Ireland - lack of air and naval defence.

Leonidas BL

IrishTrajan wrote: »

So little? They cost more than an F16. They're near €25 million per unit. They also aren't "fast", they reach just over the speed of sound. Great for training, not so great for deterring.

The only benefit to buying them, would be that they're light and you probably wouldn't need to spend so much renovating an airstrip. The F16 is cheaper per unit, is faster, but they're heavier (even empty, they weigh twice as much as the fully loaded Hawks) which would mean more money to renovate the airstrip.

Still, €9 million less per unit is quite a difference in cost, and would probably cover the cost of having to modify the runways and storage areas.



They can travel at a little over one thousand kilometers an hour. It's faster than the Russian Tuplov-95, but not really enough to deter anything else (Tu-22M and the Tu-160) but that would come as expected.



I also don't think you can arm the Scorpions, but they'd make more sense than buying a Hawk for training purposes.

An F16 costs less than a t-38 talon???

IrishTrajan

Leonidas BL wrote: »

An F16 costs less than a t-38 talon???

I was talking about the Hawk, which is why I addressed the question to him... He did advocate buying the Hawk from Britain, did he not? Genuine question, I'm rather confused.

I thought we were comparing the Hawk and the Scorpion..

Leonidas BL

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I was talking about the Hawk, which is why I addressed the question to him... He did advocate buying the Hawk from Britain, did he not? Genuine question, I'm rather confused.

I thought we were comparing the Hawk and the Scorpion..

Sorry, my mistake.
I have mentioned the hawk and scorpion here before but I was shot down straight away because of their speed, hence why I brought up the talon.

IrishTrajan

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Sorry, my mistake.
I have mentioned the hawk and scorpion here before but I was shot down straight away because of their speed, hence why I brought up the talon.

No worries.

The Talon isn't really even good for chasing away Tu-95s, I don't think they can be armed. If you were to modify the construction, you'd probably have to fork some money over to the company for doing it. They're like a half a million? I think that, as trainer aircraft, they would work fine. Not so much if you were to scramble them to escort the Russians away, though.

I wonder if Britain would lease the Hawks for a couple months so we can train pilots, rather than having to actually fork over quite a wad of cash for them. Even just send our pilots over to train with the British, and cover the maintenance costs that would incur. That would negate the need to even buy and store them, keeping the actual costs lower than to buy them ourselves and then contract "teachers" for the first couple pilots.

Leonidas BL

Would leasing gripons and training in Britain be out of the question?

IrishTrajan

They cost a lot more than an F16. They cost like 3 1/2 times as much. To lease them, I don't know. You might still be better off spending the money to actually buy an F-16. The F-16 is about 2000kg heavier, but there's a lot of spares floating around. I think the Gripens would be good, if we intended to use them in Scandinavia as part of the Nordic Battlegroup (which is headed by Sweden, but Ireland is a part of) since they're designed to be flown in those conditions (I can't speak on the F16s reliability in cold, dreary Sweden) but I don't think that would be the intended purpose.

Leasing them would probably still amount to a couple million a year, which would be cheaper initially, but probably work out in the long run, especially seeing as how the Irish are adverse to changing their hardware, so we'd probably end up spending more over a longer period.

I don't know the operating cost of a Gripen, so I can't really compare.

IrishTrajan

Work out as more expensive, I mean.

Every time I try to click the "edit" button, I get redirected to a blank white page.

sparky42

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I can't seem to edit the post for some reason...

The Scorpion is €17 million per unit, and can be armed as well. Not as fast as the Hawk, but they make more sense.

Why does the Scorpion which is still in development make more sense than the Hawk which has been continuously updated and has a production run of over 1000 of units world wide (meaning spares wouldn't be an issue). The RAF modified their T1's to be armed with Sidewinders during the Cold War and they are in storage now for the most part. The Hawk 200, is designed from the start for for light strike if the user wants, and moreover we have with the MOU plenty of corporate experience in operating and using them at our disposal in RAF Valley (useful since we would be building up from no actual experience)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Hawk.

Anything short of a 4 th gen isn't going to be of much use for the high end intercepts however since we don't even have a jet trainer, are we suggesting a pilot move from the PC9's to an F16 straight?

Leonidas BL

Would it not depend on the model we're talking about?? I would've thought they'd be similarly priced or are you talking about refurbished F16's??
But the gripen is able to land on improvised strips so it should have no problem with airports like Sligo and Galway.

sparky42

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Would it not depend on the model we're talking about?? I would've thought they'd be similarly priced or are you talking about refurbished F16's??
But the gripen is able to land on improvised strips so it should have no problem with airports like Sligo and Galway.

Why would we base their? At the most if you got the Air Corps out of Dublin then it would be Shannon that they would be based at. There's no reason to deal with the political mudslinging to move up to those airports.

IrishTrajan

sparky42 wrote: »

Why does the Scorpion which is still in development make more sense than the Hawk which has been continuously updated and has a production run of over 1000 of units world wide (meaning spares wouldn't be an issue). The RAF modified their T1's to be armed with Sidewinders during the Cold War and they are in storage now for the most part. The Hawk 200, is designed from the start for for light strike if the user wants, and moreover we have with the MOU plenty of corporate experience in operating and using them at our disposal in RAF Valley (useful since we would be building up from no actual experience)
<had to remove the link because "new user">

Anything short of a 4 th gen isn't going to be of much use for the high end intercepts however since we don't even have a jet trainer, are we suggesting a pilot move from the PC9's to an F16 straight?

Because of cost effectiveness. If you want a strike fighter, spend the money to buy a strike fighter. We know from experience, multi-role aircraft do not perform as well as devoted aircraft. It's division of labour in a militaristic sense.

If you want a trainer aircraft, buy a trainer aircraft, but don't buy a trainer aircraft to use as a strike aircraft, especially when they cost more than actual fighter aircraft.

I'm not saying we should make the jump from fixed wing to F16 overnight, I'm saying we could ask the British to train our pilots, as part of the MoU, and that those Irish pilots could fly the jets. How many pilots do we have, realistically? I'd guess at less than a hundred, with few recruited. It's significantly cheaper than buying the craft ourselves, and fosters better relations with the British Govt.

You're asking to buy something that is more expensive, but less effective than a strike aircraft.

IrishTrajan

sparky42 wrote: »

Why would we base their? At the most if you got the Air Corps out of Dublin then it would be Shannon that they would be based at. There's no reason to deal with the political mudslinging to move up to those airports.

Casement has a lot of land surrounding it, buying them and constructing storage spaces, as well as renovating the runways would probably be best. It's also close to the N7, so if we need to get spares, we can have them delivered.

IrishTrajan

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Would it not depend on the model we're talking about?? I would've thought they'd be similarly priced or are you talking about refurbished F16's??
But the gripen is able to land on improvised strips so it should have no problem with airports like Sligo and Galway.

I don't know if talking to me or Sparkles. If you're talking to me, the Gripen could probably use Casemont. It has an actual runway, you know, and Ireland isn't exactly the widest country in the world so flying from one side to the other would only take like fifteen minutes. I've not read about the Gripen, aside from basic specifications and cost.

Leonidas BL

sparky42 wrote: »

Why would we base their? At the most if you got the Air Corps out of Dublin then it would be Shannon that they would be based at. There's no reason to deal with the political mudslinging to move up to those airports.

I never said anything about basing them there. But wouldn't they be handy for refueling besides going all the way back to Dublin???

Leonidas BL

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I don't know if talking to me or Sparkles. If you're talking to me, the Gripen could probably use Casemont. It has an actual runway, you know, and Ireland isn't exactly the widest country in the world so flying from one side to the other would only take like fifteen minutes. I've not read about the Gripen, aside from basic specifications and cost.

Again sorry, I'm using this through my phone browser and it's not ideal.

Another good thing about the Scorpion is its multi mission capabilities, like maritime patrol and close air support.

IrishTrajan

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Again sorry, I'm using this through my phone browser and it's not ideal.

Another good thing about the Scorpion is its multi mission capabilities, like maritime patrol and close air support.

I think that UAVs would be a better investment. We have an R&D in UAV in the West, if we start putting money into it, we can develop new drones. Those would provide maritime patrol at a fraction of the cost, and we could potentially export them to other countries. Maintaining them would also be low. The Scorpion would have to notify the Navy if it seen a drug boat, so that, the Navy would try to detain them. A UAV could do that job just as well. (I mean a real UAV, not a camera tied to a balloon)

But then we'd get "UAV-to-air" protestors in Mayo screaming about our imperialism, and probably some nutters claiming that Russia will hack them in the event of glorious Russian pre-emptive retaliatory war against Imperial NATO over the Baltics.

sparky42

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Casement has a lot of land surrounding it, buying them and constructing storage spaces, as well as renovating the runways would probably be best. It's also close to the N7, so if we need to get spares, we can have them delivered.

Problem with Casement is that Dublin wants it for future growth. It's the only way the City can expand now (South the Dublin Mountains, North Dublin Airport) the talks about the next city development plan are currently pushing for the Air Corps to be moved out of Casement.

sparky42

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I think that UAVs would be a better investment. We have an R&D in UAV in the West, if we start putting money into it, we can develop new drones. Those would provide maritime patrol at a fraction of the cost, and we could potentially export them to other countries. Maintaining them would also be low. The Scorpion would have to notify the Navy if it seen a drug boat, so that, the Navy would try to detain them. A UAV could do that job just as well. (I mean a real UAV, not a camera tied to a balloon)

But then we'd get "UAV-to-air" protestors in Mayo screaming about our imperialism, and probably some nutters claiming that Russia will hack them in the event of glorious Russian pre-emptive retaliatory war against Imperial NATO over the Baltics.

A UAV can't do Air Patrol though, even the faster ones are about 400 Knots. Nor could they carry as much rescue aids as the CASA's do.

IrishTrajan

sparky42 wrote: »

Problem with Casement is that Dublin wants it for future growth. It's the only way the City can expand now (South the Dublin Mountains, North Dublin Airport) the talks about the next city development plan are currently pushing for the Air Corps to be moved out of Casement.

If that's the case, we should build a new air field for the Air Corps, with the ability to hold more advanced fighters, so that we have somewhere that would allow us to expand the Air Corps.

If they intend to push the Air Corps out of Casemont, then where do you intend then land, maintain and store the Hawks?

IrishTrajan

sparky42 wrote: »

A UAV can't do Air Patrol though, even the faster ones are about 400 Knots. Nor could they carry as much rescue aids as the CASA's do.

I'm not saying we scrap our entire air complement in favour of UAVs. I'm saying that investing in them would give us greater versatility, a possible export industry, for less than it would cost to buy new aircraft. I'm not saying we shouldn't buy aircraft, I'm saying we should devote money to R&D, and possible construction of domestic UAVs.

The problem would be if we were trying to sell them with armaments (which the larger consumers would probably look for), I don't know of any Irish institution with any experience designing and building precision-guided munitions.

Leonidas BL

sparky42 wrote: »

A UAV can't do Air Patrol though, even the faster ones are about 400 Knots. Nor could they carry as much rescue aids as the CASA's do.

Israel is developing one I think, but after all those idiots out Protesting last year over gaza, I doubt we could go there.

sparky42

IrishTrajan wrote: »

If that's the case, we should build a new air field for the Air Corps, with the ability to hold more advanced fighters, so that we have somewhere that would allow us to expand the Air Corps.

If they intend to push the Air Corps out of Casemont, then where do you intend then land, maintain and store the Hawks?

I'd move the Air Corps out to Shannon, plenty of space out there (both ground and less concentrated population), keep the Government Jet at Dublin Airport for them. I'm not saying it's definitely happening but there's pressure coming from Dublin councils for it.

sparky42

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I'm not saying we scrap our entire air complement in favour of UAVs. I'm saying that investing in them would give us greater versatility, a possible export industry, for less than it would cost to buy new aircraft. I'm not saying we shouldn't buy aircraft, I'm saying we should devote money to R&D, and possible construction of domestic UAVs.

The problem would be if we were trying to sell them with armaments (which the larger consumers would probably look for), I don't know of any Irish institution with any experience designing and building precision-guided munitions.

Problem with that is the entire area of UAV's is getting extremely saturated with US/Euro/Israeli/Asian designs all competing for limited budgets. We'd be going up against some significant market leaders. And we are already planning some UAV/payload development in Cobh over the next few years.

sparky42

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Again sorry, I'm using this through my phone browser and it's not ideal.

Another good thing about the Scorpion is its multi mission capabilities, like maritime patrol and close air support.

You splitting hairs, the Hawk and the Scorpion will be able to perform many of the same missions, one however is still in development, the other is a well established airframe.

As to the question of light fighter/trainer many nations do the same combined operations.

IrishTrajan

sparky42 wrote: »

You splitting hairs, the Hawk and the Scorpion will be able to perform many of the same missions, one however is still in development, the other is a well established airframe.

As to the question of light fighter/trainer many nations do the same combined operations.

One is in development, the other is quite expensive compared to actual strike fighters. I still believe that our pilots could train with the British rather than procuring these jets ourselves, unless we are committing to an actual defence spending overhaul to ensure we can function effectively. I'd also bring up the point that we should devote most of our resources to our navy, not so much our Army or Air Corps.

I do, however, believe that we should devote resources to the air-defences (and place it under the command of the Air Corps), and expanding our port sizes to accommodate for future purchases or expansions.

We have 400,000 unemployed people. If we were to announce an overhaul for the defence forces, and build a new home for the Air Corps, expand Cork Harbour, or build another base further north in Galway, Mayo or Donegal, we could easily build them for significantly less than what they would cost to build in the future.

But I also think it would be a good idea to put a nuclear power station in Donegal, so I'm probably nuts.

IrishTrajan

sparky42 wrote: »

Problem with that is the entire area of UAV's is getting extremely saturated with US/Euro/Israeli/Asian designs all competing for limited budgets. We'd be going up against some significant market leaders. And we are already planning some UAV/payload development in Cobh over the next few years.

It is, however, a growing industry. The sooner we get on the band wagon, the more credible Irish companies would be.

I did not know they were developing UAVs with payloads, I thought it was merely reconnaissance drones.

Negative_G

sparky42 wrote: »

I'm not saying it's definitely happening but there's pressure coming from Dublin councils for it.

Do you have any official reference for this claim?

Casement falls under South Dublin County Councils remit. Under the development plan which is currently valid until 2016, their is absolutely no mention whatsoever of selling Casement to facilitate urban sprawl. The plan does however make reference to being receptive to the possibility of opening Casement to civil operators, however this idea has been floating around for the last 15-20 years.

sparky42

Negative_G wrote: »

Do you have any official reference for this claim?

Casement falls under South Dublin County Councils remit. Under the development plan which is currently valid until 2016, their is absolutely no mention whatsoever of selling Casement to facilitate urban sprawl. The plan does however make reference to being receptive to the possibility of opening Casement to civil operators, however this idea has been floating around for the last 15-20 years.

It's being talked about for the plan that will replace that one (and I stress talked about), I got that from someone who knows some of the remaining Dublin based developers/consultants who have been involved in the talks. If you look at the surrounds of Dublin on Google Maps it's clear that the West is the only way to further grow the city if we remain wedded to the Urban sprawl model that Dublin has followed. It may not ever happen but it's something to consider.

Negative_G

sparky42 wrote: »

It's being talked about for the plan that will replace that one (and I stress talked about), I got that from someone who knows some of the remaining Dublin based developers/consultants who have been involved in the talks. If you look at the surrounds of Dublin on Google Maps it's clear that the West is the only way to further grow the city if we remain wedded to the Urban sprawl model that Dublin has followed. It may not ever happen but it's something to consider.

Can't see it happening. If it didn't happen, and I never saw it strongly proposed, in political circles during the boom, then it won't be sold now.

Buying an 800 acre site to build another housing jungle doesn't make sense. Dublin is a prime example of poor planning management. Urban sprawl is negated by building up, not out. Anyway, different discussion for another day.

I would love nothing more than to see the all services of the DF receive proper thorough investment with a particular emphasis on the Air Corps and Naval Service given our strategic position and our EEZ.

The reality is however the Defence budget is approx €670 million, with 70% going toward pay and pensions and the remainder going toward every other expense involved in running what limited capability we currently possess. Doesn't leave much room for acquiring big ticket items such as fast jets, particularly when the three new naval vessels have to be paid for.

Short of a seismic shift of opinion in the upcoming white paper or joining NATO there will be no fast jets of any kind on the Air Corps inventory.

The Gov is largely reaction driven. It will only be when there is a serious incident/accident that the opposition benches will start hopping. Until then it will be the status quo, sure it will be grand attitude that has has always prevailed.

IrishTrajan

I'll form a political party sometime in early 2020s, I think, with Defence overhaul being one of our platforms. Not the only one, mind you, a minor but important platform nonetheless. I intend to be centralist, pragmatic and energetic. I think the only thing standing in my way would be my age, but I'm sure that will appeal to the disillusioned youth who don't vote.