Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

savagethegoat

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

There are plenty of kms of existing operational track in Connacht for these many other industries to locate next to if they wish. Double tracking Portarlington - Athlone, adding some passing loops and even creating a direct link from Portarlington to the Waterford line would be far more beneficial and probably less expensive than reopening the closed part of the WRC. This is the fallacy of the WRC; freight already operates between Connacht and our two rail connected ports, we do not need to rebuild and reopen this line for industries, the infrastructure already exist for such industries (if they actually exist) and can be improved to relatively little cost. Reopening the remaining WRC will do nothing to attract industry.

Oh yes, this in Spades.. Should someone want to set up new industry, and desire rail distribution, they are going to want it connected either to a Port or to a Big City. So why wouldn't they build next to one of the several lines from the wesht to Dublin?

westtip

eastwest wrote: »

The notion of maintaining rails and sleepers for possible use fifty years into the future belongs in the soviet era.
.

Maybe those promoting it belong to a Stalin type of mindset when it comes to accepting their agenda or politics.

bagels

bagels wrote: »

What would be easier, cheaper, etc etc etc ?

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Yes. You are talking about rebuilding an entire rail line from foundations up including next bridges, embankments, etc. for 100km which would be extremely expensive (look at the cost of Athenry - Ennis per km and increase it). And then you want to transfer waste from every county in Ireland (by road) to a depot (no idea where but in many cases further from the end destination than the the waste originated) where it can be loaded (double handling) onto trains to haul to Connacht which is operationally very inefficient and expensive. Where would this rail yard be located and what route would the trains bound for Connacht take? And why does this idea even rely on reopening the WRC, there is already operating rail in Connacht? This is one of the worst conspiracy theories I have ever heard.

I'll try again and hopefully you'll come down off your high horse and answer the question this time.

In post #6195 you claim that "it" would be easier, cheaper, etc.

I'm asking you again what the "it" is that you refer to.

You can either edit your post #6195 to specify what the "it" is (as you should have done in the first place) or just simply tell me what this "it" is at this my second time of asking.

If you're unwilling to do, or incapable of doing, either then please refrain from replying at all.

hytrogen

savagethegoat wrote:

Oh yes, this in Spades.. Should someone want to set up new industry, and desire rail distribution, they are going to want it connected either to a Port or to a Big City. So why wouldn't they build next to one of the several lines from the wesht to Dublin?

Because of attractive tax incentives, a decent workforce that's highly educated from NUI Galway & Uni Limerick, Athlone & Sligo IT, but to name a few. Most graduates, many studies have found, live near or adjacent to these institutes & Uni's and too deeply wish to remain living near so. Why should they have to migrate to an overcrowded and a severely under supplied accommodation metropolis when they can live nearer to where they grew up?

westtip wrote:

Maybe those promoting it belong to a Stalin type of mindset when it comes to accepting their agenda or politics.

Now now didn't the nazis run an efficient service too? we're all in it to win it lest we forget! Sure the great US of A was built on the great railways too?

hytrogen

Pete_Cavan wrote:

There are plenty of kms of existing operational track in Connacht for these many other industries to locate next to if they wish. Double tracking Portarlington - Athlone, adding some passing loops and even creating a direct link from Portarlington to the Waterford line would be far more beneficial and probably less expensive than reopening the closed part of the WRC. This is the fallacy of the WRC; freight already operates between Connacht and our two rail connected ports, we do not need to rebuild and reopen this line for industries, the infrastructure already exist for such industries (if they actually exist) and can be improved to relatively little cost. Reopening the remaining WRC will do nothing to attract industry.

Agreed, there's no need yet to reintroduce the fallowed lines, and indeed those still in existence should be kept and maintained to a safe standard of use. Equally no more lines should be torn up for greenway fallow. We've lost so much infrastructure already.
If we see a demand to reintroduce the green-way lines, there shouldn't be any objection given the economic benefits this will grant to the locals and the greater economy and it should be undertaken immediately. As ever with little old Ireland there will be though unfortunately...
Looking at our inland waterways & canals and how they became the touristic successes they are as a prime example for this. Equally the Scottish waterways success as well.. (for another thread story)

monument

Grandeeod wrote: »

A wise man can act the fool, but a fool can't act the wise man.

Your contributions on these forums are nothing more than useless. Your only saving grace is that the rules allow you to post utter diatribe. What you know about transport issues could be written on a knats wing. If you wish to defend that, then I'm all ears.

Grandeeod wrote: »

I shall let you have the last word. I hope it makes you feel better. I don't mind because I find it funny.

Grandeeod, as a user who knows his way around and knows the rules, is getting a three-day ban for this.

-- moderator

eastwest

hytrogen wrote: »

Because of attractive tax incentives, a decent workforce that's highly educated from NUI Galway & Uni Limerick, Athlone & Sligo IT, but to name a few. Most graduates, many studies have found, live near or adjacent to these institutes & Uni's and too deeply wish to remain living near so. Why should they have to migrate to an overcrowded and a severely under supplied accommodation metropolis when they can live nearer to where they grew up?


Now now didn't the nazis run an efficient service too? we're all in it to win it lest we forget! Sure the great US of A was built on the great railways too?

And the USA has long learned that where nobody is using rail lines, they make great tourist amenities.
You won't find a US railway company keeping a dead line open for fifty years just in case the population along it suddenly doubles and stops using cars, or that a heavy industry decides to relocate from China to some thinly populated rural state. They understand the usefulness of trails in maintaining rights of way, something that Irish Rail also understands but that the slow learners among a handful of Irish county councillors find hard to grasp.

Pete_Cavan

bagels wrote: »

I'll try again and hopefully you'll come down off your high horse and answer the question this time.

In post #6195 you claim that "it" would be easier, cheaper, etc.

I'm asking you again what the "it" is that you refer to.

You can either edit your post #6195 to specify what the "it" is (as you should have done in the first place) or just simply tell me what this "it" is at this my second time of asking.

If you're unwilling to do, or incapable of doing, either then please refrain from replying at all.

Is this serious? The "it" I referred to was your suggestion that "Opening up the Corridor to freight will also facilitate the building of a huge biomass converter in Connacht which will then be the dumping ground for all types of abattoir waste, hospital waste, slurry, etc from the 32 counties and perhaps even imported waste from mainland UK". That should be fairly easy to understand from reading my post and the post quoted.

Transferring all that would be easier, cheaper, etc. by road seeing as it is relatively small quantities coming from literally all over the island. This is not suitable for rail as everything has to be loaded onto trucks/tankers, brought by road to train loading site, unloaded, loaded onto the train and unloaded again at the final destination. The reopening of the line (which I do not support btw) has nothing to do with the building of a huge biomass converter in Connacht, the economics of such a project are not helped by rebuilding the rail line.

I notice you didnt try to address the point I made and instead have only tried to misdirect the conversation. As for the "come down off your high horse" comment, the final sentence of your post really shows who is on the high horse.

tabbey

BoatMad wrote: »

Ie should not be allowed to remove any further track from any line and should be committed to 50 year basic maintenance

infrastructure removed is infrastructure lost

If any rail line disused for decades, is to be reopened, the old track would have to be lifted, the ballast removed and formation excavated.
This is because the sleepers would be rotten, the ballast full of decaying vegetation and other organic material, and thus unable to perform it's drainage function.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see further rail reopenings, but only if there is sustainable traffic.
In the meantime, a greenway is the best way of avoiding adverse possession, and thus preserving the integrity of the route.

savagethegoat

hytrogen wrote: »

Because of attractive tax incentives, a decent workforce that's highly educated from NUI Galway & Uni Limerick, Athlone & Sligo IT, but to name a few. Most graduates, many studies have found, live near or adjacent to these institutes & Uni's and too deeply wish to remain living near so. Why should they have to migrate to an overcrowded and a severely under supplied accommodation metropolis when they can live nearer to where they grew up?


NQUOTE]

Did you even read my post before you quoted it?

eastwest

tabbey wrote: »

If any rail line disused for decades, is to be reopened, the old track would have to be lifted, the ballast removed and formation excavated.
This is because the sleepers would be rotten, the ballast full of decaying vegetation and other organic material, and thus unable to perform it's drainage function.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see further rail reopenings, but only if there is sustainable traffic.
In the meantime, a greenway is the best way of avoiding adverse possession, and thus preserving the integrity of the route.

That's called logic. Unfortunately when you get down to the grubby stroking of local politics, logic goes out the window. A councillor or TD who mightn't otherwise have much to offer can often be unwilling to let go of a political old chestnut that had served him or her well for decades. Somebody who promised that 'if you send me up to Dublin, I'll get you a railway' might be afraid to be seen to row back on that promise, and this applies to councillors as well as TDs. They would happily see the asset lost rather than see it used as a greenway; the greenway lobby are seen by these politicians as the enemy, not as the people proposing the obvious and logical solution.
Unfortunately that's the nature of politics in Ireland; public interest comes a long way down the list when it comes to making decisions. The overriding principle is the requirement to get re-elected, not to serve the public. The handful of decent and honourable exceptions deserve great credit for having the courage to step out from the muttering mob.

BoatMad

tabbey wrote: »

If any rail line disused for decades, is to be reopened, the old track would have to be lifted, the ballast removed and formation excavated.
This is because the sleepers would be rotten, the ballast full of decaying vegetation and other organic material, and thus unable to perform it's drainage function.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see further rail reopenings, but only if there is sustainable traffic.
In the meantime, a greenway is the best way of avoiding adverse possession, and thus preserving the integrity of the route.

WRC shows that reopening a line is not difficult , modern tack handling and relaying equipment mean that this is considerably faster and cheaper then heretofore

schemingbohemia

BoatMad wrote: »

WRC shows that reopening a line is not difficult , modern tack handling and relaying equipment mean that this is considerably faster and cheaper then heretofore

Yes, and it also shows that it's a waste of money and resources. If a line between two big towns Galway and Ennis can't work financially how can the rest of the proposed line work?
Also the cost of that section in construction terms will be miniscule in comparison to the rest of the route.
You don't seem to understand the costs of these things.

BoatMad

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Yes, and it also shows that it's a waste of money and resources. If a line between two big towns Galway and Ennis can't work financially how can the rest of the proposed line work?
Also the cost of that section in construction terms will be miniscule in comparison to the rest of the route.
You don't seem to understand the costs of these things.

The whole rail system is not "economic ", arguably neither is the motorway system.


This is about infrastructure not economics

Carawaystick

There's not economic, and there's the fact it would be cheaper to give every passenger between Athenry and Ennis a taxi instead.
It's about unused infrastructure alright, and people trying to keep it from being used, and having a positive cost/benefit ratio

BoatMad

Carawaystick wrote: »

There's not economic, and there's the fact it would be cheaper to give every passenger between Athenry and Ennis a taxi instead

many such arguments can be advanced along the lines you say, must as any said we live in a society not an economy. Loads of things that are not cost effective are undertaken in this regard

Rail is maintained as an alternative to road based transport , thats the primary reason is remains present in the state

Carawaystick

If, as you said

BoatMad wrote: »

WRC shows that reopening a line is not difficult , modern tack handling and relaying equipment mean that this is considerably faster and cheaper then heretofore

Then when there is demand for a rail link to run alongside the quicker M/N17
would it not be simple to convert a greenway to a rail line?

This would allow people to use the line, while there is no better use at present for this piece of infrastructure.

eastwest

BoatMad wrote: »

many such arguments can be advanced along the lines you say, must as any said we live in a society not an economy. Loads of things that are not cost effective are undertaken in this regard

Rail is maintained as an alternative to road based transport , thats the primary reason is remains present in the state

It's unfair that society as a whole is asked to spend so heavily on moving a tiny number of people around; that money could move a lot more people more efficiently using buses on roads and motorways that are put there already for industry and for car traffic. The nineteenth century technology that is rail only justifies investment where there are sufficient numbers of people, something that is not the case in this region as has been clearly shown by the waste of money that is Ennis-Arhenry.
Governments know this, and successive ministers have clearly stated that the mistake of Ennis-Athenry will not be repeated, yet a small cabal of politicians persist in blocking the best option for protecting the asset for possible future use. You would have to ask, given that not all of them are stupid, what is their real agenda? Are there some who stand to benefit from the loss of the asset to the state, or do they actually represent some of the squatters?

end of the road

eastwest wrote: »

that money could move a lot more people more efficiently using buses on roads and motorways that are put there already for industry and for car traffic.

the thing is, those using rail don't want busses. if they did then they would use the existing bus services. the rail lines aren't the reason that extra busses don't operate in the region, people not wanting such services is the most likely reason.

eezipc

The Ennis-Galway line is being run in a very Irish way. It should be set up as a commuter route. For example, the times on a Friday are 13.45, 17.50, 18.40. That's not good enough. There should be less carriages and the trains run more frequently. Also, 10 euro each way is crazy money.
Also if a route from Claremorris to Galway was set up, it would be much busier. There are plenty of people who drive in every day from Claremorris/Dunmore and especially Tuam.
Buses are not good enough as it just adds to the traffic.

eastwest

eezipc wrote: »

The Ennis-Galway line is being run in a very Irish way. It should be set up as a commuter route. For example, the times on a Friday are 13.45, 17.50, 18.40. That's not good enough. There should be less carriages and the trains run more frequently. Also, 10 euro each way is crazy money.
Also if a route from Claremorris to Galway was set up, it would be much busier. There are plenty of people who drive in every day from Claremorris/Dunmore and especially Tuam.
Buses are not good enough as it just adds to the traffic.

Nowadays it is accepted that buses on bus corridors are a better option for moving a lot of people quickly and efficiently. The problem with the Tuam-Athenry-Galway route as a commuter line is that it is too slow and convoluted, and it doesn't get people where they want to go -- the majority of commuters don't work around Eyre Square.
As for €10 each way on Ennis-Galway, its only a tiny fraction of the cost of providing the service. The taxpayer subsidises each trip on the route to the tune of €84, not taking into account the capital cost of providing the infrastructure. When a private operator or a State-owned bus company can do the trip with little or no subsidy, why would governments get involved in anything so daft again?

eastwest

end of the road wrote: »

the thing is, those using rail don't want busses. if they did then they would use the existing bus services.

Ideally I don't want buses either. I'd actually prefer to be collected from my door in a Rolls Royce and delivered to work, and maybe have someone buy me a coffee and the Irish Times on the way, but that's not how things work in the real world.

end of the road

eastwest wrote: »

Nowadays it is accepted that buses on bus corridors are a better option for moving a lot of people quickly and efficiently.

no, no it isn't. the only people who believe that are those still stuck in the 1960s, or the roads at all costs at the expence of everything else types. that idea was tried and failed. dublin has suffered from having to rely on a bus based transport system for decades. due to the disadvantages of road transport in the cities, bus transport as the primary mode just isn't good enough or acceptable. bus is perfectly fine for very small scale public transport only.

savagethegoat

BoatMad wrote: »

many such arguments can be advanced along the lines you say, must as any said we live in a society not an economy. Loads of things that are not cost effective are undertaken in this regard

Rail is maintained as an alternative to road based transport , thats the primary reason is remains present in the state

if you offered those passengers a choice, they'd all choose the taxi over the train particularly as no doubt it could drop them where they want rather than a fixed point. It would probably cost less, so where is the rational of a little used rail line?

BoatMad

savagethegoat wrote: »

if you offered those passengers a choice, they'd all choose the taxi over the train particularly as no doubt it could drop them where they want rather than a fixed point. It would probably cost less, so where is the rational of a little used rail line?

I agree, but the fact is that national policy sees Rail as an alternative to road and has taken a decision to support certain rail related developments

its not about simply €€€

eastwest

BoatMad wrote: »

I agree, but the fact is that national policy sees Rail as an alternative to road and has taken a decision to support certain rail related developments

its not about simply €€€

It sees rail as an alternative to road where the numbers justify it. Clearly, and as explained by successive ministers, government will not repeat the mistake of Ennis-athenry, for just that reason.

bagels

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

This is hilarious. If they wanted to gather such waste from all 32 counties and bring it to Connacht, it would be easier, cheaper, faster, avoid double handling and require less investment than rebuilding a rail line to transport it by train. Rail freight requires bulk point to point loads, not little bits taken from every corner of the country, never mind taking it in from abroad.

And WRC freeing up rail capacity in Leinster! If increasing capacity in Leinster is the goal then it is easier and cheaper to just invest the money which would be required to rebuild the WRC in improving the network in Leinster.

bagels wrote: »

What would be easier, cheaper, etc etc etc ?

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Yes. You are talking about rebuilding an entire rail line from foundations up including next bridges, embankments, etc. for 100km which would be extremely expensive (look at the cost of Athenry - Ennis per km and increase it). And then you want to transfer waste from every county in Ireland (by road) to a depot (no idea where but in many cases further from the end destination than the the waste originated) where it can be loaded (double handling) onto trains to haul to Connacht which is operationally very inefficient and expensive. Where would this rail yard be located and what route would the trains bound for Connacht take? And why does this idea even rely on reopening the WRC, there is already operating rail in Connacht? This is one of the worst conspiracy theories I have ever heard.

bagels wrote: »

I'll try again and hopefully you'll come down off your high horse and answer the question this time.

In post #6195 you claim that "it" would be easier, cheaper, etc.

I'm asking you again what the "it" is that you refer to.

You can either edit your post #6195 to specify what the "it" is (as you should have done in the first place) or just simply tell me what this "it" is at this my second time of asking.

If you're unwilling to do, or incapable of doing, either then please refrain from replying at all.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Is this serious? The "it" I referred to was your suggestion that "Opening up the Corridor to freight will also facilitate the building of a huge biomass converter in Connacht which will then be the dumping ground for all types of abattoir waste, hospital waste, slurry, etc from the 32 counties and perhaps even imported waste from mainland UK". That should be fairly easy to understand from reading my post and the post quoted.

Transferring all that would be easier, cheaper, etc. by road seeing as it is relatively small quantities coming from literally all over the island. This is not suitable for rail as everything has to be loaded onto trucks/tankers, brought by road to train loading site, unloaded, loaded onto the train and unloaded again at the final destination. The reopening of the line (which I do not support btw) has nothing to do with the building of a huge biomass converter in Connacht, the economics of such a project are not helped by rebuilding the rail line.

I notice you didnt try to address the point I made and instead have only tried to misdirect the conversation. As for the "come down off your high horse" comment, the final sentence of your post really shows who is on the high horse.

What does it take to get you to answer a simple question, a question that only requires an answer of one sentence maximum? I don't think you yourself know what you're referring to so what hope have I got of understanding you so. Apparently you're not fluent in English so I'll now cease all discourse with you.

savagethegoat

Pete-Cavan:...what he is saying is that your post didn't make sense the way it is written. Read it again.

TCDStudent1

eezipc wrote: »

The Ennis-Galway line is being run in a very Irish way. It should be set up as a commuter route. For example, the times on a Friday are 13.45, 17.50, 18.40. That's not good enough. There should be less carriages and the trains run more frequently. Also, 10 euro each way is crazy money.
Also if a route from Claremorris to Galway was set up, it would be much busier. There are plenty of people who drive in every day from Claremorris/Dunmore and especially Tuam.
Buses are not good enough as it just adds to the traffic.

Whatever about buses clogging up traffic, its hard to see how the current rail line would increase commuter times from Claremorris and Dunmore.

Pete_Cavan

bagels wrote: »

What does it take to get you to answer a simple question, a question that only requires an answer of one sentence maximum? I don't think you yourself know what you're referring to so what hope have I got of understanding you so. Apparently you're not fluent in English so I'll now cease all discourse with you.

My mistake, it should have read;

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If they wanted to gather such waste from all 32 counties and bring it to Connacht, it would be easier, cheaper, faster, avoid double handling and require less investment by road than rebuilding a rail line to transport it by train. Rail freight requires bulk point to point loads, not little bits taken from every corner of the country, never mind taking it in from abroad.

But I already clarified that;

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Transferring all that would be easier, cheaper, etc. by road seeing as it is relatively small quantities coming from literally all over the island. This is not suitable for rail as everything has to be loaded onto trucks/tankers, brought by road to train loading site, unloaded, loaded onto the train and unloaded again at the final destination. The reopening of the line (which I do not support btw) has nothing to do with the building of a huge biomass converter in Connacht, the economics of such a project are not helped by rebuilding the rail line.

So now that that is cleared up you can stop avoiding my point, your conspiracy theory about the WRC being linked to a huge biomass converter in Connacht, please proceed...