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Would you accept an active homosexual priest in your parish?

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    #62
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Why do you think that is? Genuine question.

    Because purity and holiness is about more than just avoiding commiting sin in case you get caught. It's about having a genuine love for God and desiring to do His will.


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    #63
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    No I don't. But I don't believe all priests are repentant either. So how do you know who is the sinner and who isn't?
    Christians believe that God is the only true judge.
    So the answer to your question is, they don't.


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    #64
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    So just to confirm, do the Christians here believe it's okay for a priest to be gay, even though he may fantasize on occasion, thus making him a sinner?

    Everybody is born a sinner, born out of fellowship with God, alienated from the source of life, destined to die a physical death, be they priests, bishops, popes, whatever. You don't have to be gay to be a sinner, you're a sinner because you're a sinner.

    "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5

    That was David the King of Israel who said that. Conceived in sin. So before he even came out of the gate the deck was already stacked against him, and its the same for everyone.

    "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23

    So being gay is not what makes you a sinner. You're already a sinner, as is everyone else. Performing homo sexual acts is not beyond God's forgiveness anyway, it is not the worst sin imaginable. God hates judging more that homos sexual behavior. That is condemed more than all other acts of men.

    "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things." Romans 2:1-2

    "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matthew 7:1-2


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    #65
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    PDN wrote: »
    Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse?

    No I'm not, but if Christianity were a movie it would have more plot holes than all of Jerry Bruckheimer's movies combined, so it's sometimes hard not to be obtuse, with all due respect.


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    #66
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    No I'm not, but if Christianity were a movie it would have more plot holes than all of Jerry Bruckheimer's movies combined, so it's sometimes hard not to be obtuse, with all due respect.

    And I suggest, with all due respect, that you read the Forum Charter. Try sneaking in an attack on our faith like that again and you will out of here faster than you can say 'Boring troll'.


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    #67
    lmaopml
    Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    No I don't. But I don't believe all priests are repentant either. So how do you know who is the sinner and who isn't?


    Well, MagicMarker anybody who is Christian doesn't claim to be the judge of their brother or sister.....We have a calling and it's to try our utmost to emulate Jesus with regards treating our fellow man....We don't always get it right, but we try to be compassionate with regards our common humanity.....

    ..We don't believe we are 'fully' qualified..but submit it to God above.

    'I don't believe all priests are repentant either...'

    Your presumtion is rather simplistic and to be honest who is anybody to know the relationship one has with God?? What you believe doesn't make it so...

    I imagine the torment is awful...but nonetheless the guy should NOT have been frequenting ( if it's true ) where he was. He was representing purity, and pure is what he is called to be...

    ...However, I do accept that he is only human, and I don't 'hate' him. I leave it up to God to judge, not me.


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    #68
    kisaragi
    Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭kisaragi


    I'm not a Christian but I think this is an interesting topic. Personally I think gay priests who engage in gay sex are woefully hypocritical, you knew the rules when you signed up. I'm gay myself, and naturally I don't think there's anything wrong with homosexuality, but priests who sleep around disgust me in the same way that married men/women who cheat on their partners do for example.

    But anyway, on the point of dwelling on fantasy being a sin, not just carrying out the act, is masturbating while fantasizing about someone as much of a sin (or a sin at all) as actually carrying it out? Does it break the rules of celibacy? Priests are human so I think it's safe to assume that most of them do this.


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    #69
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    kisaragi wrote: »
    Does it break the rules of celibacy? Priests are human so I think it's safe to assume that most of them do this.

    Masturbating and fantasizing aren't actually an inherent part of being human you know?


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    #70
    kisaragi
    Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭kisaragi


    PDN wrote: »
    Masturbating and fantasizing aren't actually an inherent part of being human you know?

    Sexual relief is. I don't know a single person who doesn't masturbate or have sex regularly.

    Oh and todolist, I know it's against Christian morals but homosexuality is not against nature, commonly occurs in the animal kingdom etc. etc.


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    #71
    jaffa20
    Registered Users Posts: 4,525 ✭✭✭jaffa20


    PDN wrote: »
    Jimi, I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say.

    Fantasizing and dwelling on the thought of any sin is, according to Jesus, sinful. If I wanted to murder my next door neighbour, and spent every day imagining how much fun it would be to kill him, then that would be sinful - even if I was sufficiently afraid of the cops to refrain from actually killing my neighbour.

    The same goes for homosexual behaviour. Feeling attracted to someone of the same sex (or indeed anyone of the opposite sex who is not a feasible marriage partner) is not sinful. But homosexual acts, or adulterous acts, are sinful. And, according to Jesus, it would be sinful to spend all day fantasizing about those acts, even if you never acted out those fantasies.

    That's a bit unfair if it is in someone's nature. I thought it would be acting upon the act that would be conceived as sinfu in the eyes of a christianl. Restraining from it would show strength. But in my eyes, i don't see any harm in acting upon a natural urge and desire or love for another human being irrespective of sex as long as it's between consenting adults.

    Also i know a priest from my diocese who is openly homosexual. This happened after he was caught in an inappropriate location in male toilets. He was simply removed from his particular parish and transferred to another.

    Many members of the community are aware of this and have nothing against him. They still see him a the kind, genuine man that he was before. We will never know if he acted on the desire. But that is his own business imho and many people can understand that.


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    #72
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Phototoxin


    love the sinner hate the sin?

    The church is in dire straights. I woulnd't accept an active homosexual as he'd be in mortal sin according to the RCC and so wouldnt be able to perform many priestly duties.


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    #73
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    jaffa20 wrote: »
    That's a bit unfair if it is in someone's nature. I thought it would be acting upon the act that would be conceived as sinfu in the eyes of a christianl. Restraining from it would show strength. But in my eyes, i don't see any harm in acting upon a natural urge and desire or love for another human being irrespective of sex as long as it's between consenting adults.

    Well, you seem to equate fairness with being allowed to follow ones sexual desires willy-nilly! I would contend that self-gratification - be it sexual or otherwise - is not a key component of fairness. Besides, from a theological perspective, one could ask the question: are we being fair to God?

    If a non-Christian wants to break a tenet of Christianity that's their choice. I'm struggling to put this into words that don't come across as apathetic or uncaring, but from the perspective of these people, I don't see what motivation they would have for altering their lifestyle to fit in with Christianity. First and foremost, I believe that Christians should emphasise the positives about faith in Christ. Tackling all this this messy business comes later.

    However, this does become an issue if this same person happens to be in a position of authority in the church. We all know (or can imagine) that someone found to have failed to uphold some of the basic beliefs of the church can result in some terribly deleterious effects on the entire congregation.


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    #74
    rant_and_rave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭rant_and_rave


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    Did you know the guy? No, you didn't.

    It's very easy for someone on the internet to anonymously and merrily throw stones in the Greenhouse. Have a look in your own heart of hearts and tell me that you're morally squeaky clean yourself.

    Liam Cosgrove was held and tied up at knifepoint over a twelve-hour period while a couple of gougers raided the church. He went out of his way to visit the sick and elderly of the parish during his many years in Baldoyle.

    And before you start accusing me of being an apologist, I renounced my Catholic faith back in 1982 and I'm as tough a critic of the Catholic Church as you'd ever hope to meet.

    Canonical arguments aside, he put more back into his community than you ever have.

    Liam Cosgrove was a lovely man. End of.

    I didn't know him. So what. I don't know any convicted murderers either but I know murder is wrong. If Cosgrove thought gay sex was OK then maybe he thought that priests having affairs with women and priests having sex with minors was OK too. These kinds of sexual activity are also against Church law but Cosgrove obviously did not believe in Church law and that is a major problem in the RCC. A lot of their Priests and Bishops do not know right from wrong. If they did then we would not have had the child abuse scandal.


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    #75
    rant_and_rave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭rant_and_rave


    jaffa20 wrote: »
    Also i know a priest from my diocese who is openly homosexual. This happened after he was caught in an inappropriate location in male toilets. He was simply removed from his particular parish and transferred to another.

    This is just another example of the hypocrisy of the RCC. This priest should have been defrocked, not just moved around. He is totally unsuitable for ministry in a Church that condemns homosexual acts. It is this mentality that has gotten the RCC into so much trouble over child abuse. Move sex offenders around. Forgive and forget.

    This is an article from the RCC News Agency describing the new rules governing the laicization of priests. It makes no mention of any criminal activity. Does this mean that a priest convicted of murder can go to prison, serve their time and then resume the ministry on release?

    http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=16206

    The changes authorized by Pope Benedict XVI allow bishops to proceed with the laicization of priests only in some cases, such as when a priest leaves the ministry by his own will; when he asks the bishop to be dispensed from the commitment of celibacy; or when a priest leaves the priesthood without telling the bishop and enters into a civil marriage, has kids and "is not interested in solving his canonical situation."


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    #76
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    But he was Vowed to celibacy. Period.

    You cannot set that aside.

    Not a question of not throwing stones here.

    He knew the rules when he entered the priesthood; they have many years before they decide.


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    Did you know the guy? No, you didn't.

    It's very easy for someone on the internet to anonymously and merrily throw stones in the Greenhouse. Have a look in your own heart of hearts and tell me that you're morally squeaky clean yourself.

    Liam Cosgrove was held and tied up at knifepoint over a twelve-hour period while a couple of gougers raided the church. He went out of his way to visit the sick and elderly of the parish during his many years in Baldoyle.

    And before you start accusing me of being an apologist, I renounced my Catholic faith back in 1982 and I'm as tough a critic of the Catholic Church as you'd ever hope to meet.

    Canonical arguments aside, he put more back into his community than you ever have.

    Liam Cosgrove was a lovely man. End of.


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    #77
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,556 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    rant_and_rave wrote: »
    I didn't know him. So what. I don't know any convicted murderers either but I know murder is wrong. If Cosgrove thought gay sex was OK then maybe he thought that priests having affairs with women and priests having sex with minors was OK too. These kinds of sexual activity are also against Church law but Cosgrove obviously did not believe in Church law and that is a major problem in the RCC. A lot of their Priests and Bishops do not know right from wrong. If they did then we would not have had the child abuse scandal.
    Equating what Liam Cosgrave did with child abuse is quite a stretch and you know it.

    The guy put a lot into the community, was widely liked and respected by the same community. That's his legacy.

    Who are you to judge the guy's life?

    Do you find yourself getting a little uncomfortable at the idea of homosexuality in general, or homosexuality just within the clergy?


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    #78
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Since we can't appear to have a reasonable discussion on this without people equating and comparing child abuse with homosexuality I'll have to lock the thread.

    There should be a Homophobic Forum on boards.ie so that they don't come in and try to hijack this forum.


This discussion has been closed.
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