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Would you accept an active homosexual priest in your parish?

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    #32
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    so being gay is not a choice then? If someone was born gay that would mean god made them gay?

    I don't particularly want to go down this route again. However, seems as there is some confusion, I'll elaborate.

    I have no idea if a persons sexuality is genetically determined, if external factors can be a deciding factor, or if it a little of both. Please note - and this is important - that I didn't include the option "God made them gay" in the last sentence.

    Homosexuality isn't something that greatly bothers me, tbh. I have better things to be focusing on than a person's personal preference when it comes to wobbly bits. I accept that people are gay - whatever the reason - and this is why I don't have a problem with two people of the same sex entering into a civil union where they are afford the same rights by the state as heterosexual couples receive. We don't live in a theocracy - and for that I am profoundly thankful - so I see no reason to force others into my way of thinking.

    I don't pretend this is an issue I easily understand, or that I'm not conflicted in some way. But I do see it as different when, in the context of Christianity, and specifically with regards to leadership, we are dealing with a head of the church who is effectively practising a lifestyle (which not to be confused with being gay - having a sexual preference) that Orthodox Christianity holds as incompatible.

    On this, I believe, PDN and I are largely in agreement.


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    #33
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    so being gay is not a choice then? If someone was born gay that would mean god made them gay?

    Exactly, if god has a plan for everyone then gays are born that way by his design, so its a bit hypocritical for a religion to consider someone sinful when they supposedly had no choice in the matter, if a gay man was to try hide the fact and go his life pretending to be straight, is that going against gods will?


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    #34
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    But priests are humans, and all humans fantasize, therefore gay priests must be sinful?

    All humans may indeed fantasize, though not necessarily about sex.

    You could just as well argue that heterosexual priests must be sinful.


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    #35
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    PDN wrote: »
    All humans may indeed fantasize, though not necessarily about sex.

    You could just as well argue that heterosexual priests must be sinful.
    Since you brought it up, according to Jesus, they must be, yes.


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    #36
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    But priests are humans, and all humans fantasize, therefore gay priests must be sinful?

    Who said priest weren't sinful? As if we needed reminding, clearly some priests (hopefully former priests/ inmates) were not without sin.


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    #37
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    krudler wrote: »
    Exactly, if god has a plan for everyone then gays are born that way by his design, so its a bit hypocritical for a religion to consider someone sinful when they supposedly had no choice in the matter, if a gay man was to try hide the fact and go his life pretending to be straight, is that going against gods will?

    Your leaps in logic are truly Beamonesque - so let's just clarify a couple of issues.

    1. It is far from proven scientifically that people are born gay. So the jury is still out on that one.

    2. Even if people were born gay, it does not follow that God designed them to be so. Some babies are born addicted to crack cocaine. Some babies were born limbless because of their mothers use of thalidomide (sp?). Some babies are born already infected with HIV. I know of very few people who would claim they were born that way because God wanted it to be so.

    3. God has a plan for everyone. But it would be folly to assume that doing whatever we feel like is therefore part of this plan.

    It does get irritating that anytime we start discussing homosexuality that people seem unable to think clearly.


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    #38
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    krudler wrote: »
    Exactly, if god has a plan for everyone then gays are born that way by his design, so its a bit hypocritical for a religion to consider someone sinful when they supposedly had no choice in the matter, if a gay man was to try hide the fact and go his life pretending to be straight, is that going against gods will?

    Are you actually reading all the replies?


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    #39
    gosplan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,828 ✭✭✭gosplan


    This all sounds a bit silly to me tbh.

    So being gay is fine but acting on it is a sin ... or thinking about it too much is a sin.

    That's some confused thinking right there.

    Do you both personally believe this?


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    #40
    lmaopml
    Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    rant_and_rave wrote: »
    In 1994 Father Liam Cosgrave, a curate from Baldoyle died in a gay sauna. He was given the last rites by two other Catholic priests who happened to be in the club and emerged from their cubical on hearing crys for help. Two homosexual priests have coitus interruptus in a gay club because another priest in the same clubs drops dead from a heart attack and requires the last rites. The club owner says about 20 RCC priests are regular patrons.

    Renegade priest Pat Buckley says 30-40% of priests are actively gay.

    How does the hierarchy react? There was no condemnation of Cosgrave from Desmond Connell and no attempt to admonish the other two priests who were with him in the club. While RCC doctrine condemns homosexual acts RCC Bishops tacitly accept homosexual acts between clergy. If the Bishops cannot act on their own belief system and remove active homosexual priests from the ministry then is it no wonder that they see child abuse as a trivial issue and offer succour and protection to sex offenders.

    Would you accept an active homosexual priest in your parish and if so how would you reconcile your position with the doctrine of the RCC.

    Priest died in gay sauna.

    AS MANY as 20 Catholic priests are regular visitors to the gay Dublin
    sauna club where an elderly priest died suddenly over the weekend, the
    owner of the premises, Mr Liam Ledwidge, told The Irish Times last
    night.

    He said that Father Liam Cosgrave (68), who apparently died of a heart
    attack early on Saturday morning, was a regular visitor to the
    Incognito sauna club, on Bow Lane East off Aungier Street, for many
    years.

    Meanwhile the Archbishop of Dublin, Dr Desmond Connell, said yesterday
    that he was ``shocked and saddened'' by the circumstances of Father
    Cosgrave's death. In a statement, Dr Connell said the death of the
    curate was a tragedy. ``The circumstances of his death have shocked
    and saddened us all and make his death even more tragic.''

    The Incognito's owner, Mr Ledwidge, said the Baldoyle curate, who was
    a member of the Montfort Fathers, was just one of a number of priests
    who frequented the premises. ``We do have a lot of priests visiting,
    around 20 of them. Of course they wouldn't all congregate at the same
    time and they don't form a higher proportion than any other
    profession. They don't wear their clerical collars, but over the years
    you do get to know what people do,'' said Mr Ledwidge, a partner in
    the club which opened 12 years ago.

    God bless Mr. Ledwidge :rolleyes: Perhaps he should out them all now huh? He's so brave.

    Op, without reading through the thread at all, so forgive me if I am repeating....however, I fail to see the connection between somebody who is 'Gay' and a 'Pedophile'?


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    #41
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    lmaopml wrote: »
    Op, without reading through the thread at all, so forgive me if I am repeating....however, I fail to see the connection between somebody who is 'Gay' and a 'Pedophile'?

    I think the only connection being made was the shared blind eye the RCC has turned towards each in relation to the members of it's clergy....


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    #42
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    PDN, if God is omniscient then he knows that the person is going to have homosexual tendencies whether they are genetic or not. So your point is mute.


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    #43
    lmaopml
    Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I think the only connection being made was the shared blind eye the RCC has turned towards each in relation to the members of it's clergy....


    The RCC Church is being careful about 'who' is allowed to administer to it's flock at the moment....and no doubt, it's about time too. However, I must say, I highly disagree that a Gay person is automatically a Pedophile.

    I totally get the idea that both may be more inclined to think more 'secretly' about sex etc. etc. but I certainly do not agree with descriminating against someone who is born Gay with a 'huge' cross to bear today as regards other peoples 'outlook' and this priest who for whatever reason decided to choose the Catholic faith. I have no doubt whatsoever the guy was probably one of the nicest guys on the street. The FACT remains, that he signed up to administer a Gospel he was NOT adhering to. We are all born with crosses to bear....

    Gay doesn't nececessarily translate into pedophilia though.....


    ...and I think a hell of a lot more study needs to be done in this area.

    As an RCC, with a Gay brother in law, I am entirely empathetic to him, but it's 'his' road, and 'his' choice....and there is only one perfect judge.

    ...and it ain't the RCC church, or you or I, or anybody else.


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    #44
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    No one said gay = pedophile.


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    #45
    lmaopml
    Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    No one said gay = pedophile.

    LOL, well I apologise if I took the op up wrong so...


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    #46
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    lmaopml wrote: »
    However, I must say, I highly disagree that a Gay person is automatically a Pedophile.

    I've read the thread three times now & the only person making that leap is you. The similarities being drawn by the OP are that the RCC hierarchy has knowingly & deliberately ignored the fact that members of it's clergy are participating in homosexual activity - and have also ignored accusations of paedophilia made against other members. Ignoring both does not = the same activity being ignored.

    Edited to add.
    lmaopml wrote: »
    LOL, well I apologise if I took the op up wrong so...

    I got distracted mid post & took so long to type it, I missed the above first time around, sorry. :o


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    #47
    Stercus Accidit
    Registered Users Posts: 8,758 ✭✭✭Stercus Accidit


    rant_and_rave wrote: »
    If the Bishops cannot act on their own belief system and remove active homosexual priests from the ministry then is it no wonder that they see child abuse as a trivial issue and offer succour and protection to sex offenders.

    The OP did equate overlooking a priest being gay with overlooking a priest molesting children.

    Isn't that putting homosexuality on par with child abuse by the OP?


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    #48
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Stercus Accidit wrote: »
    The OP did equate overlooking a priest being gay with overlooking a priest molesting children.

    Isn't that putting homosexuality on par with child abuse by the OP?

    No, it isn't. Stating that the hierarchy overlooked two separate practices in no way implies that the two practices are equated.

    Any more discussion about homosexuality=paedophilia will be deleted.


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    #49
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    gosplan wrote: »
    This all sounds a bit silly to me tbh.

    So being gay is fine but acting on it is a sin ... or thinking about it too much is a sin.

    That's some confused thinking right there.

    Do you both personally believe this?

    Yes, people round here do personally believe the Bible. If you don't like that I suggest you avoid posting here.


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    #50
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Stercus Accidit wrote: »
    The OP did equate overlooking a priest being gay with overlooking a priest molesting children.

    Isn't that putting homosexuality on par with child abuse by the OP?

    I don't see any equating other than being on par with some members of the RCC in terms of blatant hypocrisy...


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    #51
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    liamw wrote: »
    PDN, if God is omniscient then he knows that the person is going to have homosexual tendencies whether they are genetic or not. So your point is mute.

    At the risk of proving Skitt's Law correct, I believe you meant to say, "your point is moot". But it's not!

    The issue being raised in this thread isn't about being gay - I believe a number of people have been at pains to point this out. It's about being a sexually active gay person while also serving as a member of authority within the church. According to Orthodoxy, this lifestyle is unacceptable. (Please reread the thread if you are confused.)

    Of course, if one wishes, there is always the option of seeking out other denominations and splitter groups (Unitarianism, for example) that bare only the faintest whispers of a union with Orthodoxy (and, dare I say, Christianity) but allow such things.


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    #52
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    liamw wrote: »
    PDN, if God is omniscient then he knows that the person is going to have homosexual tendencies whether they are genetic or not. So your point is mute.

    And, if you accept that dodgy logic, you could make the same argument about anything by substituting any practice you want for 'homosexual tendencies'. So I suggest you avoid trying to derail the thread by feeding us any of the nonsense we've endured previously in this forum from atheists who argue that omniscience and free will are incompatible.

    I hope I have made myself clear. I have a low tolerance level tonight when it comes to such crap. So your intervention is moot.


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    #53
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    So just to confirm, do the Christians here believe it's okay for a priest to be gay, even though he may fantasize on occasion, thus making him a sinner?


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    #54
    Stercus Accidit
    Registered Users Posts: 8,758 ✭✭✭Stercus Accidit


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I don't see any equating other than being on par with some members of the RCC in terms of blatant hypocrisy...

    I was more surprised by the OP tbh, hypocrisy is one thing, protecting criminals is another, and I purely wanted to highlight that point.

    As PDN pointed out, of course they aren't the same thing, only a sick minded individual would equate the two.


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    #55
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    Few pointers:
    • The Bible condemns sexual immorality.
    • The Roman Catholic Church condemns sexual immorality.
    • The Roman Catholic Church preaches that you should not engage in sexual immorality or extra martial sexual behavior be that with homosexual acts or with heterosexual acts.
    • Roman Catholic Priests are prohibited from any kind of sex and are not allowed to get married to members of the opposite sex never mind the same sex.
    So if I were catholic, would I accept a priest who signed up for a position with the full knowledge that said position had all these provisos and quid pro cos but never respected them enough to live up to them?

    ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

    If you're gonna talk the talk, then walk the walk, otherwise you are a hypocrite.


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    #56
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    So just to confirm, do the Christians here believe it's okay for a priest to be gay, even though he may fantasize on occasion, thus making him a sinner?
    A cornerstone of Christainity is that every one sins.
    If the priest is repentant then he will be forgiven.


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    #57
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    So just to confirm, do the Christians here believe it's okay for a priest to be gay, even though he may fantasize on occasion, thus making him a sinner?

    Dear me! I thought we made this clear.

    I'll answere your question with an answer. Do you suppose we believe that heterosexual priests aren't sinners?


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    #58
    lmaopml
    Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    So just to confirm, do the Christians here believe it's okay for a priest to be gay, even though he may fantasize on occasion, thus making him a sinner?

    MagicMarker, I think we are all sinners at the end of the day, and we all have various crosses to bear. Unfortunately though, we look on priests, particularly on this island as being made of stone-they aren't. I don't presume to judge them, but I do acknowledge that they were living a lie, if they preach one thing and practice another....They weren't living what they signed up to...and it is a 'huge' calling....

    ..no doubt some of them do, a hell of a lot, and I know some, who are so pure in their life purpose it would make you weep..They are the unsung hero's...that seldom hit the media.

    Those priests are...probably nice people, but 'nice' doesn't equate to the role they have pretended to take. It's making a mockery of it, that's the sad sad fact of their legacy for some, not all....They are called to be 'more', and they ended up 'less'.

    But you know what, only God will judge them perfectly.


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    #59
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    PDN wrote: »
    Jimi, I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say.

    I'm questioning the statement SW made earlier about its the 'act' that is sinful.
    Fantasizing and dwelling on the thought of any sin is, according to Jesus, sinful.

    Why do you think that is? Genuine question.


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    #60
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    So just to confirm, do the Christians here believe it's okay for a priest to be gay, even though he may fantasize on occasion, thus making him a sinner?

    Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse?

    Christians do not believe that any sin is OK. It is wrong for a priest, or any other Christian, to fantasize about gay sex, to fantasize about having sex with Beyonce, or to fantasize about kicking George W. Bush in the crotch.


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    #61
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Dear me! I thought we made this clear.

    I'll answere your question with an answer. Do you suppose we believe that heterosexual priests aren't sinners?
    No I don't. But I don't believe all priests are repentant either. So how do you know who is the sinner and who isn't?


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