell instead of glorifying God? (N.B - I'm just trying to compare the Islamic viewpoint of salvation with the Christian one)

One of our main reasons for existance is to worship Allah. We do good deeds to please him.

Jakkass wrote: »

Would it be fair to say at the end of it all, in the Islamic concept of it, God puts your sins and your good deeds on a weighing scales to determine if the good outweighs the bad?

I think that is a fair statement to make. The point though is that Allah decides the weight of each deed, so we never know for sure if the good deeds we do will be enough. Only Allah knows.

Zaynzma

Jakkass wrote: »

Apologies if this question is unacceptable, I hope it isn't, but doesn't this mean that one is doing good deeds so they won't go to hell instead of glorifying God? (N.B - I'm just trying to compare the Islamic viewpoint of salvation with the Christian one)

Would it be fair to say at the end of it all, in the Islamic concept of it, God puts your sins and your good deeds on a weighing scales to determine if the good outweighs the bad?

God looks at our hearts and our intentions. There is a saying of the prophet pbuh "actions are judged (by God) by intentions".

On the other hand, if a person gets through life without committing any major sin and genuinely repenting for any minor transgressions (whether through fear of hell or not), and furthermore manages to do some good deeds along the way, why shouldn't they get to paradise? It seems a bit churlish of us to whine "but he only did it cos he was afraid of going to hell, not for the glory of God".

God is the knower of hearts and He will judge us for our actions and our intentions, and how exactly He measures the good and the bad is known only to him. It's not a simple mathematical equation. There are many narrations in Islamic scripture about forgiveness - for example, the prostitute whose sins were all forgiven because she showed mercy to an animal.

We know that God is The Most Merciful and The One Who Loves to Forgive (2 of his titles) so we do our best and rely on His mercy for the rest.

philologos

irishconvert wrote: »

One of our main reasons for existance is to worship Allah. We do good deeds to please him.

I think that is a fair statement to make. The point though is that Allah decides the weight of each deed, so we never know for sure if the good deeds we do will be enough. Only Allah knows.

I'd love to ask you more about this post as it's radically different to what I have come to know, but I don't think it's fair to the OP right now. I thank you all for being cordial as usual and dealing with my questions.

OP - I hope you find a solution to your problem.

Mark Hamill

Jakkass wrote: »

Mark, do you think it's really appropriate to bring your agenda into a thread about a serious Islamic concern?

What agenda? What I have suggested will make the kids the most honest believers they could possibly be, regardless of what they end up believing. Surely thats the most important thing.

Jakkass wrote: »

I mean I don't personally think the OP will go to hell for marrying this woman, but differing value systems can make it difficult to raise children even if we are leaving aside the issue of Islamic scholars, and Islamic theology.

Hasn't stopped him from loving this woman, so I dont see how it should be a problem with the kids.

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

What agenda? What I have suggested will make the kids the most honest believers they could possibly be, regardless of what they end up believing. Surely thats the most important thing.


Hasn't stopped him from loving this woman, so I dont see how it should be a problem with the kids.

Mark, if you want to finish this discussion with Jackass, take it to PM or another forum. I have already asked you not to contribute to this discussion. The OP is looking for opinions from Muslims.

Mark Hamill

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm merely saying I can understand why in Islam it would be forbidden or advised to marry someone of similar values, if nor the same values. The OP is asking a question as to how he as a Muslim should deal with his situation.

Jakkass wrote: »

In your atheist viewpoint, there is little consequence if someone chooses belief A over belief B, but from an Islamic viewpoint there is. There is also the believe that an Islamic path is best for the child.

But if the only reason someone "chooses" belief A over belief B is that it was the only belief system they where allowed encountered in their formative years, then its hardly a choice, is it? Now, if all that really matters is that people call themselves muslim, and actual free-will choice is irrelevent, then why not just call everyone muslim?

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Hi Mark,

This forum is intended for Muslims to discuss their faith. Your post is unhelpful and does not address any of the concerns raised by the OP. Can you please refrain from posting again on this issue?

Thanks.

One of the issues raised by the OP is with the problems of raising children in an interfaith relationship, I think my post is most helpful as it details the benefits one of the OPs possible options (The OP has four choices with raising his kids: with his beliefs; with her beliefs; a mix of what is not contradictory; or none).
In what way do you see it as unhelpful?

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Mark, if you want to finish this discussion with Jackass, take it to PM or another forum. I have already asked you not to contribute to this discussion. The OP is looking for opinions from Muslims.

An opinion is valid based on its own content, not the beliefs of whoever is expressing it. One of the OPs questions was about raising kids in an interfaith relationship, surely he expects opinions from people of other faiths.

philologos

Mark it was about interfaith relationships, from an Islamic context, not from a secular one.

oceanclub

Jakkass wrote: »

Mark it was about interfaith relationships, from an Islamic context, not from a secular one.

The original poster said:

"I guess i am looking for any input from people in a mixed faith background and whether these marriages do work"

P.

irishconvert

Ok, let me make this perfectly clear, the OP is asking the question from an Islamic perspective, that is why he is has posted in the Islam forum. I don't want to see anymore posts that don't respond from an Islamic perspective, i.e. taking Islamic rules and teaching into account when advising the OP. Anyone who ignores this request will be banned.

JazakAllah.

PDN

Mark Hamill wrote: »

An opinion is valid based on its own content, not the beliefs of whoever is expressing it. One of the OPs questions was about raising kids in an interfaith relationship, surely he expects opinions from people of other faiths.

So which faith do you belong to?

immaterial7

Salaam / Peace to all,

thank you for the input thus far. To clarify, I was seeking input from muslim couples in inter-faith relationships AND non-muslims. As far as i can see, Mark has written nothing wrong in his responses and hence is perfectly entitled to his opinions on the subject matter from his personal belief point. Whether that be athiest, agnostic etc. I am new to the forum and hence can only go by the postings to this thread.

As to the comments on Islamic scholars and never passing judgement, that certainly is true. None of them said i was going to hell. But it was made very clear that such a marriage would indeed wiegh very heavily against me when coming to judgement.

I appreciate the posts so far, but i would urge further posts to concentrate on the topic of rasing children in such a multi-faith marriage where one parent is muslim. Of course, i am aware that there are plenty of interfatih marriages between muslims-christians, muslims-jews (permitted by islam as per definition of the people of the book) and also plenty where muslims have married partners of other faiths eg Hindu, Buddhist etc (not permitted by islam) but in both cases, the faiths are pre-islamic and i dont know people personally to talk to about their experiences. So to re-iterate, pls post on experiences of, knowledge of interfaith marriages and RASING CHILDREN where there is a muslim parent involved.

Many thanks

Zaynzma

I'm not in a mixed faith background, a very good friend of mine is (she's loosely catholic, hubby is Muslim) but she's not on these boards though.

No-one is going to tell you it's easy. You know that yourself surely. You would be embarking on a relationship without God's sanction and there is no barakah in that. But even apart from that the practicalities are extremely difficult to work out. Let me tell you, children put a strain on the best of relationships, and even parents with the same faith can have disagreements about upbringing (the mother usually wins, that's just how it is).

In Islam everyone has rights. Your children (insha'Allah) have rights and you have a duty towards them - even before they are born you have a duty towards them, which is choosing the best possible mother for them, the mother who will help them towards success in this life and the next.

wassalam I wish you all the best brother. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

imported_guy

sallam, there are a few points i want to make, and i want to make this clear from the start i come from an islamic family but i myself am an athiest (im just going to be providing facts here)

1- islam forbids men from marrying anyone outside an abrahamic faith (Ahlul-Kitaab) and forbids women from marrying anyone non muslim

2- since the woman you are marrying is non muslim and not from an abrahamic faith, it is forbidden to mary her.

3- since you are marrying a non muslim/non Ahlul-Kitaab, you are commiting various sins, the nikah will not hold, and any sexual contact will be considered zina (adultrey)

---

now for personal input

i know of several people (men) who have married women from other faith, which includes families of muslim/zoroastrian, muslim/christian, and muslim/hindu etc, obviously most of the men were looked down upon by their famlies etc, and were practically disowned in 2 of the cases, in the case of muslim/christian the woman actully reverted to islam but still had trouble "fitting in" to the family etc....

issue of raising kids, well take this for example

i was born in pakistan, i was a muslim until i decided to become an athiest
someone born in israel would probably be a jew until he chose a different faith
someone born in ireland etc would probably be a catholic until he chose a different faith

a child born in an inter-faith family would initially be confused over the idea of religion, best you could do is raise the child in a thiestic enviornment, i.e, teach them what religions in genral are about and what yours and their mother's beliefs are and since bahais believe in allah/muhammed its all good until bahaullah comes into the picture and then your wife may/may not try to enforce her beliefs on your children.

Mark Hamill

immaterial7 wrote: »

I appreciate the posts so far, but i would urge further posts to concentrate on the topic of rasing children in such a multi-faith marriage where one parent is muslim. Of course, i am aware that there are plenty of interfatih marriages between muslims-christians, muslims-jews (permitted by islam as per definition of the people of the book) and also plenty where muslims have married partners of other faiths eg Hindu, Buddhist etc (not permitted by islam) but in both cases, the faiths are pre-islamic and i dont know people personally to talk to about their experiences. So to re-iterate, pls post on experiences of, knowledge of interfaith marriages and RASING CHILDREN where there is a muslim parent involved.

I am atheist, but I am in a relationship with a muslim. We have no kids, but what I said in my first post is my view on how our kids, should we have any, should be raised. In fact, its how I think kids should be raised everywhere. You can call a child a muslim, but it no more makes them a muslim than calling them a fianna fail supporter makes them a fianna fail supporter. A child is incapable of considering such implications to make a label of fianna fail supporter apt (hence children cant vote), so I dont see why religious labels are any different.
You can look at it from another way: from a muslim point of view, whats wrong with raising a child to make up their own mind on each religion, so that when they reach a mature age, they can make a mature decision on what religion to believe in? Why is the alternative better?

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I am atheist, but I am in a relationship with a muslim. We have no kids, but what I said in my first post is my view on how our kids, should we have any, should be raised. In fact, its how I think kids should be raised everywhere. You can call a child a muslim, but it no more makes them a muslim than calling them a fianna fail supporter makes them a fianna fail supporter. A child is incapable of considering such implications to make a label of fianna fail supporter apt (hence children cant vote), so I dont see why religious labels are any different.

Mark, have you have had any discussions on this topic with your partner? She will know that a Muslim is obliged to raise their children as Muslims, not to do so is a very serious matter. It is not negotiable. However if the OP has no fear about not following thses rules then they could of course follow your suggestion. I would not recommend it though.

Zaynzma

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I am atheist, but I am in a relationship with a muslim.

can I ask in what sense is your partner a 'Muslim'? I mean is she a Muslim because she believes in the 7 articles of faith and the 5 pillars? Or is she a 'muslim' because she comes from a 'muslim' background but doesn't actually have any concrete beliefs herself?

Does she believe that having a sexual relationship outside marriage is a grave sin?

Hope you don't mind me asking these questions, but since you're here and have put forward your opinions I would like to know your personal situation.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Mark, have you have had any discussions on this topic with your partner? She will know that a Muslim is obliged to raise their children as Muslims, not to do so is a very serious matter. It is not negotiable. However if the OP has no fear about not following thses rules then they could of course follow your suggestion. I would not recommend it though.

I have had discussions with her and pretty much said to her what I said here. She had no immediate objections to my suggestion (although I didn't push her on it, as we dont have kids so its not immediately pressing, and I would want her to take her time with her decision and be completely happy with it). What is your reasoning for not liking my suggestion?

Mark Hamill

Zaynzma wrote: »

can I ask in what sense is your partner a 'Muslim'? I mean is she a Muslim because she believes in the 7 articles of faith and the 5 pillars?

I asked her and while she is reluctant to have me talk about her, she did say she does believe in the articles of faith and the pillars.

Zaynzma wrote: »

Or is she a 'muslim' because she comes from a 'muslim' background but doesn't actually have any concrete beliefs herself?

What do you mean by concrete beliefs?

Zaynzma wrote: »

Does she believe that having a sexual relationship outside marriage is a grave sin?

She says yes.

Zaynzma

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I asked her and while she is reluctant to have me talk about her, she did say she does believe in the articles of faith and the pillars.


What do you mean by concrete beliefs?


She says yes.

Thanks to you both for answering those questions. by concrete beliefs I mean believe absolutely, steadfastly and with complete conviction.

It's surprising to me how many people say they're Muslim and then when you press them they don't even know what Muslims actually believe in. So I sometimes like to clarify whether someone calling themselves Muslim actually believe in Islam or just have a background in a country with a broadly Islamic culture, or whatever. (actually the same applies to people calling themselves christian who've never opened a bible in their lives).

It's also surprising to me when someone who affirms belief in all the Muslim articles of faith will choose to live a lifestyle which is contrary to their beliefs. I'm not sure how that comes about and would like to understand it better but I guess it's not your story to tell and this is not the place to discuss it anyway really.

All the best to you both.

Zaynzma

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You know, you could break the mold, so to speak, and just bring up your children to think for themselves and choose their own religion. The way I see it, is that you obviously dont think there is anything in your partners faith that makes her a bad person, hence you love them (and vice-versa) so it should be no problem to the both of you to bring up your children as good people, all the while allowing them to make their own decisions on what religion to become. If you think about it, they would be better muslims (or bahai, or whatever they end up as) if they freely choose it rather than being indoctrinated into it from birth.

Could you explain a bit further how you would go about this?

Would you actually make sure that the children were educated in a range of religions, study the scriptures and so on?

Or would you just 'leave them to their own devices' so to speak?

oceanclub

Zaynzma wrote: »

Thanks to you both for answering those questions. by concrete beliefs I mean believe absolutely, steadfastly and with complete conviction.

It's surprising to me how many people say they're Muslim and then when you press them they don't even know what Muslims actually believe in. So I sometimes like to clarify whether someone calling themselves Muslim actually believe in Islam or just have a background in a country with a broadly Islamic culture, or whatever. (actually the same applies to people calling themselves christian who've never opened a bible in their lives).

It's also surprising to me when someone who affirms belief in all the Muslim articles of faith will choose to live a lifestyle which is contrary to their beliefs. I'm not sure how that comes about and would like to understand it better but I guess it's not your story to tell and this is not the place to discuss it anyway really.

Zaynzma, I presume that you yourself consider yourself an absolute steadfast Muslim beyond reproach, to be judging Mark's wife in this way.

P.

Mark Hamill

Zaynzma wrote: »

Could you explain a bit further how you would go about this?

Would you actually make sure that the children were educated in a range of religions, study the scriptures and so on?

Or would you just 'leave them to their own devices' so to speak?

When they are young, I wouldn't really bother the children with any thoughts of religion, in the same way I wouldn't really bother them with any thoughts of politics (although, if they where interested, I would gently encourage it). Probably at around ten years of age, I would try to encourage them to more vigorously question things around them (assuming they haven't already). I would hope to encourage them to have a healthy level of skepticism, to have an interest in gaining knowledge and finding out truth and would simply try to make myself open for them to discuss their opinions with me and give them opportunities to explore their own ideas: libraries, internet, or people with experience (religious leaders, philosophers, scientists) depending on where their interests lies. As a control, to make sure they aren't being sucked into easy answers and to keep them wanting the actual truth over the convenient truth I would question their beliefs and opinions and use questioning to pry open any flaws in thinking I may believe I see (although, who knows, Maybe they will correct a flaw in my thinking ).
Essentially, a "leave them to their own devices" approach, but I wouldn't let them be lazy and ignore the world around them.

Mark Hamill

oceanclub wrote: »

Zaynzma, I presume that you yourself consider yourself an absolute steadfast Muslim beyond reproach, to be judging Mark's wife in this way.

P.

Girlfriend, actually, but if I am lucky, someday wife

Zaynzma

oceanclub wrote: »

Zaynzma, I presume that you yourself consider yourself an absolute steadfast Muslim beyond reproach, to be judging Mark's wife in this way.

P.

On the contrary, I accept that this lady may be very steadfast in her beliefs, however if she has a boyfriend then I am assuming that she isn't living an Islamic lifestyle - this would be a fact and not a judgement on my part. I have no reason not to believe that she isn't a very nice, kind, decent human being but the fact remains that (apparently) she isn't practising Islam at the moment (if I'm wrong about tht hopefully MH will put me straight.

I was curious about how you feel when you have certain strong beliefs but choose not to live your life in accordance with them. Possibly there are any number of reasons for this, but since the lady herself is not here and is not comfortable with being discussed in this way then it's not really appropriate for me to discuss it further.

oceanclub

Zaynzma wrote: »

On the contrary, I accept that this lady may be very steadfast in her beliefs, however if she has a boyfriend then I am assuming that she isn't living an Islamic lifestyle - this would be a fact and not a judgement on my part.

Since there is no single non-ambiguous definition of "Islamic lifestyle" , then I would say that judgement is involved. You say "if she has a boyfriend then I am assuming that she isn't living an Islamic lifestyle", which suggests that in your judgement, Muslims are not allowed to date. Based on the number of Muslim dating web-sites out there, I imagine many Muslims don't follow your definition of an "Islamic" lifestyle.

P.

Zaynzma

oceanclub wrote: »

Since there is no single non-ambiguous definition of "Islamic lifestyle" , then I would say that judgement is involved. You say "if she has a boyfriend then I am assuming that she isn't living an Islamic lifestyle", which suggests that in your judgement, Muslims are not allowed to date. Based on the number of Muslim dating web-sites out there, I imagine many Muslims don't follow your definition of an "Islamic" lifestyle.

P.

It isn't my judgement. It is perfectly clear that in Islam zina (fornication or adultery) is haram. It's not a grey area.

Plenty of Muslims engage in haram acts, that doesn't mean that the haram is part of an 'Islamic lifestyle'.

If they claim that having a sexual relationship outside marriage is not haram, then they have abandoned Islam. This is not a pick-n-mix issue. Zina (fornication or adultery) is not allowed in Islam.

If they accept that their actions are wrong, even if they continue in those actions they are sinners but not disbelievers.

oceanclub

Zaynzma wrote: »

It isn't my judgement. It is perfectly clear that in Islam zina (fornication or adultery) is haram. It's not a grey area.

I don't recall Mark mentioning whether or not they have sex. This seems a rather prurient assumption on your part.

P.

irishconvert

oceanclub wrote: »

Since there is no single non-ambiguous definition of "Islamic lifestyle" , then I would say that judgement is involved. You say "if she has a boyfriend then I am assuming that she isn't living an Islamic lifestyle", which suggests that in your judgement, Muslims are not allowed to date. Based on the number of Muslim dating web-sites out there, I imagine many Muslims don't follow your definition of an "Islamic" lifestyle.

P.

Oceanclub, Muslims are not allowed to date. It doesn't matter what dating websites you have found out there.

Can I remind all posters of rule 1 of the charter: "It is for the open discussion of the religon for those who are following it or for those who may have honest questions about it. IT IS NOT FOR YOU TO VENT, OR FOR MUSLIMS TO HAVE TO DEFEND THIER FAITH FROM ATTACK.". Any further breeches of this rule will result in bans.

Zaynzma

Mark Hamill wrote: »

When they are young, I wouldn't really bother the children with any thoughts of religion, in the same way I wouldn't really bother them with any thoughts of politics (although, if they where interested, I would gently encourage it). Probably at around ten years of age, I would try to encourage them to more vigorously question things around them (assuming they haven't already). I would hope to encourage them to have a healthy level of skepticism, to have an interest in gaining knowledge and finding out truth and would simply try to make myself open for them to discuss their opinions with me and give them opportunities to explore their own ideas: libraries, internet, or people with experience (religious leaders, philosophers, scientists) depending on where their interests lies. As a control, to make sure they aren't being sucked into easy answers and to keep them wanting the actual truth over the convenient truth I would question their beliefs and opinions and use questioning to pry open any flaws in thinking I may believe I see (although, who knows, Maybe they will correct a flaw in my thinking ).
Essentially, a "leave them to their own devices" approach, but I wouldn't let them be lazy and ignore the world around them.

It sounds fine except for the beginning, when you say you wouldn't bother them with any thoughts of religion when they are young. Are there any small children in your extended family? because they have a habit of asking questions, questions, questions - why is the sky blue? what are rainbows made of? who is God? where is (dead relative) now? why is snow cold? They demand answers - honest answers, accurate if possible but definitely from the heart.

The problem with the 'leave them their own devices' approach is that they will get their answers from somewhere. They have to. They are driven to find out things.

So believe me, the chances are high that long before any chidren you might have are 10 you will have been forced to share your beliefs with them, in all kinds of subjects.

It's the parents' duty to explain the world to their kids, as they understand it.

I'm a Muslim and I believe in One God who created the universe and everything in it, so that's what I tell my kids. With my older child I do tell him that there are other religions, other points of view, other scriptures - we have several bibles and a torah and other religious writings on the bookshelves and he does look at them sometimes. We have family members who are practising Christians so he is aware that he needs to respect other people's beliefs. But ultimately, I'm a Muslim and when I discuss Islam with him it's from the assumption that this is the truth. If you discuss religious beliefs with your children in the future, you will be presenting your point of view, your truth. It's hard to do anything else.

oceanclub

Zaynzma wrote: »

If you discuss religious beliefs with your children in the future, you will be presenting your point of view, your truth. It's hard to do anything else.

My parents were devout Catholics; I'm an atheist. I have a friend who is a devout Christian; his parents were atheists. My mother in law is Catholic; her family are Buddhists. In a modern-day multi-cultural environment where freedom of expression is allowed, the idea that you can inculcate your own your religion on your children seems wishful thinking.

(I'm yes I'm in a mixed relationship too.)

P.