Steorn revolution begins with "Get Real. Get Orbo"

zod

A promo by Steorn for their Orbo technology. Apparently they are going to demo their technology sometime during the week commencing 14th December 2009:

They've rented out the old Waterways Building in Dublin and are currently projecting ads onto an old factory next door. Apparently they will be streaming a "live" demo of their magic-beans-powered device. They are currently setting up a lot of lights, equipment etc in and around the building.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTAEWpEmt5Y

Link to pics of building : http://i.imgur.com/x2EFd.jpg , http://imgur.com/EBLQM

As homer would say

npc_100

zod wrote: »

They are currently setting up a lot of lights, equipment etc in and around the building.

Well they do need something to blame if it doesn't work......

sink

npc_100 wrote: »

Well they do need something to blame if when it doesn't work......

fyp

daragh8008

Haven’t been following what these guys have been up to but did they ever announce the results from there authentication period? Surely if they have half a dozen independent scientists saying this is good then they won’t need to self promo that much.

Azelfafage

You cannot defeat the Second Law of Thermodynamics unless you re-write all the textbooks of physics.

Richard Tolman pointed that out as long ago as 1934 in his classic book "Cosmology".

For instance:

Those who say that the universe can "bounce" forever do no understand the Second Law.

Even a bouncing universe.....(Big Bang..Big Crunch etc.)

The bounces MUST run down, by all the laws of physics,as known at present.


.

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zod

Steorn sets up for second bite at perpetual cherry

zod

live now !!! http://www.steorn.com/

Procasinator

daragh8008 wrote: »

Haven’t been following what these guys have been up to but did they ever announce the results from there authentication period? Surely if they have half a dozen independent scientists saying this is good then they won’t need to self promo that much.

The Jury announced independently theat the device was not confirmed:
http://gizmodo.com/5301033/independent-jury-rules-on-steorns-free-energy-machine-guilty-of-not-working

The live stream is up now, as well as a diagram of the rig.

http://www.steorn.com/demo/rig/

I don't understand why the need a battery.

privateBeavis

The free energy money they are after is the plebs who are going to fork out 400 odd for a licence to build their own battery powered spinning thingy.

mike65

Is this going to be another embarrassing moment for Ireland in 2009?

Podge_irl

Procasinator wrote: »

I don't understand why the need a battery.

Just a guess, for probably cause their free energy device is a whole load of bollocks.

Procasinator

Podge_irl wrote: »

Just a guess, for probably cause their free energy device is a whole load of bollocks.

Good guess.

Manhog

Firstly I'm no physicist and I know little of thermodynamics.

What I will say however is that the science community in Ireland owes it to themselves to either a) completely debunk this technology or b) verify it and roll in behind it.

What you have here is a company which is generating a substantial amount of PR and coverage internationally. That coverage must be influencing a common understanding of Ireland's scientific output and standards.

Surely there is a peer review protocol to be followed here?

In any event the jury dismissed Steorn's claims earlier this year, so why has Steorn not accepted that?

http://gizmodo.com/5301033/independent-jury-rules-on-steorns-free-energy-machine-guilty-of-not-working

Podge_irl

Manhog wrote: »

In any event the jury dismissed Steorn's claims earlier this year, so why has Steorn not accepted that?

Cause they're off their rockers and think they can still convince enough people that it works to earn/scam some money out of the whole thing.

Procasinator

Procasinator wrote: »

I don't understand why the need a battery.

As far as I can tell, from one of the Video's, the battery is used as an energy reserve with the device constantly charging it. Possibly due to the system not providing a fluid enough current though thats just a guess.

scargill

what are steorn getting out this?

how do they earn their money?

what is the purpose of their demo - is this machine supposed to run continuously over the few week period ?

chem

If they are producing power, why are they not then, using the power to run somthing at the demo? Wouldnt be long showing how long this "magic" energy would last. (before the battery dies)

scargill

Steorn's perpetual motion machine. Battery included

scargill

scargill wrote: »

what are steorn getting out this?

how do they earn their money?

They will make their money from license fees on any product built with orbo tech in it.

scargill wrote: »

what is the purpose of their demo - is this machine supposed to run continuously over the few week period ?

I presume so

chem

If they were even powering an LED id be abit more impressed. But its just a spinning disc

Procasinator

They sell low-friction bearings and highly accurate (as in measure magnetism) magnets. I've been told (and it has often been reported) it is just a PR stunt to get there name out there. Considering they announced this technology in 2006, I surprised they are still with us today with the same claim.

djk1000

There are people around the world with deep pockets and not much understanding of science. Lets say you're a billionaire, why not throw €500,000 to these guys, just in case, take a punt on it being real. If Steorn can keep it plausible enough to entice a handful of people to take a punt on investing, then they'll keep it going for a while yet.

djk1000

djk1000 wrote: »

There are people around the world with deep pockets and not much understanding of science. Lets say you're a billionaire, why not throw €500,000 to these guys, just in case, take a punt on it being real. If Steorn can keep it plausible enough to entice a handful of people to take a punt on investing, then they'll keep it going for a while yet.

Good point. But they are not looking for investors, as far as I know they are supposed to have plenty of € in the bank. If it was a scam they would have leggered ages ago with that €.

scargill

chem wrote: »

If they were even powering an LED id be abit more impressed. But its just a spinning disc

no the battery is spinning the motor and the motor is charging the battery and the battery is spinning the motor and the motor is charging the battery....

from steorn website:

How Orbo Technology Works
Orbo is based upon time variant magnetic interactions, i.e. magnetic interactions whose efficiency varies as a function of transaction timeframes.
It is this variation of energy exchanged as a function of transaction time frame that lies at the heart of Orbo technology, and its ability to contravene the principle of the conservation of energy. Why? Conservation of energy requires that the total energy exchanged using interactions are invariant in time. This principle of time invariance is enshrined in Noether’s Theorem.
The time variant nature of Orbo interactions can be engineered using two basic techniques. The first technique utilizes a method of controlling the response time of magnetic materials to make them time variant. This is achieved by controlling the MH position of materials during permanent magnetic interactions.
The second technique decouples the Counter Electromotive Force (CEMF) from torque for electromagnetic interactions. This decoupling of CEMF allows time variant magnetic interactions in electromagnetic systems.


sounds great! I'll have a box of decouped CEMFs please.

pH

Steorn Orbo livestream begins: Look, fairies!

swampgas

Manhog wrote: »

Firstly I'm no physicist and I know little of thermodynamics.

What I will say however is that the science community in Ireland owes it to themselves to either a) completely debunk this technology or b) verify it and roll in behind it.

<snip>

"Extraordinary Claims Demand Extraordinary Proof."

Well, I'm an engineer and know quite a bit about physics, motors, electronics and thermodynamics.

To anyone with a scientific background (well - a physics or engineering background anyway) what Steorn are claiming is that the accepted laws of physics are wrong, and not just in a minor "tiny tweak to correct it" way.

It's a bit like claiming to have invented an anti-gravity device or a time machine. If true, the implications would be far more significant than the prospect of free energy. Any scientist who had actually managed what Steorn are claiming would be rushing to publish the details and claim the Nobel prize.

The scientific community of Ireland should waste very little time attempting to debunk or prove their claims. This is clearly a very elaborate hoax.

gpjordanf1

Everybody is very quick to jump on the band wagon and say its all rubbish. What if it isn't? Is this the true nature of the Irish to instantly begrudge our own?

How would you go about this if it is true? How would you convince the world? Peer review is out the window as nobody would touch the claim with a barge pole? As far as I know nobody has tried to bring free energy in a open fashion?

Anyway its day one right? This is on public display just a few miles away from alot of people, go have a look and report back? Be skeptical, take pictures, if its a hoax you should be able to prove that fairly quick? Right?

And is our understanding of science today the end? Is there no more we can discover? Seems to me people in scientific community are very closed? Then whats CERN all about? Are they just proving what we already know?

I myself will be going to look at the display in the New Year, dont fancy Dublin on the run up to xmas.

Exciting times, Good luck Steorn, hope its true.

PS the Jury didn't even build a device, so how coud they say it cant work? Strange eh?

Podge_irl

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

Is this the true nature of the Irish to instantly begrudge our own?

I assure it, this has absolutely nothing to do with them being Irish.

As far as I know nobody has tried to bring free energy in a open fashion?

In an open fashion? Nobody has managed to bring it because all the laws of physics as we know them say that it is impossible. Plenty of people have tried - its probably one of the most commonly investigated areas by laymen.

And is our understanding of science today the end? Is there no more we can discover? Seems to me people in scientific community are very closed? Then whats CERN all about? Are they just proving what we already know?

Obviously our understanding at the moment is not the end. In fact, its demonstrably not complete. But this flies in the face of basically everything we know about science already. Its up to Steorn to give a concrete, convincing reason to take them seriously, which they have massively failed to do.

Anyway its day one right? This is on public display just a few miles away from alot of people, go have a look and report back?

Its a motor powered by a battery. It could be running a month from now and it still wouldn't mean anything.

gpjordanf1

Podge_irl wrote: »

I assure it, this has absolutely nothing to do with them being Irish.

It still is probable

Podge_irl wrote: »

In an open fashion? Nobody has managed to bring it because all the laws of physics as we know them say that it is impossible. Plenty of people have tried - its probably one of the most commonly investigated areas by laymen.

Yes in a open fashion, would you ecxpect them to give up their IP just to say theres proof were right, oh wait we lose everything we've invested in? Not a good business move. They are after all running a business.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Obviously our understanding at the moment is not the end. In fact, its demonstrably not complete. But this flies in the face of basically everything we know about science already. Its up to Steorn to give a concrete, convincing reason to take them seriously, which they have massively failed to do.

they have put their prototype on public display, thats a huge step forward in the free energy game. How many have done that before?

Podge_irl wrote: »

Its a motor powered by a battery. It could be running a month from now and it still wouldn't mean anything.

And what will you say if its still running, one month, two months, three months from now? At the same speed? What then, obviously a prolonged hoax?

If its using energy from a store then it will deminish and slow over time, if not then its being replinished, then we have a good problem!

I am very curious about this, because for one side or another its an end game! Wouldn't you say. And the clock is ticking!

Podge_irl

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

Yes in a open fashion, would you ecxpect them to give up their IP just to say theres proof were right, oh wait we lose everything we've invested in? Not a good business move. They are after all running a business.

There are such things as patents you know. They're never going to be taken seriously on this when they continue to be so vague and mysterious about it. The burden of proof is on them, not the scientific community - we have mountains of data backing up the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

And what will you say if its still running, one month, two months, three months from now? At the same speed? What then, obviously a prolonged hoax?

Not obviously a hoax, but more than likely. I imagine it'll stop at some point and they'll blame the lights again or something.

ZorbaTehZ

Why do people bother even discussing this... ignore them, and they will eventually go away.

gpjordanf1

Podge_irl wrote: »

There are such things as patents you know. They're never going to be taken seriously on this when they continue to be so vague and mysterious about it. The burden of proof is on them, not the scientific community - we have mountains of data backing up the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Yes and they have applied for patents and have some granted,not on a OU device but on the applications of bringing it all together.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Not obviously a hoax, but more than likely. I imagine it'll stop at some point and they'll blame the lights again or something.

Ah yes, well back to my original point, good old begrudgary, even if it works well beyond the probable battery life and even if its working at the original speed, then fails. Its a hoax, because of lights or some other lame get out of jail card. Is this how the scientific community want to deal with this?

the_syco

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

they have put their prototype on public display, thats a huge step forward in the free energy game. How many have done that before?

At least three people. Nice inventions, but with no way to convert the energy made into electicity.

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

Yes and they have applied for patents and have some granted,not on a OU device but on the applications of bringing it all together.

They say they have a working OU device, but they don't patent it.

scargill wrote: »

how do they earn their money?

Would this be a good way for gangs, etc, to launder money?

gpjordanf1

the_syco wrote: »

At least three people. Nice inventions, but with no way to convert the energy made into electicity.

Any links?

the_syco wrote: »

They say they have a working OU device, but they don't patent it.

The US patent office wont accept a patent for an OU device without a working OU device, so how can ya patent it? And from my reading of Steorn they are not interested in a patent for a particular device but rather the methodology and application.

And at this point they dont "say", but infact they "have" a working OU divice and its on public display in Dublin.

Professor_Fink

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

And at this point they dont "say", but infact they "have" a working OU divice and its on public display in Dublin.

Bull! They say they have a perpetual motion machine of the first kind. I'm not going to soften it by using terms like "over unity", they are claiming perpetual motion. They have something on display, but there is no way to verify that it is not powered from an external source. My understanding is that the bottom is suspiciously opaque.

They are claiming to violate every known model we have for how the physical world works. So I ask you, which is more likely: That physicists have been completely wrong about physics for the last 200 years, or that the Steorn device doesn't quite live up to Steorn's claims?

If your answer is that physicists have consistently misunderstood classical electromagnetism, then I think we are done. There is no use in arguing, since that is a ridiculous position (because, for example, the computer you are posting from works).

privateBeavis

Ok I dropped into Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium to see it in the flesh. What did impress me was the 10,000 mAh NiMH batteries they use to keep the wheel spinning, if I used them in my model planes I could fly forever probably

But apart from that I'm unconvinced, I did ask a Steorn guy to cut the wire to the battery to see if it would keep spinning but he wasn't having any of it.

oh yeah and of course the free steorn t-shirt on the way out almost made the trip worth it.

the_syco

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

Any links?

I'll dig them up. They came up when we were discussing Tesla in one of the forums.

mikhail

gpjordanf1, they had their panel of independent experts. That panel found jack-****. As Sagan said, scientists have to be open minded, but not to the point of being gullible.

chem

Professor_Fink wrote: »

My understanding is that the bottom is suspiciously opaque.

Its to hide the hamsters running in their wheels :D

zod

Professor_Fink wrote: »

They are claiming to violate every known model we have for how the physical world works. So I ask you, which is more likely: That physicists have been completely wrong about physics for the last 200 years, or that the Steorn device doesn't quite live up to Steorn's claims?

If your answer is that physicists have consistently misunderstood classical electromagnetism, then I think we are done. There is no use in arguing, since that is a ridiculous position (because, for example, the computer you are posting from works).

It is possible (however small) that the device is harnessing some power source that is unknown and therefore not included when balancing out the equation.

I doubt Steorns claims, its probably a hoax and should be treated with every scrap of scepticism available.

But to say that an observed phenomenon that doesn't fit with known physics can never be true unless you throw everything you know in the bin is slightly arrogant.

I have no doubt that in reality the future will be vastly more surprising than anything I can imagine. Now my own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose - J. B. S. Haldane.

gpjordanf1

Professor_Fink wrote: »

Bull! They say they have a perpetual motion machine of the first kind. I'm not going to soften it by using terms like "over unity", they are claiming perpetual motion. They have something on display, but there is no way to verify that it is not powered from an external source. My understanding is that the bottom is suspiciously opaque.

Bull, please explain? How do you jump to that conclusion? Have you access to the data? have you run tests in your lab? What is this external source? Some sort of wireless power? Or this this a preimtive strike in case the battery is still going two months down the road. So your understanding is the base is opaque, which means that its a hoax of course. So you haven't seen it in person?

Professor_Fink wrote: »

They are claiming to violate every known model we have for how the physical world works. So I ask you, which is more likely: That physicists have been completely wrong about physics for the last 200 years, or that the Steorn device doesn't quite live up to Steorn's claims?

No they are not, dont be so dramatic. They are claiming a small anomoly in magnetics. They are harnessing a small magnetic interaction which is time dependant, my understanding.

Professor_Fink wrote: »

If your answer is that physicists have consistently misunderstood classical electromagnetism, then I think we are done. There is no use in arguing, since that is a ridiculous position (because, for example, the computer you are posting from works).

Nobody but you have said that physicists have consistently misunderstood classical electromagnetism, I have said they have found a SMALL anomoly with magnets.
The world is still turning, the sun still rising. No big deal.

gpjordanf1

mikhail wrote: »

gpjordanf1, they had their panel of independent experts. That panel found jack-****. As Sagan said, scientists have to be open minded, but not to the point of being gullible.

THey didn't even build the rig? how is that valid scientific research? How can you test a system without building it.

So inturn their opinion isn't worth jac-*****!

sink

gpjordanf1 I don't think you grasp the magnitude of Steorns claims. It would possibly be the greatest scientific breakthrough since Newton discovered the laws of gravity. If what they claim is true then the entire body of scientific knowledge humanity has accumulated to date is founded on false principles and would have to be redressed in it's entirety.

This is not a matter of a "SMALL anomoly with magnets", it is the equivalent of discovering time flowing backwards.

npc_100

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

THey didn't even build the rig? how is that valid scientific research? How can you test a system without building it.

So inturn their opinion isn't worth jac-*****!

Unfair to blame the panel, they could only work with what they were given access to and that certainly did not include a working device, or plans on how to build one.

If Steorn want to be taken seriously, they should now get the same independent team they selected before and let them in to examine the device now that it is built.

swampgas

What someone unfamiliar with physics can miss is the precise meaning of the term "Energy" as used by science. Energy has many other meanings in everyday use and this (I believe) causes confusion.

Remember that Energy (the scientific version) and Mass (matter) are equivalent - as described by E=mc^2. When Steorn claim to be able to create "free energy", they are effectively saying that they can magic new matter out of thin air.

Maybe looking at in terms of matter being created out of nothing (rather than the fluffier concept of "free energy") will help explain why Steorn's claims seem so far-fetched to those of us with a background in science.

chem

the_syco wrote: »

At least three people. Nice inventions, but with no way to convert the energy made into electicity.

Well if you have something spinning (for free) weld a rod to it, and at the other end place a ball of copper. Around the ball of copper, place magnets. "or is it the other way round?" Spinning stuff makes eletricty, same as hydro electric power stations, or any other power station for that matter.

sink

chem wrote: »

Well if you have something spinning (for free) weld a rod to it, and at the other end place a ball of copper. Around the ball of copper, place magnets. "or is it the other way round?" Spinning stuff makes eletricty, same as hydro electric power stations, or any other power station for that matter.

In other words a dynamo.

leaba

chem wrote: »

Well if you have something spinning (for free) weld a rod to it, and at the other end place a ball of copper. Around the ball of copper, place magnets. "or is it the other way round?" Spinning stuff makes eletricty, same as hydro electric power stations, or any other power station for that matter.

If you got a magic wand (for free) you could just hey presto a battery

Podge_irl

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

Nobody but you have said that physicists have consistently misunderstood classical electromagnetism, I have said they have found a SMALL anomoly with magnets.
The world is still turning, the sun still rising. No big deal.

Nobody but him and Steorn.

If Steorn's claims were correct then it would be anything but a small anomaly. It would be violating one of the most fundamental laws of physics.

They may as well be claiming they've invented an anti-gravity device.

leaba

I'm sitting on an anti-gravity device

Turtwig

Podge_irl wrote: »

They may as well be claiming they've invented an anti-gravity device.

That would be coolest thing ever!!:D
*Dreams*