Ireland's abortion laws challenged in Europe

sparkling sea

The Corinthian wrote: »

If you're going to try avoiding answering a point, you'll find that simply not responding until it blows over works a lot better than trying to trivialize it and bring attention to yourself.

Have no problen answering questions, didn't understand what you were asking - I thought you were trying to be funny.

If its that you think I was chastizing another commentator, I wasn't just giving my opinion

If thats the wrong point, can you let me have the question again.

The Corinthian

My point was that that you accused someone of oversimplification, when you are actually guilty of doing the same. As such, your argument against him lost credibility.

sparkling sea

drkpower wrote: »

The pain or suffering argument is of no value - the foetus could be very easily anaesthetised or otherwise made unable to feel pain if that is the concern.

And you are also mistaken in your consciousness argument. We don't turn off a life support machine where they have no 'consciousness', we turn them off because there is no prospect of 'consciousness' returning. Big difference.

Isn't knowledge very limited with regard to whether or not there is a prospect of consciousness returning.
Isn't it more an educated guess - allowing for the fact that the medical knowledge in this field is very limited.
And with regard to a fetus again there is great uncertainty as to when consciousness takes occurs.
This is a question - I am not trying to catch you out

sparkling sea

The Corinthian wrote: »

My point was that that you accused someone of oversimplification, when you are actually guilty of doing the same. As such, your argument against him lost credibility.

Oh right, I don't agree with you, I wasnt accusing anybody of anything I was stating my opinion, I will leave the accusations to others and if you think my arguement lost credibility, as you do, thats your right.

drkpower

sparkling sea wrote: »

Isn't knowledge very limited with regard to whether or not there is a prospect of consciousness returning.
Isn't it more an educated guess - allowing for the fact that the medical knowledge in this field is very limited.
And with regard to a fetus again there is great uncertainty as to when consciousness takes occurs.
This is a question - I am not trying to catch you out

In the fetus, conciousness will (all things being normal) definitely develop.
In the adult, there may be a theoretical prospect of consciousness returning but in 99+% of cases, it will definitely not return.

sparkling sea

drkpower wrote: »

In the fetus, conciousness will (all things being normal) definitely develop.
In the adult, there may be a theoretical prospect of consciousness returning but in 99+% of cases, it will definitely not return.

Would you agree that knowledge is very limited in this area and this is widely accepted

sparkling sea

A ruling on the case before the ECHR won't be given until next Spring, so this arguement will rage on until then and for a long time after.

And the Irish Medical Council has issued new guidelines which will allow for surplus human embryos from fertility treatment to be destroyed. These guidelines were issued last month according to the Times.

drkpower

sparkling sea wrote: »

Would you agree that knowledge is very limited in this area and this is widely accepted

In what area?
In cases where a life support machine is 'turned off' there is almost no prospect of consciousness returning. Of course not everything about this complex area is known, but that is.

What point are you trrying to make?

sparkling sea

drkpower wrote: »

In what area?
In cases where a life support machine is 'turned off' there is almost no prospect of consciousness returning. Of course not everything about this complex area is known, but that is.

What point are you trrying to make?

That very little is known in real terms with regard to people who are on life support, their cognative ability, etc.

drkpower

sparkling sea wrote: »

That very little is known in real terms with regard to people who are on life support, their cognative ability, etc.

Well, its all relative; quite a bit is known; quite a bit isnt. But, the point I was illustrating was that the analogy between the adult on a life support machine and conciousness and the foetus and consciousness is invalid; whatever we do and dont know, we know that a foetus will certainly develop conciousness (all things being normal) while the reason we allow ourselves to turn off the machine in an adult is because we do not anticipate that conciousness will return (even if we cannot be certain). If the evidence ever suggested strongly that conciousness certainly would return in such adults (in a matter of weeks), we would never allow the machines to be turned off.

Jules

Right,

This thread doesnt reflect how abortion and the choice to be free to have one or not effects a woman, and and as per always with abortion threads in tll the lads jump in and the ladies voices get drowned out and what is the point of the forum! It is a shame cuz as Silverfish has said this thread was quiet good but it has decended into a humanities thread. I really wish we could have a proper conversation about this in tLL as... well don't think i need to explain that!

Xiney

Right!

Sorry for the delay in reopening the thread, I was afk for a few days and given my level of involvement in its moderation my co-mods didn't want to reopen it before I'd had a chance to throw in my 2 cents.

Hopefully everyone's cooled their jets a bit as well and we can get back to one of the most reasoned discussions on this subject that I've ever seen.


To clarify the rules from here on in:

1. No calling the other side anything but pro-life/pro-choice. It's a slippery slope from one thing that's harmless enough to another that isn't.
2. No linking to disturbing images.
3. Be civil. Anything less will be looked at in a very dim light by myself and my co-mods. If you feel a post crosses the line, please report it rather than responding or calling troll on thread. If we feel it requires action we will take it.

The Corinthian

Before the thread progresses again, can we have clarification on whether "the lads" may discuss this?

I, and others, posted earlier that the choice of this forum implies that it is exclusively a woman's issue, something that "the lads" and others would strongly contest. However, this would appear to be confirmed from Jules's comment that it is to be treated as a woman's issue (how exclusively I don't know, as it is difficult to gauge what she means by "downed out").

If it is, then please let us "lads" know and we won't pollute the discussion with our irrelevant input.

Silverfish

The choice of forum does not imply it's solely a womans issue, but that it will be discussed from a woman's point of view.

If the gentlemen would like to discuss it from their point of view, there is the Gentlemens Club, alternatively, the Humanities forum.

Men are welcome to post, as always, but we ask them to be mindful and respectful of what forum they are posting in.

drkpower

Almost every significant 'women's issue' concerns men anyway (or at least men who give a sh!t) - men and women have an awful of habit of setting up lives to gether, having children together and generally being entirely reliant on one another. Useless gits....

So clearly this debate should involve both, but given the effects of this issue, the views of women are particularly important and illustrative.

Kooli

drkpower wrote: »

Almost every significant 'women's issue' concerns men anyway (or at least men who give a sh!t) - men and women have an awful of habit of setting up lives to gether, having children together and generally being entirely reliant on one another. Useless gits....

So clearly this debate should involve both, but given the effects of this issue, the views of women are particularly important and illustrative.

But surely it's pretty clear that abortion will affect men and women different ways, and each has different roles. So while there was a general discussion on abortion in Humanities, it makes sense to have somewhere to look at the issue from a woman's perspective.

The Corinthian

Silverfish wrote: »

The choice of forum does not imply it's solely a womans issue, but that it will be discussed from a woman's point of view.

If the gentlemen would like to discuss it from their point of view, there is the Gentlemens Club, alternatively, the Humanities forum.

Men are welcome to post, as always, but we ask them to be mindful and respectful of what forum they are posting in.

So men are welcome to post... from a woman's point of view.

Fair enough, them's the rules, but I'll admit I'm not comfortable with it, so I'll pass. Sounds too much like "give me your opinion as long as it sounds like mine, but with a deeper voice" for me.

Xiney

Once again, this is the Ladies' Lounge.

If you don't like the angle on the discussions here, you are more then welcome to "pass". Specifically if it's because you're a man and you want to discuss something from a man's perspective.... in the LADIES Lounge.

Won't be saying it again folks, if you're posting to complain about our lack of testicular support then I suggest you go to the Gentleman's Club and ask for a cup.

Dr Kamikazi

Xiney wrote: »

Once again, this is the Ladies' Lounge.

If you don't like the angle on the discussions here, you are more then welcome to "pass". Specifically if it's because you're a man and you want to discuss something from a man's perspective.... in the LADIES Lounge.

Won't be saying it again folks, if you're posting to complain about our lack of testicular support then I suggest you go to the Gentleman's Club and ask for a cup.

I'll have you know that proper support is just as important to men as it is to women, nothing worse than an undergarment that doesn't support you or rides up and over!
Other than that, yes, don't let those guys bully you, show them what for!
But also be aware that the people deciding on this case will mostly be male (as they usually are) and in the end do you feel comfortable with yet again a bunch of blokes sitting round a table and deciding women's fate?

sparkling sea

Dr Kamikazi wrote: »

But also be aware that the people deciding on this case will mostly be male (as they usually are) and in the end do you feel comfortable with yet again a bunch of blokes sitting round a table and deciding women's fate?

No

metrovelvet

Dr Kamikazi wrote: »

I'll have you know that proper support is just as important to men as it is to women, nothing worse than an undergarment that doesn't support you or rides up and over!
Other than that, yes, don't let those guys bully you, show them what for!
But also be aware that the people deciding on this case will mostly be male (as they usually are) and in the end do you feel comfortable with yet again a bunch of blokes sitting round a table and deciding women's fate?

It is not just the fate of women at stake, but the fate of fathers or not to be fathers, or of thousands and thousands of people who will either exist or not exist.

Boston

Silverfish wrote: »

The choice of forum does not imply it's solely a womans issue, but that it will be discussed from a woman's point of view.

If the gentlemen would like to discuss it from their point of view, there is the Gentlemens Club, alternatively, the Humanities forum.

Men are welcome to post, as always, but we ask them to be mindful and respectful of what forum they are posting in.

I've read though this thread and fair enough the father prospective isn't the topic but as pointed it out its very difficult to talk about about a womans/the mothers prospective in complete isolation of the other. Several female posters on this thread have found it difficult to limit themselves to "the female viewpoint" and instead have offered up the female viewpoint as it relates to the male view point. When that happens why shouldn't a counter stance be made? I see very little wrong with what the Corinthian is posting other that he's challenging some opinions in a largely gender neutral way though I may have missed a post or two. Feel free to delete, shift, move and ban.

Silverfish

With all due respect Boston, you are not aware of deleted posts, multiple pm's received by each of moderators, and discussions in the background.

Three moderators have made this position clear. Any further quoting and discussion of moderating decisions will be considered off-topic and removed.

Now, if people actually want to discuss whether abortion should be available in Ireland or not, then continue, otherwise, there's no need to post.
Thank you.

Boston

Silverfish wrote: »

Now, if people actually want to discuss whether abortion should be available in Ireland or not, then continue, otherwise, there's no need to post.
Thank you.

I thought the topic of the thread was whether or not the European Court of Human Rights should be able to overrule three democratic Irish referenda. The obvious answer for me as a republican (The good kind, not the blow up a pub kind), is no. That said, I do think it regrettable that these woman couldn't avail of abortions here, as they each have genuine reasons for seaking them.

Moi 2 cents.

metrovelvet

Silverfish wrote: »

With all due respect Boston, you are not aware of deleted posts, multiple pm's received by each of moderators, and discussions in the background.

Three moderators have made this position clear. Any further quoting and discussion of moderating decisions will be considered off-topic and removed.

Now, if people actually want to discuss whether abortion should be available in Ireland or not, then continue, otherwise, there's no need to post.
Thank you.

So basically the woman's perspective on whether or not women should have to travel to get one or be able to walk across the street to the local clinic?

Walls

One of these women was obliged to get an abortion abroad on foot of an ectopic pregnancy. A pregnancy in this circumstance has no chance of a viable life for the child, and is potentially life threatening to the woman in question, and certainly very dangerous.

Why the **** was she obliged to go abroad? Anyone? She's not going to give birth to a child, and her life is clearly at stake?

In such circumstances the refusal to carry out an abortion is medical negligence of the highest order, and the fact that there is a legislative framework to support such a decision is supporting negligence with regard to half the population.

metrovelvet

I thought abortion was available under those circumstances?

Walls

In response to my question elsewhere I was told that hospitals are not obliged to provide abortions and can say they refuse to do so on ethical grounds, which is leaving patients high and dry and with no other option than to go abroad.

That is outrageous, no matter what way you look at it.

Boston

In Ireland? No. You'd also have to find a doctor who agreed. ectopic pregnancy can be terminated but no the the suspicion of ectopic pregnancy alone. I don't really understand that one as afaik (I'm not a doctor) its something easy to pick up and if she really had ectopic pregnancy she could have got an abortion here.

Walls

She wasn't suspected of one, she had one, and a scan would have revealed it as such. She was denied medical care with no viable alternative than to go abroad. No one in their right mind can believe that is acceptable.