Ireland - lack of air and naval defence.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118946943#Comment_118946943

There was significant blind spots in the National Government at the time of the Treaty Talks, it’s only that the RAF weren’t represented at the talks that we didn’t have them permanently stationed here, as from the released documents while the Government (both the Dev wing and the Collins wing) had issues with the Treaty Ports there was no such concern about an airbase. And of course technically the U.K. had the right to ask for airbases for the Ports but never did.

The GHQ of the day had “ambitions” but they were far beyond what the state could afford at the time, and certainly after the Civil War, after which the Government never supported huge spending on the DF anyway.

ancientmariner

Exactly correct. In the navy we discarded the whole TAS Department, the TAS School and Simulator, and all the rating and officer appointments associated with Tactical Anti-Submarine. Hopefully we will be more prescriptive and follow the manual on forming a Defence Force

ancientmariner

The UK have a fully equipped frigate with latest AD missile system patrolling UK waters and I believe a CAP on known routes. They have the luxury of a shared ATC/Surveillance with the Civil side. We have Mount Gabriel and Eagle Island but no defence screens. Pity we let P31's 31,400 sq. mile surveillance capability die of neglect (Pi times 100nm squared). If the UK are making provisions for RU testing, we need to wake up.

ancientmariner

For the sceptics on Coastal defence just to remind people that a strike missile took out RU Cruiser MOSKVA and now the RU Frigate Admiral MAKAROV is on fire in the Black Sea believed hit according to Ukrainian info. Requirement is detection to seaward with tracking plus strike missile range about 300km. Their ability to come to grips with the CDA need was only achieved latterly in the second month of the Putin's war. It shows that real defence must cover all dimensions and routes of attack.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119026715#Comment_119026715

You are leaving out of course the fact that the US is providing the Ukrainians the intel needed to target and exploit the weaknesses of the Moskva. You are also ignoring the fact that the only maritime powers that could threaten us are Western ones without the massive issues of the Russians.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119030304#Comment_119030304

Keep in mind also that because Russia imposed a maritime blockade on Ukraine, anything popping up on Radar in Ukrainian waters is a Russian asset and fair game for a blind over the horizon missile attack.

Not as easy when you are dealing with a busy shipping channel.

Gary kk

Times are changing, satellites are getting cheap. Maybe the DF gets one to help monitor.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119030774#Comment_119030774

That's not how it works.

ancientmariner

All of that and use of Intel or eyeballs is inconsequential to our problems. Specialist Irish Services which are equipment specific such as the Navy and Air Corps have been weaned away from frontline capabilities by an ongoing phase of equipment churning which removed fighting ships and aircraft in favour of miscellaneous patrol and ferry duties, good on optics and ok for housekeeping, ATCP and ATCA but no Defence Capability.

We can joke and see no enemy and follow the CS view of more Garda and less soldiers and sailors. Policy is where we are at.

ancientmariner

At last my ship type has come home. designed by the VARD 7 series. It is a 125m OPV development with Lloyds. Approval in principle.

It is outfitted with a mix of barrels, latest types, also AD and ship strike missiles, and fitted with additional " cubes" including torpedoes from either beam. Low signature design, fully stabilised, for defence/offence duties. Full suite of electronics for detection tracking and engagement. It has other logistical uses and space for extra bodies. Crew may be in need of squeezing to get to less than proposals. It also of course has a flight deck. That coupled with a 295 MPA, equipped with anti-ship missiles would close some gaps in our EEZ. See the videos put out by Vard.

Dohvolle

https://youtu.be/ptYw8JI4m-I

This one? I like how it incorporates the Cube system.

https://youtu.be/OgnsOr5sVmM

Rather than being a jack of all trades, equip the ship for the role it is engaged in at the time instead, leave the unnecessary kit at home.

jonnybigwallet

Superb lookin ship. Ticks all the boxes. Just the ticket to send out if Jonny Russian comes prowlin around again. Hope we can get this one past the bean counters.

donvito99

This is the logical Eithne replacement. Sufficiently multirole but fundamentally designed around the bread and butter military taskings.

As AM points out, crewing is an issue. But in theory, this is a bigger Beckett, so the core crew shouldn't be dissimilar from the current standard.

ancientmariner

Crewing has to be designed around full Action stations and the Duration of a particular action or Stand-To. This enables a ship to handle the balance of positions manned 24/7 and sleeping and feeding. Action messing is take away soup and sandwiches.

The ship in question covers the full range of capabilities needed and is available in a 115m version also. If we want to be meaningful we have to aspire to ships of this type.

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021074#Comment_119021074

Whats on Eagle Island?

ancientmariner

Don't know why I mentioned Eagle island. I needed to look at a NOTAM map which shows Nine radar points from Malin area in the North to Mount Gabriel in the South. It includes East and South Coast coverage. There are 4 on the West coast. There is a Bn near Achill Island as there are also on the Aran islands off Galway.

ancientmariner

For many years Ireland has built up a multi-faceted digital/electronic Industry Base. Much of what these industries are doing are embedded systems that can be extended to military Control and management systems, including missile guidance systems. I remember being in Phillips Signaal in Henglo Holland, when we were on a course for the P31 systems. We were taken for a tour of the Factory and spoke to the team building the radars for the then new British Frigates in 1983. The radars were multi frequency travelling wave tube type to avoid frequency jamming. The brains of the radar were built by a company based in Galway.

Given the proximity of Shorts, there is no reason why we couldn't manufacture Medium and short range missile systems, including controls and fixed and mobile mounts. There are many Irish digital components and whole systems within western battlefield systems.

We could under license or within our own resources meet our own Defence needs and buy our specialist platforms as needed such as Aircraft and vessels.

Gary kk

Isn't there someone working on a IVF for Korea.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243023#Comment_119243023

Shorts Belfast operation was sold to Spirit Aero Systems in 2019. Its missile operation is now part of Thales Air Defence since 2001.

There are many multinationals in the tech sector in Ireland producing components used in the Defence industry, but they don't shout about it, due to a long held policy of the IDA not to support the defence sector, and people in the Governments industry department being overly concerned about what NGO do-gooders like AFRI and Amnesty International think of our military output.

Man Vs ManUre

What will we do if the pirates of the Caribbean get licqured up on rum and decide to sail here and attack us??

Leonidas BL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243946#Comment_119243946

Get you new knickers from Pennies as you will probably have filled your old ones with ManUre.

ancientmariner

AS a reasonable interim measure we should equip our ships with the best Manpads and ATGMs in the Air Defence role (MISTRAL) and anti-ship role (JAVELIN or better) Say 4 of each with re-loads. Most portable systems can be used from any moving platform

Sgt. Bilko 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119260291#Comment_119260291

The vast majority our manpads need replacing. The Javelin is to upgraded or replaced this year as it was delayed last year due to Covid.

A lot of weapons are due for upgraded a during 2022 if you refer to the equipment development plan 2020-2024. (2020 to 2021 was a non runner due to restrictions).

jonnybigwallet

I see the brits are now talking about upping defense spending from 2% to 2.5% as a result of the state of the world, Russia etc. Ireland should go straight to LOA 3 in my opinion.

Dohvolle

I see recent visitor to these shores, the Netherlands Navy's Karel Doorman is getting a 76mm Sovraponte and RAM to replace the Goalkeepers currently fitted.

Thats quite a step up.

Sgt. Bilko 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119261019#Comment_119261019

That upgraded was brought forward to be complete before 2024, all these alterations necessary for a functional navy really make out situation look horrendously bad. I seen a clip online of a passenger vessel leaving the port in cork and a passenger filmed 7 out of 9 naval vessels roped up in port.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119261319#Comment_119261319

3 out of the fleet are permanently tied up, while 1 is in the dockyard being sandblasted at the moment, Beckett is gone for a month...

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119261319#Comment_119261319

Saw that.

Even in the worst days of the last recession we were managing to keep at least 4/8 ship at sea all the time. You never saw more than 3 ships tied up, and usually only on a Sunday evening, before the Monday morning when ships headed on patrols.

Sgt. Bilko 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119261497#Comment_119261497

Ah that would explain it, that video clip got a fair bit of traction

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262522#Comment_119262522

It’s still an appalling situation that shows no sign of being addressed by either the DOD or Government, no question there.