Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

corktina

fair point, the 100 million was sunk before the bubble burst

Copyerselveson

West on Track are a lobby group, in the same way the Sligo Mayo Greenway group are also a lobby group. I fail to understand the purpose of asking the Minister to make one lobby group "listen" to another lobby group.

Errigal Climber seems to think that West on Track are some quasi-governmental body answerable to the Department of Transport.

I rather suspect that letter will undoubtedly be given a brisk response from one of the DOT civil servants and then filed away.

Copyerselveson

And right now there is no approval for any new railway. (Though that may change after 2015 if we come out of the bailout) There are plans but the real issue for the Greenway lobbyists is that Mayo County Council are intending to reserve the existing track for a future railway service. The County Development plan is nearly fixed at this stage and from what the majority of councillors are saying its unlikely that they will adopt any part of the Greenway proposals.

errigalclimber

Let's be clear, track laying on the Limerick to Galway line was ongoing in 2009, one year after the collapse of Lehman Brothers. So millions of investment on the Limerick to Galway section were taking place as the financial crisis had unfolded. It was a disgraceful ordering of priorities given especially what has emerged in respect of the line's patronage.

In response to another posting above, I do not believe that West On Track is a quasi-governmental body. Indeed, it is because they are not such a body that I question their apparent access to the Minister in the pictures they have posted on their website of the opening of Oranmore Station - it is as if this unlected lobbying group takes credit for an important aspect of Government transport policy costing the Irish taxpayer millions.

West On Track as a group does not have a monopoly on ideas for the use of the disused section of line from Athenry. The proposals for greenway have the benefit of: (1) attracting footfall now and not some indeterminate time in the future, (2) benefiting local communities and rural economies now and not some indeterminate time in the future; (3) preserving the trackbed for potential future rail use if it ever becomes economonically viable; and (4) preventing adverse possession claims being made on public land.

The greenway proposals deserve at least the same amount of government time as those promoted by West On Track and if they are not receiving such time, then one has a right to query why that is the case. My personal view is that advocating a rural train service to the exclusion of all other uses of the track bed that might benefit the local economies bordering the disused line is to fly in the face of what might benefit those economies in the here and now.

Copyerselveson

At this stage it would be best to write to the Mayo County Manager and make that case, if you haven't done so already.

errigalclimber

Will happily write to the County Manager, Copyerselveson.

corktina

errigalclimber wrote: »

Let's be clear, track laying on the Limerick to Galway line was ongoing in 2009, one year after the collapse of Lehman Brothers. So millions of investment on the Limerick to Galway section were taking place as the financial crisis had unfolded. It was a disgraceful ordering of priorities given especially what has emerged in respect of the line's patronage.

In response to another posting above, I do not believe that West On Track is a quasi-governmental body. Indeed, it is because they are not such a body that I question their apparent access to the Minister in the pictures they have posted on their website of the opening of Oranmore Station - it is as if this unlected lobbying group takes credit for an important aspect of Government transport policy costing the Irish taxpayer millions.

West On Track as a group does not have a monopoly on ideas for the use of the disused section of line from Athenry. The proposals for greenway have the benefit of: (1) attracting footfall now and not some indeterminate time in the future, (2) benefiting local communities and rural economies now and not some indeterminate time in the future; (3) preserving the trackbed for potential future rail use if it ever becomes economonically viable; and (4) preventing adverse possession claims being made on public land.

The greenway proposals deserve at least the same amount of government time as those promoted by West On Track and if they are not receiving such time, then one has a right to query why that is the case. My personal view is that advocating a rural train service to the exclusion of all other uses of the track bed that might benefit the local economies bordering the disused line is to fly in the face of what might benefit those economies in the here and now.

i'm going to pick you up here again as misinformation will not help your cause. Tracklaying was completed in 2009 having started in I think 2006. Thus the bulk of the €103 million was spent before the bubble burst

errigalclimber

Corktina, I have no issues with you picking me up, goodness me I want to be as accurate as I can be. I understand that the expenditure started in earnest in the 2006/2007 financial year. The sub-prime bubble burst in 2007, Lehmans collapsed in 2008 and therefore by definition a significant amount of expenditure occurred in a time of financial crisis. I don't think it is a stretch to reach that conclusion. Also, in repect of tracklaying, I understand that a significant amount of track had to be relaid in 2009 due to flooding.

But spending €100m of public money on such a project with such limited projected returns and with such poor projected journey times at any time, even in boom times, in my view, was not an appropriate prioritising of public spending.

corktina

i'm fully in agreement with you over this waste of our tax money for years to come. I just don't want the argument on here, which has remained remarkably pure , to be tripped up with facts not being fully presented (in marked contrast to the dirty tricks of other organisations.)

errigalclimber

Completely understand Corktina and appreciated. As for the "pureness" of the argument, the reference above to "a few lads playing trains" I don't think does justice to such a profligate waste of public money at the behest of a lobbying organisation.

relaxed

errigalclimber wrote: »

Completely understand Corktina and appreciated. As for the "pureness" of the argument, the reference above to "a few lads playing trains" I don't think does justice to such a profligate waste of public money at the behest of a lobbying organisation.

The €100m was long spent before austerity hit the streets of Ireland. That makes your argument look misguided.

As regards lobbying, the greenway people met the minister too, so that makes your argument look even more misguided

Banging on about this being inappropriate lobbying when its a photograph of a minister with a community group makes the whole letter look like a rant, which is exactly what it is.

Your letter is poorly researched, poorly written and inaccurate. How much of my taxpayers money will be wasted dealing with it?

serfboard

errigalclimber wrote: »

I question their apparent access to the Minister in the pictures they have posted on their website of the opening of Oranmore Station

They don't have access to the Minister.

They showed up on the day. That's all. If the Tuam Greenway or Sligo-Mayo Greenway campaigns (or indeed, anyone) had shown up on the day and asked the Minister could they have a photo with him, he would have done the same.

Anyway, let's look at the photo. There are five people in it. One is the Minister. Another is someone from IE. Another is Tom McHugh, a Fine Gael county councillor and unsuccessful General Election candidate, who no doubt thought he would get his photo in the local papers. Tom is a builder-turned-hotelier and is a WOT supporter, hosting their recent conference in the hotel he owns.

The fourth person in the photo I can't identify.

And last, but not least, is Colman, who, in the absence of the priest, is West On Track.

So, to say the photo is "Members of West on Track pictured with Transport Minister" is stretching credibility - unless Colman has taken to referring to himself in the plural?

errigalclimber

Relaxed, the €100m was manifestly still being spent as the sub-prime bubble burst in 2007. That is fact - it is not misguided, it is self evident.

Did the greenway advocates meet Mr Varadker? I understand they met a junior minister and received a letter from Mr Varadker, but I have no personal knowlege of this, only what I have read. I certainly have not seen photos of them standing with Mr Varadker by the Hornby level crossing "gates" in Tubercurry, or by those parts of the disused line that are subject to adverse posession.

My question to the Minister is aimed at finding out whether preferential access is being given to West On Track. If such preferential access is being given, then that needs to be explained as West On Track does not have a monopoly in presenting "community" views. My "rant" is a rational critique of what is, in my view, a wholly profligate and inappropriate spending of public money on a project with marginal (at best) benefits to the public which has led to empty trains taking two hours to run from Limerick to Galway and back.

You are entitled to your view of course, but making personal remarks as to my being "misguided", "ranting" and "banging on" hardly demonstrates a willingness to engage in rational discussion. I will let others judge if my letter is poorly researched, poorly written and inaccurate. Personally, I think it is bang on.

errigalclimber

Serfboard, the caption to the photo on the West On Track website refers, and I quote, to "Members [plural] of West on Track pictured with Transport Minister Leo Varadkar TD and Jim Meade, Director, Rail Undertaking, Iarnród Éireann."

So, if it is stretching credibility it is not me doing the stretching!

serfboard

errigalclimber wrote: »

Serfboard, the caption to the photo on the West On Track website refers, and I quote, to "Members [plural] of West on Track pictured with Transport Minister Leo Varadkar TD and Jim Meade, Director, Rail Undertaking, Iarnród Éireann."

So, if it is stretching credibility it is not me doing the stretching!

Agreed. The quote I used was from their website.

errigalclimber

And I can understand WOT wishing to publicise their advocacy and perhaps even wishing to take credit, but I want to ensure that the alternative view receives a fair hearing, at Ministerial level and otherwise.

what_traffic

What a greenway can mean to a local economy.
Picture and caption says it all. Was taken Saturday the 12th of October at the Mulranny Park Hotel

RT @galwaycycling Pile of bikes on the Western #Greenway at the Mulranny Park Hotel at 14h40 today.
https://twitter.com/GalwayCycling/status/389023748797775872/photo/1/large?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=GalwayCycling&utm_content=389023748797775872

relaxed

errigalclimber wrote: »

Relaxed, the €100m was manifestly still being spent as the sub-prime bubble burst in 2007. That is fact - it is not misguided, it is self evident.

Did the greenway advocates meet Mr Varadker? I understand they met a junior minister and received a letter from Mr Varadker, but I have no personal knowlege of this, only what I have read. I certainly have not seen photos of them standing with Mr Varadker by the Hornby level crossing "gates" in Tubercurry, or by those parts of the disused line that are subject to adverse posession.

My question to the Minister is aimed at finding out whether preferential access is being given to West On Track. If such preferential access is being given, then that needs to be explained as West On Track does not have a monopoly in presenting "community" views. My "rant" is a rational critique of what is, in my view, a wholly profligate and inappropriate spending of public money on a project with marginal (at best) benefits to the public which has led to empty trains taking two hours to run from Limerick to Galway and back.

You are entitled to your view of course, but making personal remarks as to my being "misguided", "ranting" and "banging on" hardly demonstrates a willingness to engage in rational discussion. I will let others judge if my letter is poorly researched, poorly written and inaccurate. Personally, I think it is bang on.

There was no indication of austerity in Ireland when this €100m was being spent, which is what your letter is claiming.

Linking Lehmen brothers to rebuilding Ennis - Athenry is stretching it a long way!!!

errigalclimber

Relaxed, you are manifestly wrong, but we will simply have to agree to differ.

eastwest

relaxed wrote: »

There was no indication of austerity in Ireland when this €100m was being spent, which is what your letter is claiming.

Linking Lehmen brothers to rebuilding Ennis - Athenry is stretching it a long way!!!

I think what is really relevant is not what happened in the past, but what may happen in the future.
Clearly, given the failure of Ennis-Athenry to deliver numbers, no government is going to squander further taxpayer funds on compounding the error.
When you add to that the fact that no government ever planned to do anything with the Claremorris-Collooney route, and the veiled hint by Leo Varadkar when he said that his priority was to keep existing lines open, anyone who looks at this dispassionately can see that the so-called 'western rail corridor' is off the table for decades, at best. The Claremorris-Collooney route was unviable in an era when nobody had a car; what chance would it have now?
Varadkar would clearly love to close Ennis-Athenry and other loss-makers, but the clamour from the assortment of bishops and rail buffs wouldn't be worth it. He won't give them any more toys to play with though; the first bit will be the last bit.
It's a pity that the local politicians in Mayo and Sligo are so locked into the railway promise that they can't see the possibilities of tourism, but that's how it is, and nobody will change that.
By comparison, I see that many of the Kerry councillors who were opposed to a greenway on the Listowel line have changed sides quietly this week, following a door-to -door survey that showed almost 90% of residents to be in favour of the greenway. Could the Sligo and Mayo councillors make the same U-turn, or have they built careers on promising trains?
Are they just a lot 'cuter' in Kerry?

Victor

Grandeeod wrote: »

I know nothing except that these WRC people directly and indirectly are off the planet more than the moon! What upsets me most is the fact that WRC supportive posters here can be easily identified from their "likes" under extremely sad posts on that facebook page. They come on here and avail of a reasonably free to debate facility, cause mayhem, bans, infractions etc. but on that facebook page they are protected from any debate whatsoever. But thats the internet for you.

Personally I'd like to see them in the open and up for public debate with their faces seen and opinions backed up by real names. Put it on TV, because I guarantee you that every last one of them will be found wanting. The WRC campaign has to be the most spineless example of campaigning ever. Full of spin and hiding from the reality that exists. Its tantamount to (actually I cant say it for fear of a ban on boards).

Do not insult people.

Do not speculate on peoples' identities.

Moderator

serfboard

eastwest wrote: »

have they built careers on promising trains?

Yes.

However, I can't see why they can't just roll out the standard excuse of "them lot in Dublin etc. etc." and say that since there's no funding "coming down the tracks" (;)) for the railway, we might as well try and make use of it somehow ...

galwaycyclist

eastwest wrote: »

Are they just a lot 'cuter' in Kerry?

Part of the issue in Kerry may be that the County Council and the NRA just got a very bloody nose and much egg on faces regarding the N86 upgrade on the Dingle peninsula.

They spent EU1million on a road upgrade proposal that included putting "tourist cycle paths" directly beside a national road - with the cyclists 1-2m away from HGVs doing 100km/h. An Bord Pleanala threw out the cycle path and then threw out the whole thing.

So now as a result of trying to be "cute" and trying to avoid using the old Dingle railway alignment for the cycle path - they have lost the whole road scheme.

If they had come up with a plan to put the cycle path on a separate alignment and do the road separately they could have gotten both. Now they have nothing to show for their 1million.

Perhaps reality is sinking home in Kerry?

eastwest

Reality sinks in a lot more slowly in the west, I'm afraid.

Copyerselveson

Looks like Galway County Council won't support the Greenway proposals.

Greenway Project ‘is not even on Minister’s radar’

By TONY GALVIN
TUAM HERALD

24 October 2013

A GREENWAY for Tuam and its environs along the disused rail corridor is not "even on the Minister's radar" and the focus is entirely on building a cycle route from Dublin to Galway and out as far as Clifden in Connemara.

This was stated by Athenry-based Cllr Peter Feeney who told Monday's meeting of Galway Co Council that he had this information from Transport Minister Leo Varadkar's own mouth and he agreed fully with him on this.

He was speaking during a debate which was prompted by Tuam-based Cllr Shaun Cunniffe's attempts to at least get a local group's proposal to develop a cycling and walking path along sections of the rail line mentioned in the County Development Plan as a possible option.

Earlier attempts to have the Greenway proposal adopted, or even considered, have been roundly rejected by the council, which is resolutely behind the Western Rail Corridor campaign. They hope to see the Athenry -Claremorris line reopened and again connecting Tuam to the national network.

However, Cllr Cunniffe was steadfast in his advocacy of the Greenway proposal. He argued that there was little likelihood of the rail link being reopened, even with the existing road infrastructure in place; but with the Gort-Tuarn M17 motorway
in the pipeline, there was absolutely none. His concern was that the cycle and walking plan was being excluded from the county's plans and this was unnecessarily restricting their options for development, especially tourism and recreational development.

Director of Services Kevin Kelly pointed out that this argument had been made several times in the past and had been rejected by Cllr Cunniffe's colleagues each time. He added that it would seem counter-productive for the council to support the rail campaign while prejudicing this goal by putting a counter-proposal forward.

Peter Feeney said he found it astonishing that anyone should suggest they should settle for an inferior transport system in the West, especially a public representative. He argued that the proper development of all infrastructure in the region, roads, rail and broadband, could prove a counterbalance to the sprawling and unsustainable expansion of Dublin and the East coast.

"We're looking at peak oil and are going to have to change our attitude to transport. The car is on the way out and mass public transport is the way of the future. This is not a time to jettison a vital artery of ourinfrastructure. Rail is already being used by companies such as Coca Cola, Coillte and Baxter in Mayo. We need to be lobbying harder, not giving up,” he argued.

There were appeals for the Tuam Greenway group to sit down with rail campaigners and see if an alternative Greenway route could be found, but it was made clear that the vast majority of members remained fully in support of the rail campaign and Cllr Cunniffe received no support for his argument.

www.tuamherald.ie

MayoForSam

The car is on the way out and mass public transport is the way of the future

Good luck with that one :rolleyes:

I'm really hoping a few of those Galway county councilors turn up on my doorstep next year before the elections so I make a few candid points about the difference between pragmatism and romanticism when it comes to transport, civic amenities and tourist infrastructure in the west.

Personally I would love it if some day we discovered about 10 billion barrels of oil off west Mayo, the entire western seaboard became California overnight and the population increased tenfold to make mass transport viable but I don't see it happening.

I'd be the first one on the train for my daily 50 mile commute to Ballina. But I'd prefer the odd cycle over to Milltown at the weekend and that might actually come to be some day in the not too distant future.

corktina

Quote"We're looking at peak oil and are going to have to change our attitude to transport. The car is on the way out and mass public transport is the way of the future. This is not a time to jettison a vital artery of ourinfrastructure. Rail is already being used by companies such as Coca Cola, Coillte and Baxter in Mayo. We need to be lobbying harder, not giving up,” he argued.Unquote

Peak oil-smoil. Electric cars are already here and will replace oil-fired cars eventually. It won't be The Train that does this or even The Bus. As I never miss an opportunity to point out, Roads lead to everyone's front door and destination. Public Transport is not most people's mode of choice. Most would prefer their own personal transport and that won't change.

Tuam Greenway Project

Copyerselveson wrote: »

Looks like Galway County Council won't support the Greenway proposals.



www.tuamherald.ie

Not that I was counting:)- but 8 out of the last 10 posts on the West on Track FB page relate to Greenways. Practically ALL media reports on the WRC in the last 6 months relate to Greenways, bar references to Oranmore Station ( which isn't really on the WRC) . So I'd say unless the Greenway campaigners are planning to go away anytime soon ( and we are not ) the Greenway v nothing debate will endure. Unless of course there is a major rail announcement eminent from Mayo Co Co.

Laviski

corktina wrote: »

Quote"We're looking at peak oil and are going to have to change our attitude to transport. The car is on the way out and mass public transport is the way of the future. This is not a time to jettison a vital artery of ourinfrastructure. Rail is already being used by companies such as Coca Cola, Coillte and Baxter in Mayo. We need to be lobbying harder, not giving up,” he argued.Unquote

Peak oil-smoil. Electric cars are already here and will replace oil-fired cars eventually. It won't be The Train that does this or even The Bus. As I never miss an opportunity to point out, Roads lead to everyone's front door and destination. Public Transport is not most people's mode of choice. Most would prefer their own personal transport and that won't change.

I think you should run for politics next round you sure do love stating the same thing in this thread and a few others do over and over. If not politics i think Micheal o Leary is hiring too as every statement he makes always contains the same phrases. Please bring something new to this thread than repeating yourself over.

corktina

there is nothing new to bring to this debate. You may not like it but the fact is that the WRC is a non-starter, Rail has limited uses at which it does well, a local low speed line serving tiny villages is not one of these.

Instead of attacking my post with comments of no substance, why don't you try refuting the substance of it?