Islam, inter-faith marriage & raising kids

immaterial7

Salaam / Peace to all,

thank you for the input thus far. To clarify, I was seeking input from muslim couples in inter-faith relationships AND non-muslims. As far as i can see, Mark has written nothing wrong in his responses and hence is perfectly entitled to his opinions on the subject matter from his personal belief point. Whether that be athiest, agnostic etc. I am new to the forum and hence can only go by the postings to this thread.

As to the comments on Islamic scholars and never passing judgement, that certainly is true. None of them said i was going to hell. But it was made very clear that such a marriage would indeed wiegh very heavily against me when coming to judgement.

I appreciate the posts so far, but i would urge further posts to concentrate on the topic of rasing children in such a multi-faith marriage where one parent is muslim. Of course, i am aware that there are plenty of interfatih marriages between muslims-christians, muslims-jews (permitted by islam as per definition of the people of the book) and also plenty where muslims have married partners of other faiths eg Hindu, Buddhist etc (not permitted by islam) but in both cases, the faiths are pre-islamic and i dont know people personally to talk to about their experiences. So to re-iterate, pls post on experiences of, knowledge of interfaith marriages and RASING CHILDREN where there is a muslim parent involved.

Many thanks

Zaynzma

I'm not in a mixed faith background, a very good friend of mine is (she's loosely catholic, hubby is Muslim) but she's not on these boards though.

No-one is going to tell you it's easy. You know that yourself surely. You would be embarking on a relationship without God's sanction and there is no barakah in that. But even apart from that the practicalities are extremely difficult to work out. Let me tell you, children put a strain on the best of relationships, and even parents with the same faith can have disagreements about upbringing (the mother usually wins, that's just how it is).

In Islam everyone has rights. Your children (insha'Allah) have rights and you have a duty towards them - even before they are born you have a duty towards them, which is choosing the best possible mother for them, the mother who will help them towards success in this life and the next.

wassalam I wish you all the best brother. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

imported_guy

sallam, there are a few points i want to make, and i want to make this clear from the start i come from an islamic family but i myself am an athiest (im just going to be providing facts here)

1- islam forbids men from marrying anyone outside an abrahamic faith (Ahlul-Kitaab) and forbids women from marrying anyone non muslim

2- since the woman you are marrying is non muslim and not from an abrahamic faith, it is forbidden to mary her.

3- since you are marrying a non muslim/non Ahlul-Kitaab, you are commiting various sins, the nikah will not hold, and any sexual contact will be considered zina (adultrey)

---

now for personal input

i know of several people (men) who have married women from other faith, which includes families of muslim/zoroastrian, muslim/christian, and muslim/hindu etc, obviously most of the men were looked down upon by their famlies etc, and were practically disowned in 2 of the cases, in the case of muslim/christian the woman actully reverted to islam but still had trouble "fitting in" to the family etc....

issue of raising kids, well take this for example

i was born in pakistan, i was a muslim until i decided to become an athiest
someone born in israel would probably be a jew until he chose a different faith
someone born in ireland etc would probably be a catholic until he chose a different faith

a child born in an inter-faith family would initially be confused over the idea of religion, best you could do is raise the child in a thiestic enviornment, i.e, teach them what religions in genral are about and what yours and their mother's beliefs are and since bahais believe in allah/muhammed its all good until bahaullah comes into the picture and then your wife may/may not try to enforce her beliefs on your children.

Mark Hamill

immaterial7 wrote: »

I appreciate the posts so far, but i would urge further posts to concentrate on the topic of rasing children in such a multi-faith marriage where one parent is muslim. Of course, i am aware that there are plenty of interfatih marriages between muslims-christians, muslims-jews (permitted by islam as per definition of the people of the book) and also plenty where muslims have married partners of other faiths eg Hindu, Buddhist etc (not permitted by islam) but in both cases, the faiths are pre-islamic and i dont know people personally to talk to about their experiences. So to re-iterate, pls post on experiences of, knowledge of interfaith marriages and RASING CHILDREN where there is a muslim parent involved.

I am atheist, but I am in a relationship with a muslim. We have no kids, but what I said in my first post is my view on how our kids, should we have any, should be raised. In fact, its how I think kids should be raised everywhere. You can call a child a muslim, but it no more makes them a muslim than calling them a fianna fail supporter makes them a fianna fail supporter. A child is incapable of considering such implications to make a label of fianna fail supporter apt (hence children cant vote), so I dont see why religious labels are any different.
You can look at it from another way: from a muslim point of view, whats wrong with raising a child to make up their own mind on each religion, so that when they reach a mature age, they can make a mature decision on what religion to believe in? Why is the alternative better?

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I am atheist, but I am in a relationship with a muslim. We have no kids, but what I said in my first post is my view on how our kids, should we have any, should be raised. In fact, its how I think kids should be raised everywhere. You can call a child a muslim, but it no more makes them a muslim than calling them a fianna fail supporter makes them a fianna fail supporter. A child is incapable of considering such implications to make a label of fianna fail supporter apt (hence children cant vote), so I dont see why religious labels are any different.

Mark, have you have had any discussions on this topic with your partner? She will know that a Muslim is obliged to raise their children as Muslims, not to do so is a very serious matter. It is not negotiable. However if the OP has no fear about not following thses rules then they could of course follow your suggestion. I would not recommend it though.

Zaynzma

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I am atheist, but I am in a relationship with a muslim.

can I ask in what sense is your partner a 'Muslim'? I mean is she a Muslim because she believes in the 7 articles of faith and the 5 pillars? Or is she a 'muslim' because she comes from a 'muslim' background but doesn't actually have any concrete beliefs herself?

Does she believe that having a sexual relationship outside marriage is a grave sin?

Hope you don't mind me asking these questions, but since you're here and have put forward your opinions I would like to know your personal situation.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Mark, have you have had any discussions on this topic with your partner? She will know that a Muslim is obliged to raise their children as Muslims, not to do so is a very serious matter. It is not negotiable. However if the OP has no fear about not following thses rules then they could of course follow your suggestion. I would not recommend it though.

I have had discussions with her and pretty much said to her what I said here. She had no immediate objections to my suggestion (although I didn't push her on it, as we dont have kids so its not immediately pressing, and I would want her to take her time with her decision and be completely happy with it). What is your reasoning for not liking my suggestion?

Mark Hamill

Zaynzma wrote: »

can I ask in what sense is your partner a 'Muslim'? I mean is she a Muslim because she believes in the 7 articles of faith and the 5 pillars?

I asked her and while she is reluctant to have me talk about her, she did say she does believe in the articles of faith and the pillars.

Zaynzma wrote: »

Or is she a 'muslim' because she comes from a 'muslim' background but doesn't actually have any concrete beliefs herself?

What do you mean by concrete beliefs?

Zaynzma wrote: »

Does she believe that having a sexual relationship outside marriage is a grave sin?

She says yes.

Zaynzma

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I asked her and while she is reluctant to have me talk about her, she did say she does believe in the articles of faith and the pillars.


What do you mean by concrete beliefs?


She says yes.

Thanks to you both for answering those questions. by concrete beliefs I mean believe absolutely, steadfastly and with complete conviction.

It's surprising to me how many people say they're Muslim and then when you press them they don't even know what Muslims actually believe in. So I sometimes like to clarify whether someone calling themselves Muslim actually believe in Islam or just have a background in a country with a broadly Islamic culture, or whatever. (actually the same applies to people calling themselves christian who've never opened a bible in their lives).

It's also surprising to me when someone who affirms belief in all the Muslim articles of faith will choose to live a lifestyle which is contrary to their beliefs. I'm not sure how that comes about and would like to understand it better but I guess it's not your story to tell and this is not the place to discuss it anyway really.

All the best to you both.

Zaynzma

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You know, you could break the mold, so to speak, and just bring up your children to think for themselves and choose their own religion. The way I see it, is that you obviously dont think there is anything in your partners faith that makes her a bad person, hence you love them (and vice-versa) so it should be no problem to the both of you to bring up your children as good people, all the while allowing them to make their own decisions on what religion to become. If you think about it, they would be better muslims (or bahai, or whatever they end up as) if they freely choose it rather than being indoctrinated into it from birth.

Could you explain a bit further how you would go about this?

Would you actually make sure that the children were educated in a range of religions, study the scriptures and so on?

Or would you just 'leave them to their own devices' so to speak?

oceanclub

Zaynzma wrote: »

Thanks to you both for answering those questions. by concrete beliefs I mean believe absolutely, steadfastly and with complete conviction.

It's surprising to me how many people say they're Muslim and then when you press them they don't even know what Muslims actually believe in. So I sometimes like to clarify whether someone calling themselves Muslim actually believe in Islam or just have a background in a country with a broadly Islamic culture, or whatever. (actually the same applies to people calling themselves christian who've never opened a bible in their lives).

It's also surprising to me when someone who affirms belief in all the Muslim articles of faith will choose to live a lifestyle which is contrary to their beliefs. I'm not sure how that comes about and would like to understand it better but I guess it's not your story to tell and this is not the place to discuss it anyway really.

Zaynzma, I presume that you yourself consider yourself an absolute steadfast Muslim beyond reproach, to be judging Mark's wife in this way.

P.

Mark Hamill

Zaynzma wrote: »

Could you explain a bit further how you would go about this?

Would you actually make sure that the children were educated in a range of religions, study the scriptures and so on?

Or would you just 'leave them to their own devices' so to speak?

When they are young, I wouldn't really bother the children with any thoughts of religion, in the same way I wouldn't really bother them with any thoughts of politics (although, if they where interested, I would gently encourage it). Probably at around ten years of age, I would try to encourage them to more vigorously question things around them (assuming they haven't already). I would hope to encourage them to have a healthy level of skepticism, to have an interest in gaining knowledge and finding out truth and would simply try to make myself open for them to discuss their opinions with me and give them opportunities to explore their own ideas: libraries, internet, or people with experience (religious leaders, philosophers, scientists) depending on where their interests lies. As a control, to make sure they aren't being sucked into easy answers and to keep them wanting the actual truth over the convenient truth I would question their beliefs and opinions and use questioning to pry open any flaws in thinking I may believe I see (although, who knows, Maybe they will correct a flaw in my thinking ).
Essentially, a "leave them to their own devices" approach, but I wouldn't let them be lazy and ignore the world around them.

Mark Hamill

oceanclub wrote: »

Zaynzma, I presume that you yourself consider yourself an absolute steadfast Muslim beyond reproach, to be judging Mark's wife in this way.

P.

Girlfriend, actually, but if I am lucky, someday wife

Zaynzma

oceanclub wrote: »

Zaynzma, I presume that you yourself consider yourself an absolute steadfast Muslim beyond reproach, to be judging Mark's wife in this way.

P.

On the contrary, I accept that this lady may be very steadfast in her beliefs, however if she has a boyfriend then I am assuming that she isn't living an Islamic lifestyle - this would be a fact and not a judgement on my part. I have no reason not to believe that she isn't a very nice, kind, decent human being but the fact remains that (apparently) she isn't practising Islam at the moment (if I'm wrong about tht hopefully MH will put me straight.

I was curious about how you feel when you have certain strong beliefs but choose not to live your life in accordance with them. Possibly there are any number of reasons for this, but since the lady herself is not here and is not comfortable with being discussed in this way then it's not really appropriate for me to discuss it further.

oceanclub

Zaynzma wrote: »

On the contrary, I accept that this lady may be very steadfast in her beliefs, however if she has a boyfriend then I am assuming that she isn't living an Islamic lifestyle - this would be a fact and not a judgement on my part.

Since there is no single non-ambiguous definition of "Islamic lifestyle" , then I would say that judgement is involved. You say "if she has a boyfriend then I am assuming that she isn't living an Islamic lifestyle", which suggests that in your judgement, Muslims are not allowed to date. Based on the number of Muslim dating web-sites out there, I imagine many Muslims don't follow your definition of an "Islamic" lifestyle.

P.

Zaynzma

oceanclub wrote: »

Since there is no single non-ambiguous definition of "Islamic lifestyle" , then I would say that judgement is involved. You say "if she has a boyfriend then I am assuming that she isn't living an Islamic lifestyle", which suggests that in your judgement, Muslims are not allowed to date. Based on the number of Muslim dating web-sites out there, I imagine many Muslims don't follow your definition of an "Islamic" lifestyle.

P.

It isn't my judgement. It is perfectly clear that in Islam zina (fornication or adultery) is haram. It's not a grey area.

Plenty of Muslims engage in haram acts, that doesn't mean that the haram is part of an 'Islamic lifestyle'.

If they claim that having a sexual relationship outside marriage is not haram, then they have abandoned Islam. This is not a pick-n-mix issue. Zina (fornication or adultery) is not allowed in Islam.

If they accept that their actions are wrong, even if they continue in those actions they are sinners but not disbelievers.

oceanclub

Zaynzma wrote: »

It isn't my judgement. It is perfectly clear that in Islam zina (fornication or adultery) is haram. It's not a grey area.

I don't recall Mark mentioning whether or not they have sex. This seems a rather prurient assumption on your part.

P.

irishconvert

oceanclub wrote: »

Since there is no single non-ambiguous definition of "Islamic lifestyle" , then I would say that judgement is involved. You say "if she has a boyfriend then I am assuming that she isn't living an Islamic lifestyle", which suggests that in your judgement, Muslims are not allowed to date. Based on the number of Muslim dating web-sites out there, I imagine many Muslims don't follow your definition of an "Islamic" lifestyle.

P.

Oceanclub, Muslims are not allowed to date. It doesn't matter what dating websites you have found out there.

Can I remind all posters of rule 1 of the charter: "It is for the open discussion of the religon for those who are following it or for those who may have honest questions about it. IT IS NOT FOR YOU TO VENT, OR FOR MUSLIMS TO HAVE TO DEFEND THIER FAITH FROM ATTACK.". Any further breeches of this rule will result in bans.

Zaynzma

Mark Hamill wrote: »

When they are young, I wouldn't really bother the children with any thoughts of religion, in the same way I wouldn't really bother them with any thoughts of politics (although, if they where interested, I would gently encourage it). Probably at around ten years of age, I would try to encourage them to more vigorously question things around them (assuming they haven't already). I would hope to encourage them to have a healthy level of skepticism, to have an interest in gaining knowledge and finding out truth and would simply try to make myself open for them to discuss their opinions with me and give them opportunities to explore their own ideas: libraries, internet, or people with experience (religious leaders, philosophers, scientists) depending on where their interests lies. As a control, to make sure they aren't being sucked into easy answers and to keep them wanting the actual truth over the convenient truth I would question their beliefs and opinions and use questioning to pry open any flaws in thinking I may believe I see (although, who knows, Maybe they will correct a flaw in my thinking ).
Essentially, a "leave them to their own devices" approach, but I wouldn't let them be lazy and ignore the world around them.

It sounds fine except for the beginning, when you say you wouldn't bother them with any thoughts of religion when they are young. Are there any small children in your extended family? because they have a habit of asking questions, questions, questions - why is the sky blue? what are rainbows made of? who is God? where is (dead relative) now? why is snow cold? They demand answers - honest answers, accurate if possible but definitely from the heart.

The problem with the 'leave them their own devices' approach is that they will get their answers from somewhere. They have to. They are driven to find out things.

So believe me, the chances are high that long before any chidren you might have are 10 you will have been forced to share your beliefs with them, in all kinds of subjects.

It's the parents' duty to explain the world to their kids, as they understand it.

I'm a Muslim and I believe in One God who created the universe and everything in it, so that's what I tell my kids. With my older child I do tell him that there are other religions, other points of view, other scriptures - we have several bibles and a torah and other religious writings on the bookshelves and he does look at them sometimes. We have family members who are practising Christians so he is aware that he needs to respect other people's beliefs. But ultimately, I'm a Muslim and when I discuss Islam with him it's from the assumption that this is the truth. If you discuss religious beliefs with your children in the future, you will be presenting your point of view, your truth. It's hard to do anything else.

oceanclub

Zaynzma wrote: »

If you discuss religious beliefs with your children in the future, you will be presenting your point of view, your truth. It's hard to do anything else.

My parents were devout Catholics; I'm an atheist. I have a friend who is a devout Christian; his parents were atheists. My mother in law is Catholic; her family are Buddhists. In a modern-day multi-cultural environment where freedom of expression is allowed, the idea that you can inculcate your own your religion on your children seems wishful thinking.

(I'm yes I'm in a mixed relationship too.)

P.

philologos

oceanclub wrote: »

My parents were devout Catholics; I'm an atheist. I have a friend who is a devout Christian; his parents were atheists. My mother in law is Catholic; her family are Buddhists. In a modern-day multi-cultural environment where freedom of expression is allowed, the idea that you can inculcate your own your religion on your children seems wishful thinking.

Are you saying that parents shouldn't be allowed to share their religious views with their children?

oceanclub

Jakkass wrote: »

Are you saying that parents shouldn't be allowed to share their religious views with their children?

Er, no, of course not. I can't even imagine how you read that from my words unless you're making assumptions.

What I am saying is that there's a notion here that one should only marry people of the same religion in order to make sure your children remain in that religion. My point is that having both or one parent of a particularly religion is no guarantee to the child believing that religion in an environment where they will exposed to multiple religions and multiple sources of information.

So, the idea that one should sacrifice true love and give up a relationship for this reason sounds like a gamble with high stakes.

P.

Zaynzma

oceanclub wrote: »

there's a notion here that one should only marry people of the same religion in order to make sure your children remain in that religion

It's not about ensuring that your children remain in your religion. It's about obeying God and carrying out your responsibilities as a parent.

philologos

Mark Hamill wrote: »

When they are young, I wouldn't really bother the children with any thoughts of religion, in the same way I wouldn't really bother them with any thoughts of politics (although, if they where interested, I would gently encourage it). Probably at around ten years of age, I would try to encourage them to more vigorously question things around them (assuming they haven't already).

What if your girlfriend does?
Also, since when is educating someone "bothering"?

oceanclub: The question mark means that I am asking further to see what your thoughts are!

What I am saying is that there's a notion here that one should only marry people of the same religion in order to make sure your children remain in that religion.

Of course there is. If I will get married, I hope it will be to someone who shares Christian beliefs, not only from the potential perspective of children but out of mere respect for who I am, and my relationship with God.

I presume the same is true for Islam.

oceanclub

Zaynzma wrote: »

It's not about ensuring that your children remain in your religion. It's about obeying God and carrying out your responsibilities as a parent.

And what is this responsibility? If the responsibility is to bring up your children as Muslims to the best of your ability and teaching them about your beliefs, then you can do that in a mixed marriage.

P.

oceanclub

Jakkass wrote: »

oceanclub: The question mark means that I am asking further to see what your thoughts are!

Er, which question mark? I've lost your train of thought here.

P.

philologos

This one:

Jakkass wrote:

Are you saying that parents shouldn't be allowed to share their religious views with their children?

oceanclub

Jakkass wrote: »

This one:

I replied here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63811430&postcount=53

P.

Zaynzma

oceanclub wrote: »

And what is this responsibility? If the responsibility is to bring up your children as Muslims to the best of your ability and teaching them about your beliefs, then you can do that in a mixed marriage.

P.

but you're not obeying God if you're married to an athiest, and that is part of your responsibility to your kids.

How can I tell my kids "these are God's laws in which I wholeheartedly believe" when I am actually not living in accordance with those laws myself, I am committing a major sin.

oceanclub

Zaynzma wrote: »

but you're not obeying God if you're married to an athiest, and that is part of your responsibility to your kids.

How can I tell my kids "these are God's laws in which I wholeheartedly believe" when I am actually not living in accordance with those laws myself, I am committing a major sin.

You could say that living in a multi-cultural multi-religious society means that compromises are made. I mean, I presume you don't strictly obey all halal food laws in Ireland either.

P.