The End of Time Part 2 - Spoilers

iguana

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

Also, surely RTD has kinda screwed Moffat regarding the Time Lords. He gave the Time Lords a way to survive the Time War, then puts them right back into it. So now the Time Lords plan is foiled, they should have no way out, and are therefore gone. What if Moffat wanted to bring them back?

I'm sure they would have discussed this with each other.

Doctor DooM

come on lads. it'd take 2 minutes to bring the time lords back now it's established they continue to exist. "oh we didn't just seed the master, we seeded gimmick-of-the-week" as well!

pixelburp

Hmm, you know, I just remembered something utterly ludicruous (other than the other ludicuous things) that happened in part 2 that no one has yet mentioned. The Doctor jumps out of a high-speed ship into the skies over the Naismith mansion, falls at speed, through a giant dome window and lands face first on the (granite) floor?

The Doctor parachutes in, sans parachute. And lives.

I think it's a final proof of RTD not giving a fook for his own internal logic when basic external physics are told to get lost too :rolleyes:

spongeman

Overall for me a solid enough episode, the best finale of the new series so far.

Yes there were holes but the acting from Cribbens Tennant and Simm was very strong.

8/10

BlitzKrieg

big meh from me.

Some issues have already been mentioned and are pure RTD, others could have been fixed by some decent structuring.

the marathon of goodbyes was really overdone, and I was gnawing the chair by the time it got to Rose. Might have been better if it wasnt stacked on at the end, and perhaps toned down and at the start (to throw the viewer off) rather then dragging the end.

Also wtf happened with the Master? he seemed to just drop out or did I look away at the wrong time? He just vanished with the timelords and galifray for no reason.


While I like the idea of why the doctor gets stuck in being killed, I didnt like how it got there. It was such a clumsey way of doing it. But thats this episode in a nutshell. Clumsey, all the big reveals were very clumsey and unnatural. The last stand off with the doctor going back and forth with the gun was horrible, the dive from the sky and the getting trapped by letting out an extra...all so clumsey and badly positioned.



I take it *geronimo* is the new doctor's catchphrase?

I am sad to see David Tennant go but I am more sad that he leaves on such a downer...it might have been better if he had ended with the prior series finale...


Though I really want to see the nightmare child now sounds like a cool monster.

some bits made me laugh though. The two inches line got a good chuckle from me and the initial reaction to the knocking at the end from tennant. And of course the girl/ginger lines.

sceptre

pixelburp wrote: »

Hmm, you know, I just remembered something utterly ludicruous (other than the other ludicuous things) that happened in part 2 that no one has yet mentioned. The Doctor jumps out of a high-speed ship into the skies over the Naismith mansion, falls at speed, through a giant dome window and lands face first on the (granite) floor?

The Doctor parachutes in, sans parachute. And lives.

I think it's a final proof of RTD not giving a fook for his own internal logic when basic external physics are told to get lost too :rolleyes:

Shame the rules of physics didn't apply that way in Logopolis I guess:) And that was a grassy fall.

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

I take it *geronimo* is the new doctor's catchphrase?

It seems so. I'm not the biggest fan of catchphrases, though I do love it when a plan comes together.

spongeman

Theres a lot of overanalysis goin on here?

It was better than Parting of the ways/LOTTL/Journeys End, and we should be glad that he did'nt balls it up.

Yes there are plotholes but I found both episodes flew along nicely, and were enjoyable on the whole.

pixelburp

spongeman wrote: »

Theres a lot of overanalysis goin on here?

It was better than Parting of the ways/LOTTL/Journeys End, and we should be glad that he did'nt balls it up.

Yes there are plotholes but I found both episodes flew along nicely, and were enjoyable on the whole.

Overanalysis? On an internet forum! Gadzooks!
*monocle*

But seriously, the only reason people are over-analaysing is because the 2 parter was so badly written in every department. Situation, dialogue, internal logic, and all the rest. When something is that terrible to watch you can't help picking it apart because there are so many loose threads to pull, the jumper soon untangles thereafter.

Funnily enough I was just flicking the TV and caught Season 2's finale on WATCH. It seems such a tidy, efficient & more enjoyable story than the one just aired. Sure it has its failings too, but it all hangs together that bit better (with a superior ending / goodbye scene at that).

doctorwhogirl

Overanalysis!?!!?! It's what I live for!!

Agreed Pixelburp. Season 2's end is my favourite. I think it was wonderfully done.

I liked the ending of this one, I did. But there are big flaws. Nonetheless, it was enjoyed by me, as much as I pick at it and moan!

Thinking back on it the only goodbye I felt necessary was Jack (even though I despise the fact that every alien known to man was thrown in)
But I do think you had to have seen Children of Earth. At first glance (and when I first saw it) it was a cheap nod to Jack's sexuality. But looking back it was the Doctor giving Jack some sort of forgiveness. The little nod and the name of Alonso was his way of saying Jack can move on... After all, I think the Doctor is the only one who can really understand what Jack had to do and the only one who can offer some sort of forgiveness...

And maybe allow him to come back in a new series of Torchwood!

Daemos

spongeman wrote: »

Overall for me a solid enough episode, the best finale of the new series so far.

Yes there were holes but the acting from Cribbens Tennant and Simm was very strong.

8/10

spongeman wrote: »

Theres a lot of overanalysis goin on here?

It was better than Parting of the ways/LOTTL/Journeys End, and we should be glad that he did'nt balls it up.

Yes there are plotholes but I found both episodes flew along nicely, and were enjoyable on the whole.

Sorry spongeman but I completely disagree with 99% of what you said.

I certainly don't think it was the best finale, for me LOTTL was way better than it. In fact in my opinion it was possibly the worst finale so far. So in contrast to what you said, I think RTD completely ballsed it up. It was full of epic events that were fixed through so many cr4p ideas. All the hype about the Time Lords returning, and they're back for what, 10 minutes??? Not to mention the whole 'oh they weren't really dead, just trapped'. Utter nonsense.

I'll certainly agree that the acting was fantastic, but unfortunately that doesn't make up for the poorly-considered story. I's give it 6/10 on a generous day, I could easily score it lower.

At least the end to the episode gave Tennant a good send off, with meeting all the old companions to say goodbye, because the actual action did him no justice whatsoever.

BlitzKrieg

It was better than Parting of the ways/LOTTL/Journeys End, and we should be glad that he did'nt balls it up.

ignoring its the master again, it does have alot of similarities to season 3's finale in that season 3 had a great finale ruined by the last 10 or so minutes while this one is a crap finale somewhat saved by its last 10 or so minutes.


I rather have season 3's 80% good personnally.


Season 2 is an alright finale, it does have a good ending but it has sort of been tarnished by all its reveals being backpeddled (torchwood went good, dalek caan too, Rose came back and got her fairytale doctor wedding)

On a side note, I dont like Rose too much but I am glad they opted for him to jump back to a time before she met him in the finale rather then having him find someway around the void and seeing her married to hybrid doctor with babies etc *gag* I would have killed something if they did that.

Daemos

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

On a side note, I dont like Rose too much but I am glad they opted for him to jump back to a time before she met him in the finale rather then having him find someway around the void and seeing her married to hybrid doctor with babies etc *gag* I would have killed something if they did that.

+1, before they got that far I was thinking, 'Oh FFS, not again'. Typical RTD to be honest, we're all convinced he'll do one thing and he turns around and goes another route. At least he got it right with the Rose ending.

BlitzKrieg

also did she look more *fish* like then usual in that scene, I swear her cheeks were puffing out like those fish from the mario games...


also they need to fire the foley artist, that climax scene with the gun, he cocks it every time he turns....it got pretty stupid after the third or some time.

Killer_banana

Meant to post last night but my fecking internet wasn't working as usual. I've only read a few posts so far because they are mainly negative and I'm easily influenced so I think it's better to post my un-influenced opinion first.

I loved it. I thought it was absolutey brilliant. I said RTD usually managed to redeem himself somehow (for me anyway) and boy did he.

The 'Master Race' turned out to have very little to do with the plot but tbh I'm very very glad of that fact because even as a simple plot device it was God awful.

I didn't like the part Donna played in the story. It almost wasn't worth bringing Catherine Tate back for. And if the Doctor has given her a 'defense mechanism' all along then why was he so adamant that she never remembered. None of that really made sense it me, it seemed rushed and almost last minute but I suppose a reappearance of Wilf and no Donna wouldn't make much sense either. I did like that she got her happy ending and finally got married. It was cheesy but cheese now and then isn't so bad.

The scene where Wilf is trying to convince the Doctor to take the gun and he says 'I don't want you to die' was amazing. It was always obvious that Wilf liked the Doctor a lot and thought a lot of him but I never expected to see him in tears due to his imminent demise. And the Doctor refusing endlessly until he hears the Master's announcment. The whole 'Are we going to stop?' and sky-diving thing was very cheesy but I loved it none-the-less. It was very RTD that he arrived just that few seconds too late but I still think it worked marvelously.

I didn't like the misdirection about the Time-Lords being back when really they weren't but I did like how they were actually brought back by the Master and that they had planted the sound of drums in his head all along. Their plan to get rid of corporeal forms and become only consciousness was a bit wtf-ish but in the heat of the moment I didn't care. I loved the Doctor explaining what they had become during the Time War and I loved the Masters slow realisation at what he had actually done. Yes the Time-Lords were the 'big-bad but I don't see the problem in that. Correct me if I'm wrong but they were never that 'good' and in reality and fiction war has always driven people to ridiculous and 'evil' extremes (please realise I'm simplyfying things hence the quotation marks). I loved the juxtaposition of the Master and the President, maybe it was just me but I think it was showing that the President saw the Master as tainted yet he was just as mad. I loved the Doctor trying to decide who to shoot as well, although it was a bit drawn out. For a few moments I thought he was going to turn it on himself, it would have made no sense but it seemed like that to me.

I loved as well the moment when he thinks he's survived, that he's defeated destiny and then you hear Wilf's knocking. I found that absolutely heartbreaking. I love that all the huge, monumental moments, the return of so much had all been set-up for Wilf to get trapped in that box. Some people may see it as anti-climactic but I think it was an amazing and spectacular twist.

His regeneration was very drawn out and although I liked seeing his goodbye's to every companion and thought each one fitted each character very well (although Jack's seemed a bit superficial in comparison to the rest I thought). The whole idea was cheesy but I think it fitted Ten well. And then at his last words, I was in bits (actually I had been for quite some time but I'm an exceptionally emotional person at times so I'm guessing the average person wasn't as upset as me). I think they fit him well. Yes the Doctor has regenerated nine times before but he said it himself, th next Doctor won't be him and he wasn't the former Doctor's either, he's a different person with a different life and a different opinion of regeneration. He didn't want to de because technically he never has before. I don't see anything wrong with him not wanting to.

Then the first appearance of Matt Smith. I loved it (okay so I over-used that word in this post, I know, but I loved the episode and am too tired to think of another adjective). I thought it was hilarious. I cannot judge him as an actor or a Doctor yet obviously but I thoguht it was very good start.

So there's my overly-long, overly-praiseworthy post. I have a feeling quite a lot of you won't agree with me and complain that the episode was terribly sentimental and cheesy but I think it was a fitting end. I'm a snetimental person and everyone needs some cheese now and then. Now, it's time for me to read soem negative posts and no doubt get influened and become as cynical about RTD's writing as I usually am.:p

P.S I was thinking about who that woman might be and I have a theory. It's not very well-informed as I don't know much about Gallifrey and how past Who storylines and it's a little bit ridiculous and very cheesy but I thought I'd share it anyway. She's the Doctor's mother (I know it's sounds stupid). Her and the other person who was covering their face were made stand monument to the Doctor and the Master's shame. Their parents gave birth to and raised them so if they were deemed shameful then their parents could easily be blamed. Also it would make sense why she was trying to stop destiny from taking place and why she was crying. Okay now I've written all that down it sounds even more ludicrous, unlikely and stupid. Still I'll leave it up and see what ye think.

edit: God this is terribly long, sorry for taking up so much space. I've never been good at keeping stuff brief.

iguana

DaPoolRulz wrote: »

+1, before they got that far I was thinking, 'Oh FFS, not again'. Typical RTD to be honest, we're all convinced he'll do one thing and he turns around and goes another route. At least he got it right with the Rose ending.

They could have just left it out completely? He has said goodbye to Rose so many times it is utterly tedious and I couldn't care less about Martha and Mickey. Tennant was never Sarah-Jane's doctor so he didn't need to say goodbye to her and anyway he was in the Christmas episode of Sarah-Jane Adventures and had already said his goodbyes to her.

As far as I was concerned the scene with Jack was necessary for Jack to have any future. It could have happened in any episode since CoE but it was needed. The scene with Jessica Hynes was also nice because Tennant looked so sad when she asked if he had been happy. In a lot of ways the Doctor would have liked to have just been an ordinary man and it ties in with his affection for humanity. But neither of these scenes needed to have been after his 'death.' They could have happened in part one. He should have regenerated with Wilf immediately after his sacrifice.

qwertplaywert

As previously stated, what happened to the Master?!?


Terribly disapointing episode- how Davies can go from writing Children of Earth to dribble like this is shocking.

Doctor DooM

Just rewatching it there, and the Doctor at one point specifically says the time lords will "escape before they die". So they were timelocked just before death I think... so the "time lords are dead" thing makes a little more sense to me with that.

pixelburp

My understanding of this Time Lock malarkey was that the Time War itself - the time in which its set, the planets & settings, participants etc. - was locked off from space/time travel into it. So it has a beginning & and end, an end where the Time Lords die, but that the Lock is there so people can't travel into it (and potentially alter the outcome)

Doctor DooM

pixelburp wrote: »

My understanding of this Time Lock malarkey was that the Time War itself - the time in which its set, the planets & settings, participants etc. - was locked off from space/time travel into it. So it has a beginning & and end, an end where the Time Lords die, but that the Lock is there so people can't travel into it (and potentially alter the outcome)

Thats it exactly as I see it.

sceptre

pixelburp wrote: »

My understanding of this Time Lock malarkey was that the Time War itself - the time in which its set, the planets & settings, participants etc. - was locked off from space/time travel into it. So it has a beginning & and end, an end where the Time Lords die, but that the Lock is there so people can't travel into it (and potentially alter the outcome)

This was my understanding too. Still is. There obviously exists a time in which the Time Lords aren't dead and the war has not been completed. It's just been locked - nothing goes in, nothing comes out; nothing from inside affects outside and vice-versa.

(edit: Ha, snap with Doctor DooM)

If the series runs long enough, they'll crop up again as a plot device.

spongeman

DaPoolRulz wrote: »

Sorry spongeman but I completely disagree with 99% of what you said.

I certainly don't think it was the best finale, for me LOTTL was way better than it. In fact in my opinion it was possibly the worst finale so far. So in contrast to what you said, I think RTD completely ballsed it up. It was full of epic events that were fixed through so many cr4p ideas. All the hype about the Time Lords returning, and they're back for what, 10 minutes??? Not to mention the whole 'oh they weren't really dead, just trapped'. Utter nonsense.

I'll certainly agree that the acting was fantastic, but unfortunately that doesn't make up for the poorly-considered story. I's give it 6/10 on a generous day, I could easily score it lower.

At least the end to the episode gave Tennant a good send off, with meeting all the old companions to say goodbye, because the actual actioLn did him no justice whatsoever.

Your a tough man to do business with (joke)

LOTTL would have been good if they had not made Utopia and SOD, which I watched about 20 times each. 2 amazing episodes. I couldnt give LOTTL more than 5/10.
Actually forgot about Doomsday, which was not bad.

Wreck

Have to say I enjoyed this, think the acting was pretty top notch from the four male leads and the "I don't want to go" line brought a tear to my eye. However, there were lots of ludicrous plot holes, the science makes no sense and the stand off with the Doctor deciding who to shoot was really bad.

Cormic

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

also they need to fire the foley artist, that climax scene with the gun, he cocks it every time he turns....it got pretty stupid after the third or some time.

That drove me nuts too - I knew he would never kill somone with it so was just shouting at the screen to get on with it.

I was disappointed with both episodes. Very poor in my mind. There was far too much filler and any good moments were overshadowed with meaningless characters or situations.

Killer_banana

qwertplaywert wrote: »

As previously stated, what happened to the Master?!?

Found this on wikipedia; 'As Rassilon prepared to kill the Doctor, the Master, in an act of heroic self-sacrifice, used the last of his life-force to disable the deranged Time Lord leader before both the Time Lords and the Master vanished in a burst of white light.'

I'm confused. If he used the last of his life force then he's dead....so where's the body? Was it dragged back to the Time War with Gallifrey? Is there some way for him to regenerate or not? I'd call this a massive plot hole except it's most likely intentional so Steven Moffat can bring him back if he wants. Still it's very sloppily executed.

Doctor DooM

Killer_banana wrote: »

Found this on wikipedia; 'As Rassilon prepared to kill the Doctor, the Master, in an act of heroic self-sacrifice, used the last of his life-force to disable the deranged Time Lord leader before both the Time Lords and the Master vanished in a burst of white light.'

I'm confused. If he used the last of his life force then he's dead....so where's the body? Was it dragged back to the Time War with Gallifrey? Is there some way for him to regenerate or not? I'd call this a massive plot hole except it's most likely intentional so Steven Moffat can bring him back if he wants. Still it's very sloppily executed.

That sounds like conjecture to me.

Oh and never worry about someone being out of regenerations. I can think of three reasonably in canon ways for them to bring him back. I did assume the Master went to Gallifrey though.

Penn

Killer_banana wrote: »

Found this on wikipedia; 'As Rassilon prepared to kill the Doctor, the Master, in an act of heroic self-sacrifice, used the last of his life-force to disable the deranged Time Lord leader before both the Time Lords and the Master vanished in a burst of white light.'

I'm confused. If he used the last of his life force then he's dead....so where's the body? Was it dragged back to the Time War with Gallifrey? Is there some way for him to regenerate or not? I'd call this a massive plot hole except it's most likely intentional so Steven Moffat can bring him back if he wants. Still it's very sloppily executed.

I'd say there's 2 reasons for the Master's body disappearing.

a) Because of Lucy Saxons potion, using his new powers drains his life force, as evident when his skull shows. Using all the lightning and whatnot to fight back the Time Lords may have made more than his face disappear, it may have destroyed his whole body

b) The Master was standing in the same shot as the Time Lords when they disappeared. He may have been dragged back into the Time War with them


The problem with all the sentimentality and stuff was that it felt more like a goodbye to RTD than The Doctor. All the aliens in the bar scene. Return of the Time Lords for about 8 minutes. Everyone having a happy ending. I mean, I know RTD wanted to leave a blank slate for Moffat to work from, but some things didn't need to be finalised

And there were just too many inconsistancies. The Doctor not wanting to die, yet he jumps from a spaceship through a glazed roof with nothing to break his fall. Timothy Dalton taking about 2 days to flick his wrist. Donna's 'defense mechanism'. Wasn't it previously said that if Donna begins to remember, even for a second, she'd die? Yet between the last two episodes she began remembering twice.


Parts of the episode were fantastic. As Killer Banana said, The Doctor thinking he survived only to hear Wilf knocking on the glass was brilliantly done, even though the whole reason for the glass was pointless.


Also, I have a theory. The Doctor had to regenerate because of the nuclear radiation or whatever. Since he regenerated in the Tardis, would the radiation be what caused the damage to the Tardis? eg. the regeneration expels the radiation from his body which causes the fires and explosions

Killer_banana

Doctor DooM wrote: »

That sounds like conjecture to me.

Oh and never worry about someone being out of regenerations. I can think of three reasonably in canon ways for them to bring him back. I did assume the Master went to Gallifrey though.

Yeah I'm guessing it's an assumption but it's all I can think of that makes any sense. Then again maybe RTD meant to leave the Master's disappearance unexplained for Moffat. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

If he did live and went to Gallifrey then wouldn't that alter the history of the Time War? God I hate trying to decipher fictional time travel and time lines, I get so confused. :p

ixoy

Killer_banana wrote: »

If he did live and went to Gallifrey then wouldn't that alter the history of the Time War? God I hate trying to decipher fictional time travel and time lines, I get so confused. :p

Why bother trying to make sense of it? RTD never did. Just make it up to fit whatever you feel like and shoe-horn in some crappy plot device and stir with a sonic screw driver.

Doctor DooM

Ok ok ok.

I thought it was an episode of tremendous highs and lows.

The story was awful. Really, really awful. It felt drawn out in alot of places

There was no need for the Master race. No need for Donna. No need for the green alien things. No need for the Naimsmiths. Alot of things just happened with no explanation- Donna's regeneration-energy like sudden super power, the possible Susan/ White Guardian, etc.

The time lords were just a bad guy of the week, which was an awful waste.


I was not so pushed that Dalton was Rassilon. Death has been temporary in Dr Who before.

I did wonder if his glove was a literal reinvention of the hand of omega.

The music was just too LOUD. I mean waaay too loud. Who did the sound mixing? It was worse than ever.

The gui on the computer systems were dreadful. It's a small thing but it always sticks out to me. Computers just don't look like that.

I went huh? at him jumping out of the ship too. I thought that was going to be the cause of the regeneration.

However, I did think some things were very very good.

Much of Tennants time was top form. Mainly in the second half. I must admit to feeling a bit teary at his last line. I liked that he died saving someone "unimportant"- like a penance for his previous behaviour- I liked the quiet moments with Wilf again. the weeping angels reference made me smile.

I didn't mind the drawn out ending. I took it as the vast majority of the RTDverse being closed off. I'd say this is the last time we will see alot of these characters.

Still I would say I found about 60% of it to be-well- pretty pants. Too much melodrama, bad bad science and pointless scenes.

There was very good stuff but too thin on the ground.

Stark

Doctor DooM wrote: »

come on lads. it'd take 2 minutes to bring the time lords back now it's established they continue to exist. "oh we didn't just seed the master, we seeded gimmick-of-the-week" as well!

I for one can't wait for stories featuring the Time Lords trapped under the sea, in the earth's core, the Arctic and in Dimension X.