Steorn revolution begins with "Get Real. Get Orbo"

Kevster

If what they have done is so 'credible', then why does the science community ignore them? Perhaps I'm wrong, but this stuff isn't exactly making any headlines or research journals.

rigumagoo

Orbo is based upon time variant magnetic interactions, i.e. magnetic interactions whose efficiency varies as a function of transaction timeframes.

bonkey

Fungus wrote: »

It just needs more credible verification.

That's the problem, right there.

When Steorn made their initial claims, the science community's reaction was what it is to pretty-much every claim: Independant peer review, or it didn't happen.

Steorn made some claims about how they didn't want to go that route, because people wouldn't take them seriously enough to do the independant verification (or somesuch). Scientists publically stepped forward and said "we'll do it", and Steorn responded as one would expect....they refused.

They announced their intention to run a hand-selected, behind-closed-doors, NDA-bound review. This resulted in the reviewers unanimously saying they could not verify Steorn's claims...which was actually quite surprising. It would be a bit like the cigarette companies funding researchers who concluded that smoking was related to lung cancer.

So anyway....Steorn have continued on their merry way, and produced an example to show to the public...but still refuse to go for the independant peer review.

So its not really about whether or not there's an opaque base, or a rechargeable battery. Its not about the unlikelihood of the established laws of physics being wrong (which, to be honest, shouldn't be an issue). Its not even about letting experts take this model apart.

Its about the continued refusal to publish the functional details, and let someone else independantly verify the claims.

That's how modern science works. If you don't want to play by those rules, then you're not going to be taken seriously by modern scientists.

At that point, to anyone who's harbouring the "but what if they're right" thoughts, I can only say this...if they believe they're right, why do they not want to be taken seriously by modern scientists?

Stark

bonkey wrote:

They announced their intention to run a hand-selected, behind-closed-doors, NDA-bound review. This resulted in the reviewers unanimously saying they could not verify Steorn's claims...which was actually quite surprising. It would be a bit like the cigarette companies funding researchers who concluded that smoking was related to lung cancer.

A friend of mine is doing a PhD in physics and applied to be a reviewer. He was told he was overqualified.

Kevster

Good post bonkey. It highlights what I said: that this 'steorn' project is not about science - It's about a business and making money.

Kevin

Professor_Fink

Went in to see it today. The exploded view they have beside the device seem to show essentially a brushless motor. Case closed I think.

Kama

Did a reccy for the lulz yesterday, with few m8s. Ground rules we went in with was:

Assume Good Faith: we all consider it bollocks, but its far less amusing to go in and go 'omgwtf ur wrong ffs' than to ask the slightly more 'meta' questions to see what happens. So, highlights:

First off, shiny expensive centre, loadsa screens playing the youtube ad, receptionist+security(2)+Steorn heads(2), and the fabled Orbo + Battery(2)

Began with the general 'explanation', toroidal magnets, 1800rpm, and a lot of emphasis for some reason on not generating torque. Definite evasion on whether it was ever practically possible to run one without an external 'reservoir' aka a battery. Constant mildly condescending 'let me say this simpler' to our team theoretical physicist, and 'i don't know about your basic physical laws so much, I just know how to build one from an engineering standpoint' replies. Openly admitted that the setup there would convince no-one of an engineering or science background, but was there as a 'conversation starter'. Presumably to start a conversation with people of no scientific background?

I asked (as our official delegation Pirate Party spokesman why they had not gone the open source tell-the-world option, and how they thought the method could be contained in an info-wants-to-be-free scenario, or against needs such as national security that would (given the techs worldchanging importance) override legal IP/licensing/commercial angle. Eg, the US or China wants one to power their railgun/achieve energy security.

Reply was anyone using it for commercial or state use without licensing would be sued into the ground by their well-prepared IP lawyers. Mixed signals on the small indie pirate-operators.

On the way out, asked what the cost of joining the development team was, told the 419 euros. Advised that in PR terms, it might not be a good idea to have the cost be the code for Nigerian bank fraud, that it might send all the wrong impressions


So, possibilities as we see them:

1: Self-delusion: There is an effect, almost certainly an artifact, and they went 'wowz0r!'

2: VC Scam: There are some dumbass rich people, who are being suckered.

3: PR Proof: 'Look how much media attention we got'

4: Ancillary Revenue: Lets sell some weird overpriced junk off the back of our brand strength.


I find 1 credible, purely because I think people have a near-limitless capacity for self-delusion. 3 would make sense in the short-term, but this long after it does make me wonder about the 'any publicity is good publicity' angle. Steorn are now worldknown, but as muppets. 4 doesn't seem to cover the costs of what they are doing. A couple of 400 euros and knickknack revenue versus their expenditures?

My money is on a mix of 1 and 2...

Vergast

Wandered down on monday, got myself my free t-shirt (WOO go steorn ya!).

I can conclude they are either a bunch of somewhat clever scammers, or very naive engineers. Constantly they referred to themselves being engineers and not scientists, and how they were a company and not in it for the science. I did get one of them to say it is definitely not a scam on the live feed, could be fun..

Lots of physics buzz-words being thrown at me, and he also seemed to take newtons laws as a scientific thing, beyond his engineering scope. An engineer who doesn't understand newtons laws is a strange one indeed.

Strangely soon after discussing where the energy came from he stated that the universe has a fixed finite amount of energy in it....odd

swampgas

Odd things from the video:
(1) They didn't install a simple cross-over switch to reverse the current to the motor. Why have somebody rewire a connector block every time? To buy time? To pad out the demo? To surreptitiously connect different wires? Bizarre.
(2) Why not have the tacho permanently connected? That would make more sense than wheeling out the tacho just once to record the motor speed.
(3) This is the stand-out thing for me: why use somebody's finger to brake the disk? Never mind that we can't even see the finger being applied! Hardly scientific. (Never mind any health and safety issues ...:D)

Typically applying a load to a motor slows the motor and increases the current drawn. If the current drawn is not changing, I suspect the man with the finger rather than the known laws of physics.

Azelfafage

My girlfriend says:

"If you are so clever how come you are not rich."

Steorn are not very clever............

.

ei.sdraob

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

I have nothing further to add to this thread, since it's contributers have brought it to the level of repeated personal insults.

I'm entitled to my opinion, and your entitled to yours. I've insulted no one!

Goodluck.

you are of course entitled to your opinion

but if your opinion goes against the basic laws of physics, then you are plain wrong

if you have a problem with the laws of physics then i suggest you jump of a cliff and check for yourself whether they work

zod

On February 1st things change. To access the SKDB you have to pay a license fee and the cheapest license (Developer License) is €419.00. According to Steorn commercial licenses are going to be available in the 2nd quarter in 2010 but fees have not yet been disclosed. So finally Steorn hopes to start generating revenues.

http://www.freeenergytimes.com/?p=202

zod

We will be placing a system in the Waterways and will allow people to bring their own test equipment (or use ours) – and you can test a system the way you see fit. Note that all tests like this will be done under the supervision of one of engineers – this is simply to prevent someone who might want to break a system apart. However no reasonable request will be refused.

Sean

http://www.freeenergytimes.com/?p=239

zod

Subject: Steorn's Orbo Electromagnetic Interaction COP >1

When: Friday 8th January 2010

Time: 17:00 GMT

Where: www.steorn.com - Live Stream View 1 and 3

Or

In person at the Waterways Ireland Visitor Centre,
Grand Canal Dock, Dublin 4, Ireland.

Directions: http://www.steorn.com/demo/


Description:

Sean McCarthy, CEO of Steorn, will discuss Steorn’s Orbo electromagnetic interaction and
demonstrate that the Coefficient of Performance is greater than 1.

weedfreedomtinp

we visited the steorn on tuesday ..

we went in had a look at the device ,

we also seen Sean McCarthy there , so i thought id ask a few questions .. we asked how practical the device was ,

he explained the device needed a lot of engineering skills and time to do more with it and he had brought the device as far as he could ,, and the device on display was just a gimmick.

i got the impression that he just wanted to sell licenses to let you tinker with it your self, but whos really gona pay 400€ just to have his plans when you can get plans for free on the net..

we also asked him
how much overtunity hes getting from the device he said 3 times

i dont fully under stand science and how this lot works ,

but if what hes saying is true then why has he not developed a bigger machine and proved that his theory works on a bigger scale ,
because scienctists are never gona look at a gimmick ,,

sean all the best but you need to do more to make people beleive its not a scam ,,

profitius

Ever hear of Nikola Tesla? The greatest mind that ever existed. He invented free energy machines etc but died in poverty and his papers disappeared after his death. The trillion dollar oil industry would go bust if there was a free energy device invented. If people think they wouldn't try to do anything then you're being very naive.


Nobody knows all the answers of the universe so its a bit closed minded for scientists to say theres no such thing as an over unity device just because thats their current understanding. Many years ago people were hanged for saying the earth was round because it went against the understanding of the time.


Steorn may or may not have something. They seem confident and also stopped taking any more investment money so it can't all be down to money. We'll know more in the coming days.

Professor_Fink

profitius wrote: »

Ever hear of Nikola Tesla? The greatest mind that ever existed. He invented free energy machines etc

Nonsense.

profitius wrote: »

Nobody knows all the answers of the universe so its a bit closed minded for scientists to say theres no such thing as an over unity device just because thats their current understanding. Many years ago people were hanged for saying the earth was round because it went against the understanding of the time.

It is true that nobody knows everything there is to know about the laws of the universe, but that is only part of the story. Some people (let's call them, say, "scientists") know a great deal more than others (lets call these, say, "lay men"). Not knowing everything does not mean we know nothing. One thing we do know is that for essentially any well behaved physical theory, perpetual motion is impossible (from Noether's theorem). Everything we know about the physical universe, everything we have discovered through more than 3000 years of learning, points to Steorn not having built a perpetual motion machine.

Honestly I don't know what it is with some people. Some company claims an impossible technology (perpetual motion, a compression algorithm that can compress any input, an engine which can accelerate a closed system), and fanboys fall over them selves to call scientists idiots. After all, what have scientists ever given us? ..... Oh yes, the entire modern world.

Gurgle

profitius wrote: »

Many years ago people were hanged for saying the earth was round because it went against the understanding of the time.

Not even remotely true.

There was never an 'understanding' that the earth was flat, this is just makey-uppy crap for kids. When Columbus headed west to find India, it seemed silly because it was the long and dangerous way.

profitius

Professor_Fink wrote: »

Nonsense.


It is true that nobody knows everything there is to know about the laws of the universe, but that is only part of the story. Some people (let's call them, say, "scientists") know a great deal more than others (lets call these, say, "lay men"). Not knowing everything does not mean we know nothing. One thing we do know is that for essentially any well behaved physical theory, perpetual motion is impossible (from Noether's theorem). Everything we know about the physical universe, everything we have discovered through more than 3000 years of learning, points to Steorn not having built a perpetual motion machine.

Honestly I don't know what it is with some people. Some company claims an impossible technology (perpetual motion, a compression algorithm that can compress any input, an engine which can accelerate a closed system), and fanboys fall over them selves to call scientists idiots. After all, what have scientists ever given us? ..... Oh yes, the entire modern world.

I've no problem with people saying its highly unlikely that steorn are onto something. When people turn around and say "its impossible" then they're presuming they know everything which clearly they don't so therefore they're pretending they know.


And also lets not presume that scientists never get things wrong.


As for Tesla, well thats your opinion which is fine. Theres been numerous of strange things happen that science can't explain.


I'm basically saying that the best scientists are the ones that have an open mind.

Turtwig

profitius wrote: »

I'm basically saying that the best scientists are the ones that have an open mind.

Having an open mind in science also requires use of the aspect of critical thinking. Apply that to Steorn and see where it takes you.

Tears in Rain

"'It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out."

Carl Sagan

Professor_Fink

Tears in Rain wrote: »

"'It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out."

Carl Sagan

I was just going to dig up that quote!

Turtwig

Professor_Fink wrote: »

I was just going to dig up that quote!

I've just added it my quote bank.:)

zod

Demo 2

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib9u811WXJU

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtKHo9dKHtQ

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gTyS_RKLXc

Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSa-Mcd24Ac

aligator_am

In fairness, I'm no scientist, but I was wondering why there had been no posts on here since the vids went up? I'm neither for nor against this gang, just figured there would be loads of replies savaging them??? or maybe there's another thread that I didn't spot?

Anyway, I'm a lay man, would like to know what you all thought of this.

thebman

Not really enough information so far I guess. Nothing much has been said despite 20 minutes of video lol.

I think people will reserve judgement until all tests are out there or they slip up bad.

Podge_irl

aligator_am wrote: »

Anyway, I'm a lay man, would like to know what you all thought of this.

It's a pile of bollocks.

Morbert

aligator_am wrote: »

In fairness, I'm no scientist, but I was wondering why there had been no posts on here since the vids went up? I'm neither for nor against this gang, just figured there would be loads of replies savaging them??? or maybe there's another thread that I didn't spot?

Anyway, I'm a lay man, would like to know what you all thought of this.

They won't let scientists near it. Those videos are just a guy talking.

Also, what Podge said.

Gurgle

thebman wrote: »

I think people will reserve judgement until all tests are out there or they slip up bad.

Not me anyway, judgement made long ago and its all over bar the pointing and laughing.

pH

It's a bizarre video, really bizarre, and based on it I find it really hard to believe they're deluding themselves any more.

I liked how he said he was claiming a "coefficient of performance > 1" but wouldn't claim "over unity" until he presented the evidence, but he never produced any evidence for CoP > 1. Why CoP? It's primarily a term used when talking about efficiency of refrigeration systems or heat pumps, Google it yourself.

What follows is a lot of talking about back (or counter EMF), and playing around with oscilloscopes.

What they really need to be doing is something like this:
http://mercury.pr.erau.edu/~greta9a1/students/courses/ps216/labmanual/PS216%20Manual%20--%20Lab11.pdf - something that anyone doing Leaving cert physics could understand and perform.

They seem to be saying that they know their motor is 200%+ efficient, it's just that they can't build one to show you, for that you'll need a billion dollar production facility.

They need to do less playing with oscilloscopes and more lifting weights.

In Sean's mind he'd have like that press conference/demonstration to have been full of international media, instead (and no offence to anyone who here who may have attended) it was attended mainly by some interested anoraks.

Hopefully the media won't be taken in again, they said they had a revolutionary product, they said they would convene a panel of expert scientists who in a short timescale would validate their claims, this never happened and they're reduced to fiddling with scopes on youtube.