Ireland - lack of air and naval defence.

Markcheese

Captain Chaos wrote: »

They don't have any MiG-29Ms (35), a deal was signed but nothing delivered. Most of its F-16s are older versions and need updates only about 20% are the latest models.

The Mirage 2000s are old C versions and need to be replaced. They are looking to the UAE to sell some second hand -9 versions equal to the latest F-16s in capabilities.

The Mirage Vs and MiG-21s are all being phased out so yes they do need those Rafales even though they are more expensive than the latest F-16s that the US will not sell to Egypt right now over strained relations.

They could have bought 36 Block52+ F-16s for less than what the paid for the 24 Rafales and have common spares and training with existing F-16s.

Are the Rafael's more expensive to manufacture than the f-16s ? Or is it more to do with development cost ( a couple of hundred rafales verses thousands of f-16 s -

expectationlost

IrishTrajan wrote: »

There are legitimate reasons, named time and again. Just because you don't think it necessary, doesn't mean it isn't.

so you told these people that (if we had the capabilitiy to do so) we should have shot these planes down ?

IrishTrajan

expectationlost wrote: »

so you told these people that (if we had the capabilitiy to do so) we should have shot these planes down ?

Did you not get that I was being sardonic? Please, go.

dr.fuzzenstein

Zambia wrote: »

I think every time it is ever hinted at military ties to Europe, the irish electorate crap themselves.


They are actually the closest ally we have.


Unless its an Airfix one Ireland cant afford to share the costs even if the french have a spare one they can afford to have sitting in the Shannon est.

If you wanted this ask the Yanks to build a Airforce base. They can use the rubble of Irish Neutrality to lay the foundation of the runway.


Ireland cant afford air defence. It would be nice but the piggy bank is empty.

If cash was not an Issue sure a few Jets to protect the skies would be cool.

In the case of terrorist attacks by plane. Well after 9/11 the British protected our airspace.

Sorry, that was auctioned off to the highest bidder a long time ago. Along the lines of "You want to use Shannon Airport for illegal rendition flights to torture illegally abducted "suspects" on very shaky evidence to be tortured in 3rd world countries? Sure, that'll be three fiddy!" The highest Irish principle is profit and then there's a whole lotta nothing.
By neutral we mean "we keep out of it and see who we can make money from"

KingBrian2

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Sorry, that was auctioned off to the highest bidder a long time ago. Along the lines of "You want to use Shannon Airport for illegal rendition flights to torture illegally abducted "suspects" on very shaky evidence to be tortured in 3rd world countries? Sure, that'll be three fiddy!" The highest Irish principle is profit and then there's a whole lotta nothing.
By neutral we mean "we keep out of it and see who we can make money from"

Like every other country. Were no different to Switzerland or Sweden. Profit is extremely important to many people.

IrishTrajan

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Sorry, that was auctioned off to the highest bidder a long time ago. Along the lines of "You want to use Shannon Airport for illegal rendition flights to torture illegally abducted "suspects" on very shaky evidence to be tortured in 3rd world countries? Sure, that'll be three fiddy!" The highest Irish principle is profit and then there's a whole lotta nothing.
By neutral we mean "we keep out of it and see who we can make money from"

Yes, every single American who passes through Shannon goes out to torture people. Feck off.

Also, neutrality is not breached by sale of arms, or allowing transition of soldiers from other nations.

Savage93

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Sorry, that was auctioned off to the highest bidder a long time ago. Along the lines of "You want to use Shannon Airport for illegal rendition flights to torture illegally abducted "suspects" on very shaky evidence to be tortured in 3rd world countries? Sure, that'll be three fiddy!" The highest Irish principle is profit and then there's a whole lotta nothing.
By neutral we mean "we keep out of it and see who we can make money from"

Oh go away and shake your hairy arse at the next anti water charges protest.

sparky42

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Sorry, that was auctioned off to the highest bidder a long time ago. Along the lines of "You want to use Shannon Airport for illegal rendition flights to torture illegally abducted "suspects" on very shaky evidence to be tortured in 3rd world countries? Sure, that'll be three fiddy!" The highest Irish principle is profit and then there's a whole lotta nothing.
By neutral we mean "we keep out of it and see who we can make money from"

You do realise that this nation has NEVER been neutral, even in WW2 we were blatantly Pro Allies, while at the same time doing just barely enough to claim the legal definition of neutrality (ie a quick buy of a couple of MTB's just to meet legal issues).

Please grow up, or else keep your little PANA nonsense to yourself.

dr.fuzzenstein

sparky42 wrote: »

You do realise that this nation has NEVER been neutral, even in WW2 we were blatantly Pro Allies, while at the same time doing just barely enough to claim the legal definition of neutrality (ie a quick buy of a couple of MTB's just to meet legal issues).

Please grow up, or else keep your little PANA nonsense to yourself.

That's kind of my point? The dodgy claim to neutrality? You seem to be upset about agreeing with me for some reason...
It's the principle of "We as a nation are strictly neutral and won't take sides (now just send a few quid our way and we won't look too closely at what goes on with these planes)"
Ireland should not pretend to be neutral, we should just be blatant about hooring ourselves out to the highest bidder.

IrishTrajan

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

That's kind of my point? The dodgy claim to neutrality? You seem to be upset about agreeing with me for some reason...
It's the principle of "We as a nation are strictly neutral and won't take sides (now just send a few quid our way and we won't look too closely at what goes on with these planes)"
Ireland should not pretend to be neutral, we should just be blatant about hooring ourselves out to the highest bidder.

So, you want Ireland to formally enter alliances with other powers? It's our claim to neutrality that lets us take part in so many UN missions. It's our claim to neutrality that allows the Government to cut spending in favour of "beds 'n chilluns!". It's our claim to neutrality that has left Ireland neutered with no clear ambition to even attempt at maintaining a Defence Force capable of protecting our territorial integrity.

sparky42

Seems the Bears were back again yesterday, with their transponders on this time

The Irish Aviation Authority has confirmed that two Russian military aircraft flew within Irish-controlled airspace yesterday.

In a statement the IAA said the aircraft operated within 25 nautical miles of the Irish coast.

But it said the aircraft did not enter Irish sovereign airspace at any time.

It said the flight posed no safety threat to civil aviation on this occasion.

The IAA confirmed it monitored the activity of two Russian military aircraft off the west-south/ east coast of Ireland for about four hours yesterday from about 3-7pm.

The authority said it was not informed in advance.

It comes as the British Ministry of Defence said that RAF jets were scrambled yesterday after two Russian military aircraft were seen off the Cornwall coast.

The Russian Bear bombers were escorted from the UK area of interest, but did not enter its sovereign airspace.

The IAA said the aircraft operated in North Atlantic airspace and in airspace under the control of the IAA.

Irish controlled airspace extends 256 nautical miles off the west coast of Ireland. Irish sovereign airspace extends 12 nautical miles off the Irish coast.

Last month, the Irish Aviation Authority confirmed that two Russian military aircraft, shadowed by a number of British fighter jets, flew through Irish controlled airspace off the west coast.

dr.fuzzenstein

IrishTrajan wrote: »

So, you want Ireland to formally enter alliances with other powers? It's our claim to neutrality that lets us take part in so many UN missions. It's our claim to neutrality that allows the Government to cut spending in favour of "beds 'n chilluns!". It's our claim to neutrality that has left Ireland neutered with no clear ambition to even attempt at maintaining a Defence Force capable of protecting our territorial integrity.

sparky42 wrote: »

Seems the Bears were back again yesterday, with their transponders on this time

You're still agreeing with me! And the below post just shows how much at the mercy of everyone we are when it comes to actual real threats. Imagine the Russians decided that Shannon is an important strategic target that has to be taken out? Who is going to stop it? A thousand farmers with shotguns or maybe the 3 Sopwith Camels that is the Irish Air Force?
We are entirely at the mercy of our allies and enemies, if we are a pawn that must be sacrificed, we have not input in the matter. Then suddenly we will realise that there's more to this stuff than collecting a few quiet dollars of the Yanks to use Shannon as a hub. The cute hoor approach does not help against actual missiles.

expectationlost

sparky42 wrote: »

Seems the Bears were back again yesterday, with their transponders on this time

how do you know their transponders were on?

sparky42

expectationlost wrote: »

how do you know their transponders were on?

Because this time the IAA knew that they were there...

expectationlost

sparky42 wrote: »

Because this time the IAA knew that they were there...

or were told sooner by the RAF or other country?

dr.fuzzenstein

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/russian-aircraft-entered-irish-controlled-airspace-iaa-1.2110144


Doesn't say, though the article mentioned them making a point. I'd well believe they had their transponders on, because Putin now believes the west is weak and can be intimidated. And he is right in a way, he knows he can take a lot of liberties before we respond with more than just sanctions. The last thing we want is a war and he knows it.

Markcheese

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

You're still agreeing with me! And the below post just shows how much at the mercy of everyone we are when it comes to actual real threats. Imagine the Russians decided that Shannon is an important strategic target that has to be taken out? Who is going to stop it? A thousand farmers with shotguns or maybe the 3 Sopwith Camels that is the Irish Air Force?
We are entirely at the mercy of our allies and enemies, if we are a pawn that must be sacrificed, we have not input in the matter. Then suddenly we will realise that there's more to this stuff than collecting a few quiet dollars of the Yanks to use Shannon as a hub. The cute hoor approach does not help against actual missiles.

Not much helps against actual missiles.
Shannon would only be a strategic target to get closer to the US , Uk or Western Europe - none of whom would be keen on russia taking over anyhow -
And if the Russians arrived in Shannon in force (if possible) and we had a squadron of fighters- a couple of frigates and a few AA missiles we still wouldn't last long - without help from our neighbours - who would be the reason for us being a target in the first place-

IrishTrajan

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

You're still agreeing with me! And the below post just shows how much at the mercy of everyone we are when it comes to actual real threats. Imagine the Russians decided that Shannon is an important strategic target that has to be taken out? Who is going to stop it? A thousand farmers with shotguns or maybe the 3 Sopwith Camels that is the Irish Air Force?
We are entirely at the mercy of our allies and enemies, if we are a pawn that must be sacrificed, we have not input in the matter. Then suddenly we will realise that there's more to this stuff than collecting a few quiet dollars of the Yanks to use Shannon as a hub. The cute hoor approach does not help against actual missiles.

What do you mean I'm agreeing with you? I'm pro-increasing the Defence Budget...

I think we've misinterpreted each other's stances.

IrishTrajan

Markcheese wrote: »

Not much helps against actual missiles.
Shannon would only be a strategic target to get closer to the US , Uk or Western Europe - none of whom would be keen on russia taking over anyhow -
And if the Russians arrived in Shannon in force (if possible) and we had a squadron of fighters- a couple of frigates and a few AA missiles we still wouldn't last long - without help from our neighbours - who would be the reason for us being a target in the first place-

You mean, aside from SAMs and AAMs? The point being, if we are truly neutral, we need to be truly neutral, not relying on one side to protect us.

Another point would be, if we're not going to be truly neutral, why don't we just join NATO and come under their umbrella of protection? Right now we have no ability to defend ourselves, or allies to help us. If we were in NATO, we'd at least have allies to help us.

sparky42

IrishTrajan wrote: »

You mean, aside from SAMs and AAMs? The point being, if we are truly neutral, we need to be truly neutral, not relying on one side to protect us.

Another point would be, if we're not going to be truly neutral, why don't we just join NATO and come under their umbrella of protection? Right now we have no ability to defend ourselves, or allies to help us. If we were in NATO, we'd at least have allies to help us.

To be fair, we do have an Ally, it's just the politically inconvenient one for many Irish, ie the UK. It's unlikely that any attack against us wouldn't bring them into the situation fairly quickly.

expectationlost

To ask the Minister for Defence if the Irish air force has any capability to monitor or communicate with foreign military aircraft flying through Irish airspace, including aircraft that have their transponders switched off; and if he will make a statement on the matter

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-02-18a.14&s=Baldonnel#g16.r

Simon Coveney (Minister, Department of Agriculture, the Marine and Food; Cork South Central, Fine Gael)

The Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) exercises Air Traffic Control responsibilities for an airspace of some 450,000 sq. kms comprising of both sovereign airspace and also airspace over the high seas, largely off the western seaboard. These latter responsibilities for airspace over the high seas are exercised under assignment from the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO). All air traffic, both civil and military, is monitored and controlled by the IAA in respect of this airspace in accordance with the ICAO’s safety objectives for civil aviation.
In line with ICAO rules it is normal practice for the IAA to be informed by the relevant State of any military flights operating in Irish controlled airspace.
On a routine basis, the Air Corps monitors and communicates with foreign military aircraft where such aircraft are flying in the airspace in the vicinity of Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel, where air traffic control is provided by the Defence Forces. However, the Air Corps is not tasked or equipped to monitor and communicate with military aircraft overflying Irish airspace irrespective of whether the transponder is switched on or not. This position is in accordance with the Air Corps’ roles as set out in the White Paper for Defence (2000).
The Deputy may wish to note that, under the legislative requirements of the Air Navigation (Foreign Military Aircraft) Order 1952, all military aircraft require the permission of the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade to overfly or land in the State.

In line with ICAO rules it is normal practice for the IAA to be informed by the relevant State of any military flights operating in Irish controlled airspace.

so does this happen in every case? except Russia recently.

dr.fuzzenstein

That last sentence is hilarious.
I'm sure Putin us applying to the minister as we speak.

IrishTrajan

sparky42 wrote: »

To be fair, we do have an Ally, it's just the politically inconvenient one for many Irish, ie the UK. It's unlikely that any attack against us wouldn't bring them into the situation fairly quickly.

They don't have any official obligation to join us. If we ended up at war with someone, Britain can just as easily refuse to interfere.

Unless you can get the agreement in writing, don't take it as a guarantee.

expectationlost

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

That last sentence is hilarious.
I'm sure Putin us applying to the minister as we speak.

why? Russia military have flown through/landed in Ireland and they have applied for permission.

Maybe one of more recent times this happened was when Putin and his military security landed in Dublin. (I read in a comment that was the case but Im not sure)

KingBrian2

IrishTrajan wrote: »

They don't have any official obligation to join us. If we ended up at war with someone, Britain can just as easily refuse to interfere.

Unless you can get the agreement in writing, don't take it as a guarantee.

We have become so lax militarily over the decades if we ever where attacked Britain could just waltz in to eliminate the threat. I find this troubling. We are no longer taken seriously militarily. For some reason Belgians, Estonians, Swiss, Serbians, Norwegians and New Zealanders are but we just don't give a crap about defence. Just because we don't have conscription should not be an excuse to be flippant about defending our skylines as an incident like this shows us we allow another power to come to our rescue. I say we defend ourselves and maybe some cooperation with others on hardware.

IrishTrajan

KingBrian2 wrote: »

We have become so lax militarily over the decades if we ever where attacked Britain could just waltz in to eliminate the threat. I find this troubling. We are no longer taken seriously militarily. For some reason Belgians, Estonians, Swiss, Serbians, Norwegians and New Zealanders are but we just don't give a crap about defence. Just because we don't have conscription should not be an excuse to be flippant about defending our skylines as an incident like this shows us we allow another power to come to our rescue. I say we defend ourselves and maybe some cooperation with others on hardware.

I wouldn't look for conscription, it would just dilute funding going to the military and cost us in lost taxes, so we agree there.

I would invest in the Naval Service, and give the Air Corps responsibility over defending Irish Air Space (meaning acquisition of fighters, and they take over the role of providing AA/SAM defences).

Replace the Naval Service with all Beckett-class ships, buy one or two of the Skjold-class corvettes from Norway (giving the Naval Service some serious bite).

The Becketts would cost €50m per ship, the Skjold-class corvettes would cost closer to €120 million per ship (one of them has the capability to destroy our entire naval service).

That'd cost us around €500 million, stretched out over several years. If we bought two ships a year, we could have a new fleet in 5 years.

Edit:

On the topic of hardware, maybe working with Britain to develop a new type of MBT once the Challenger comes close to the end of its life would be worth looking into. They have as much a similar climate to ours as possible. Perhaps Sweden would be another partner worth looking into, as we have troops under their command in Nordic Battlegroup.

expectationlost

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl -has this topical issue down, which may or may be discussed in Dail https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2015-02-18a.143&s=airspace#g144

the preparedness of the Air Corps to deal with incursions into airspace here by unauthorised craft

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl - the need for the Minister for Defence to make a statement on the preparedness of the Air Corps to deal with incursions into Irish airspace by unauthorised craft

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2015-02-11a.194&s=airspace#g195

note the vagueness, "incursions"? into what airspace , by whos unauthorised aircraft

IrishTrajan

expectationlost wrote: »

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl -has this topical issue down, which may or may be discussed in Dail https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2015-02-18a.143&s=airspace#g144


note the vagueness, incursion into what airspace , by whos unauthorised aircraft

It's not vague, it's in line with our neutrality policy.

Once again, we're not anti-Russia. Nobody wants us to go to war with them, we want to be able to defend our airspace FROM EVERYONE

sparky42

KingBrian2 wrote: »

We have become so lax militarily over the decades if we ever where attacked Britain could just waltz in to eliminate the threat. I find this troubling. We are no longer taken seriously militarily. For some reason Belgians, Estonians, Swiss, Serbians, Norwegians and New Zealanders are but we just don't give a crap about defence. Just because we don't have conscription should not be an excuse to be flippant about defending our skylines as an incident like this shows us we allow another power to come to our rescue. I say we defend ourselves and maybe some cooperation with others on hardware.

We have never been taken seriously militarily since Independence. At no time have we ever invested what has been needed for the military. Hell it could be argued that we are at the best that we've ever had, simply because the past has been so absolutely terrible (MTB's, Corvette's, etc)

IrishTrajan

sparky42 wrote: »

We have never been taken seriously militarily since Independence. At no time have we ever invested what has been needed for the military. Hell it could be argued that we are at the best that we've ever had, simply because the past has been so absolutely terrible (MTB's, Corvette's, etc)

We don't have any MBTs, do we?