Ireland - lack of air and naval defence.

Markcheese

Jaysus , are you sure you don't want to chuck an aircraft carrier and a few nuclear subs in there as well . seems a bit ... Ambitious maybe .. again what's the navy for ? .. however I'd agree with designing the future multirole vessel ( s) to be able to be as multi-functional as possible in the future .. wether that's a vehicle deck , capacity to transport multiple Containers hopefully with power supply if needed , or a flight deck/ hanger area or crane ..

I still reckon a large off shore support vessel could fit the bill as a basic design .. they're designed to be flexible ,and to handle the roughest of weather ..

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119293998#Comment_119293998

It’s pretty much as basic a navy as you could have with nothing special in the list tbh.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119294408#Comment_119294408

Ok - maybe I went for a bit of hyperbole ,

So we have 6 opvs currently .. ( and can't crew them ) , at least 4 of those could have a flight deck ,and radars added if desired , (the back of a Becket is fairly substantial)

We've 2 inshore patrol vessels coming , ( honestly I'd add the soon to be retired revenue cutters to that , even if only for an skua marra ( still a lot better than what they had a few years back )

We're not likely to get minesweepers , although we could reconfigure at least 2 opvs to be more capable of that role - with a view to being replaced with more purpose designed mine sweeper/ opvs when the time comes ..

And then 1 or 2 multirole vessels ( it'll probably be 1) ? Would they replace existing opvs

But ultimately what would 10 vessels do around our coast ? Especially when the new casas come online soon ?

How many days at sea would the navy want/expect them each to do ?

Would we be better off focusing on making the naval service more attractive for young recruits , with better accomodation options , better college and apprenticeship options , better work/ life balance and career options beyond the naval service ?

Gary kk

Can see the dept of public expenditure giving enough money for two new helis and a pay rise for personal. They will probably clap themselves on the back after.

Markcheese

https://www.capda.com.au/abfc-ocean-shield/

I cant find it now but when the Aussie navy first took on this yoke to patrol northern Australian waters they expected it to be at sea over 300 days a year , I've no idea how that worked out either ... Admittedly that was patrolling the northern part of a continent ...

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119294543#Comment_119294543

What makes you think the Navy should only be operating in our waters? What makes you think two CASAs replacing two CASAs will radically change matters from what they have been given that two aren’t enough anyway?

Markcheese

2 casas Aren't enough for what ?

And you're right I had kind of assumed the Irish navy would be largely operating in Irish waters .. although if a vessel were to be used for something like the med mission then great ..

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119295236#Comment_119295236

For patrolling our seas, particularly with the potential increase of patrols in the Irish Sea, and as they aren’t true MPAs so again are relatively blind to any subsurface activities. And yeah the navy should be tasked with other operations, there’s UNFIL for example or the EU patrols off Africa that we should have looked at years ago.

Dohvolle

We should still be involved in EUNAVFOR MED Irini, at far more than just HQ level. If not with a ship then with a maritime patrol aircraft.

Alkers

It is timely that an Taoiseach is visiting Ukraine currently, the extent of devastation he sees might go some way to increasing the appetite for adequate defence spending

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299158#Comment_119299158

He only sees the contracts for redevelopment...

ancientmariner

Judging by his verbal interactions he was shocked by scenes of wartime destruction. It will have been his first experience of seeing wartime damage. From our side we must encourage making all parts of our PDF relevant to modern warfare. Many MPA's referred to are adaptions and marinized for SW Flying. I'd imagine anything equipped appropriately with endurance of 7hrs plus can do an adequate job. Our ships of whatever type must also be relevant and not just targets. The MRV as well as intended roles must be capable of mothering ships on tasks where resupply is a need.

[Deleted User]

I’m posting the tweet as it saves typing it out and gives the source simultaneously.

We will know very soon if they’re going for it or not. If they do there has been a huge U turn. That can only have been brought about by massive external pressure. The price for the Protocol and Biden hanging tough with the UK?

I have no faith in MM. He is at heart a naive pacifist and close to Home Rule/unionism and his experiences in Ukraine will only reinforce his belief that all fighting is wrong and surrender is the best policy. He will say different of course but I think he has been told by Eastern European states and others that Ireland must do more. The danger is that the more will be focussed on “peace building” and support roles (look at the PESCO tasks today) so that he can claim we’re implementing a LOA2 but gain damn all in capacity for air or naval Defence. That leaves the way open for an alliance and the continued dependency on the UK in particular. Alliances are needed. But the EU should come first.

The direction of Ireland in the 21st century in IR and Defence will be set next week. I’m leaning toward a version of the above as most likely and fundamentally a fudge.

Dohvolle

In the same vein as the above post, I am posting a picture of a Banana.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119304505#Comment_119304505

Time will tell if MM goes the way I predict. Enjoy your banana.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119304758#Comment_119304758

How much longer is MM in charge ...

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119307552#Comment_119307552

Assuming the government stays in power, December ish, the decisions on the report will be announced next week. That being said, his comments have also suggested the LoA2 area already.

Gary kk

Well next Tuesday if Sinn Fein get thier vote.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119307735#Comment_119307735

SF who last week complained they didn't have enough time to debate important legislation, now want to hold a pointless confidence vote, the result of which is already clear to anyone with a basic interest in how the Dail works.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119307735#Comment_119307735

Do they have the numbers?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119307552#Comment_119307552

True. December officially. The problem is commitments to spending will have been entered into by him which constrain what can be done elsewhere.

The deeper problem (I mentioned the DPER problem elsewhere) is what is the underlying vision about the country. Will MM going change much in FF at this stage? Only if there is a strong vision of an independent state within the EU will there be a strong financial commitment to Defence spending. People are forgetting that the DF are the way they are because of the political parties who are now looking at spending more. My belief and I hope I am wrong is a cleverly designed plan to remediate, to increase spending in areas that guarantee a toothless contribution to EU Defence, to increase spending to ensure peace keeping missions for access to UNSC and to enable claims of achieving option 2 (LoA2 in report). Defence has been a soft target for having its budget looted. Politicians will find that a hard habit to break. I hope I am wrong.

Gary kk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119307824#Comment_119307824

You know I haven't a clue. Plus did I spell their wrong. Could it be used to delay a decision?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119307824#Comment_119307824

Nope. The FG TD who lost the whip last week will continue to support the government in all other votes. His constituency elected him as an FG member, not an independent.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308670#Comment_119308670

That’s what I thought, though it would be fairly typical of the luck of the DF if when there was potentially something finally changing for the better the government fell…

Sgt. Bilko 09

The no confidence vote is just to rock the boat for the Coalition gov before recess, classic tactic by SF to try have a moan when Dáil resits prior to the early budget. I believe the exiting whip can still vote so the majority is not truly with SF on that as much as the pirates appear to believe but I think it’s just an Opportunistic motion to see what happens. Regarding, LOA 2+ It appears to be the going ahead by the sounds of it but echoing what sparkey and dohville have been pointing out, we are nearly as 10+ years away from achieving anything. It’s sad but it’s true, the current recruitment drive appears to be failing and word on the street is they are thinking of extending the deadline due to lack of interest and hoping the cost of living crisis dies down so they don’t have to increase the salary to take cost of living into consideration.

One of the senators (a friend of mine) that is on the defence committee rightly pointed out that, how can you try entice recruits when at the same time a certain minister(party is colour) has requested the troops be sent to cover for the DAAs lack off compliance. Aiding the civic power is abused and this a factor in a shocking recruitment drive.

I am not an advocate for any political party such as SF/FG or FF but as long as the colour party are there and in power, I’m afraid any good ideas for the defence forces is going to be used as a mouse pad or fall pressed against.

Dohvolle

The CoDF did mention this misuse of the DF. Hopefully the DAA debacle will be the final time we see this misuse of sailors, soldiers and aviators.

We'll know soon enough.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119209925#Comment_119209925

This was the concept behind the US’s LCSs. Total disaster, being withdrawn from service early. Not least, they would return to base, swap module, then head out only to discover that the tasking had changed, and they had the wrong module installed….

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119315760#Comment_119315760

Is that not the same with any system or piece of equipment ? , you send out,or embark vehicle a ,or ship a ,or plane a , but half way to it destination you realize you needed ship b or a different plane , and the one you want is stationed at a different base , a continent or an ocean away . .

In theory,if your multi -mission ship is based in quatar ,and you need different tech on board , you could fly out a mission cube and the appropriate techs/ crews from anywhere and install it in a hurry ...

Gary kk

So it's not tied to inflation?

[Deleted User]

Indo saying 1.5 bn a year by 2028. Inflation proofed. So over a 5 year period budget will increase year on year by 100 million.

A good part of this in the lifetime of the next government.

Defence has not been prioritized.

Consequences of this: for the final year or two of this govt remediation begins while decline will not be arrested.

Smoke and mirrors it seems.