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Would you welcome atheists into your church

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24

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    #32
    rohatch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 233 ✭✭rohatch


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    It's just a tad ambitious to think RTE or TV3 will want to involve themselves in this:D

    I just want more programmes about atheism on national TV. We must be pushing 20% + atheist agnostic in Ireland now. Stick it on TV and let prime time do a proper show with RD, CH and Grayson.


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    #33
    rohatch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 233 ✭✭rohatch


    Malty_T wrote: »
    I'd imagine it is because mass is a time for believers to reflect and share their love and devotion for God. Last thing they'd want is a militant atheist tempting them towards satan.

    Whats your problem.


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    #34
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    rohatch wrote: »
    [Expresses Disdain at use of the word "militant"].
    rohatch wrote: »
    I just want more programmes about atheism on national TV. We must be pushing 20% + atheist agnostic in Ireland now. Stick it on TV and let prime time do a proper show with RD, CH and Grayson.
    ^^
    That to me, is militant activism.


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    #35
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Antoennis wrote: »
    As regards the caps thing-didn't really put that much thought in to it! If it Satan/satan that tempts people away from God/god what happens if you don't believe in Satan/satan either?

    Whether you believe or don't believe it makes no difference because either the story about Satan/God is true or it isn't. If the story's false then Christians have been wrong in the assumption that people are tempted away from faith and there is in fact no such thing as faith. If Christians are right, then atheists (and all other religions) are quite possibly screwed!:)


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    #36
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    I find that unfathomable. Why on earth not? Surely it would encourage objective thinking.

    It would only serve to inflict your opinions on those who have no wish to listen to them.

    If an atheist thinks that they have something worth saying then they are free to do what I did. Rent a ballroom in a hotel, rent a sound system etc, and invite along anyone who cares to listen. But I don't see why they think I should supply them with a platform and trick an audience (who really came to hear a Christian speaking about the Bible) into listening to them.


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    #37
    rohatch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 233 ✭✭rohatch


    Malty_T wrote: »
    ^^
    That to me, is militant activism.

    My arse. We are getting louder. Did you watch the debate on fundamentism? what were your views.

    Describe what you think of these people

    Richard dawkins

    Hitchens

    Grayling


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    #38
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,976 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    PDN wrote: »
    It would only serve to inflict your opinions on those who have no wish to listen to them.
    Avoiding or refusing to listen to the views of others is surely unhealthy.
    If an atheist thinks that they have something worth saying then they are free to do what I did. Rent a ballroom in a hotel, rent a sound system etc, and invite along anyone who cares to listen. But I don't see why they think I should supply them with a platform and trick an audience (who really came to hear a Christian speaking about the Bible) into listening to them.
    Because it might be intellectually healthy for the people sitting in the audience.

    Would you invite any other life stances to speak? Catholics, Buddhists, Muslims etc?


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    #39
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    rohatch wrote: »
    My arse. We are getting louder. Did you watch the debate on fundamentism? what were your views.



    Grayling

    Well we're straying completely off topic now, but I began that thread.;)

    Richard dawkins
    Awesome scientist! Ken Miller described him as the best biology writer currently alive today and I have to agree. Excellent writer, his books are well worth the read. While, I applaud his promotion of atheism, (heck it wasn't until I heard the discussion of the book on the Late Late Show that realised what I was) I didn't really like TGD. It was an enjoyable read but the points made were ....I dunno..."meh". His science books grab far more of my interest and time.
    Hitchens
    Pretty good at debating, haven't written any of his written stuff yet.
    Probably not going to bother either.
    Grayling
    Love this guy, only heard him on rare occasions but he's good with witty remarks.


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    #40
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Avoiding or refusing to listen to the views of others is surely unhealthy.
    Most people are well aware of the views of atheists. If, however, people want to hear the views of atheists then there are plenty of sources they can find them.
    Would you invite any other life stances to speak? Catholics, Buddhists, Muslims etc?
    No. If people want to hear a Muslim preach then they go to a mosque. If people want to hear a Catholic preach then they go to a Catholic Church.


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    #41
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    In fairness I agree with the points of not allowing an atheist to speak at mass on a Sunday morning.

    If I go to see Metallica I'd be pretty annoyed if JLS showed up.


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    #42
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,976 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    PDN wrote: »
    Most people are well aware of the views of atheists. If, however, people want to hear the views of atheists then there are plenty of sources they can find them.
    You're completly missing the point. Yes Christians can challenge themselves if they want to.

    However, the Church which they belong to can also encourage them to challenge their thinking by doing what I am suggesting.
    No. If people want to hear a Muslim preach then they go to a mosque. If people want to hear a Catholic preach then they go to a Catholic Church.
    The problem with that for most people it's just too daunting. I know some schools arrange visits to other faiths places of worship but it's not something people on their own would find easy to do.

    I think dialogue / debate / friendship would be a very healthy thing for a church to encourage considering the world we live in.


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    #43
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    You're completly missing the point. Yes Christians can challenge themselves if they want to.

    However, the Church which they belong to can also encourage them to challenge their thinking by doing what I am suggesting.

    But why should I encourage people to listen to someone spouting stuff I believe to be totally false. Should I also invite speakers who are Creationists, Flat-Earthers or white supremacists?
    I think dialogue / debate / friendship would be a very healthy thing for a church to encourage considering the world we live in.
    I agree. And we encourage our church members to enter into such diallogue every day of their lives. But that is very different from providing a platform and audience for someone on false pretences.


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    #44
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,976 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    PDN wrote: »
    But why should I encourage people to listen to someone spouting stuff I believe to be totally false.
    Firstly because you are claiming that they would be very welcome to your Church. Someone is really only welcome if their views are allowed equal opportunity to be aired. There's no point being all jolly inviting them for lunch when their views are not treated equally.

    Secondly, because you don't know everything. There are plenty of atheists who are far more intelligent, educated than you and your congregation. Just like there are Christians / Theists / believers who are more intelligent, educated than me. By listening to a reasonable, intelligent alternative argument to your own it challenges you to think more about your own opinion.
    Should I also invite speakers who are Creationists, Flat-Earthers or white supremacists?
    I think we would both agree we are both more intelligent, educated than any of these people.
    I agree. And we encourage our church members to enter into such diallogue every day of their lives. But that is very different from providing a platform and audience for someone on false pretences.
    What's the difference? Why are the pretences false?


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    #45
    rohatch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 233 ✭✭rohatch


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Well we're straying completely off topic now, but I began that thread.;)



    Awesome scientist! Ken Miller described him as the best biology writer currently alive today and I have to agree. Excellent writer, his books are well worth the read. While, I applaud his promotion of atheism, (heck it wasn't until I heard the discussion of the book on the Late Late Show that realised what I was) I didn't really like TGD. It was an enjoyable read but the points made were ....I dunno..."meh". His science books grab far more of my interest and time.


    Pretty good at debating, haven't written any of his written stuff yet.
    Probably not going to bother either.


    Love this guy, only heard him on rare occasions but he's good with witty remarks.

    I want to know if you think they are militant or fundamentalists


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    #46
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Firstly because you are claiming that they would be very welcome to your Church. Someone is really only welcome if they are allowed air their views are treated equally. There's not point being all jolly inviting them for lunch when their views are not treated equally.
    Absolute nonsense. Everybody is welcome to come to church for the same reason that everyone else comes to church - to worship God and to learn more about their faith and the Bible. The church is under no obligation to provide a platform to anyone and everyone. Nor should all views be treated equally. I find it extremely arrogant that those who are diametrically opposed to Christianity should expect the Church to provide them with a platform to air their views.
    Secondly, because you don't know everything. There are plenty of atheist who are far more intelligent, educated than you and your congregation.
    And they have the same freedom as me to invite others to listen to their views. If people choose not do bother listening to them then that too is their right.
    I think we would both agree we are both more intelligent, educated than any of these people.
    It's not about intelligence or education. Some of the most intelligent and educated people also hold bigoted and objectionable views.
    What's the difference? Why are the pretences false?
    The pretences would be false because the congregation does not attend church in order to listen to an atheist air his opinions. They attend in order to worship God and to learn about the Bible and their faith.


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    #47
    rohatch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 233 ✭✭rohatch


    PDN wrote: »
    But why should I encourage people to listen to someone spouting stuff I believe to be totally false.

    You believe the catholic church to be completely false


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    #48
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    rohatch wrote: »
    I want to know if you think they are militant or fundamentalists

    Militant : yes.
    Fundamentalist : no.


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    #49
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    rohatch wrote: »
    You believe the catholic church to be completely false

    I believe some of their doctrines to be totally false, yes. And any Catholic priest who is faithful to his church will view some of my doctrines to be false.

    I would never expect the Catholic Church to provide me with a platform to proclaim views that are contrary to their beliefs.


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    #50
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,976 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    PDN wrote: »
    Absolute nonsense. Everybody is welcome to come to church for the same reason that everyone else comes to church - to worship God and to learn more about their faith and the Bible. The church is under no obligation to provide a platform to anyone and everyone. Nor should all views be treated equally.
    So it's "welcome" but only under your rules. That's not really "welcome".
    I find it extremely arrogant that those who are diametrically opposed to Christianity should expect the Church to provide them with a platform to air their views.
    There's no "expectation" here. As I clearly stated there are two points:
    1. Being consistent with the definition of the word "welcome".
    2. Intellectually challenging yoru congregation.
    It's not about intelligence or education. Some of the most intelligent and educated people also hold bigoted and objectionable views.
    Well it is about intelligence and education if you want to challenge yourself intellectually. As for bigoted, you could argue a church is bigotted by not allowing someone to speak an opinion that contradicts its own.
    The pretences would be false because the congregation does not attend church in order to listen to an atheist air his opinions. They attend in order to worship God and to learn about the Bible and their faith.
    But why does an atheist speaking stop someone worshipping God?


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    #51
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,976 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    PDN wrote: »
    I would never expect the Catholic Church to provide me with a platform to proclaim views that are contrary to their beliefs.
    And I would argue it would be a very healthy thing for the Catholic Church to have you speak in it.

    For them and for you.

    But I wouldn't "expect" it.


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    #52
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Firstly because you are claiming that they would be very welcome to your Church. Someone is really only welcome if their views are allowed equal opportunity to be aired. There's no point being all jolly inviting them for lunch when their views are not treated equally.

    Secondly, because you don't know everything. There are plenty of atheists who are far more intelligent, educated than you and your congregation. Just like there are Christians / Theists / believers who are more intelligent, educated than me. By listening to a reasonable, intelligent alternative argument to your own it challenges you to think more about your own opinion.

    What are you prating about? You're welcome to go listen to a physics lecture and discuss it afterwards, but don't expect to usurp the time/attendees to go off on a ramble about music.


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    #53
    lmaopml
    Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    rohatch wrote: »
    To preachers, clergy, of any religious group.

    Would you welcome a group of atheists to one of your sermons, and be prepared to have a discussion afterwards over tea and coffee and biscuits.

    We could have a decent discussion.

    LOL, this is a funny thread!

    Why do you want to have your 'debate' in a Church? People are not in an 'audience' in a Church, they are a 'congregation' or gathering of people with a common purpose....

    Why not just make it easier and book a hall - and then invite people and press if you wanted?? *Scratches head*:confused:


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    #54
    TPD
    Registered Users Posts: 7,814 ✭✭✭TPD


    I'm an atheist myself, but I think you're going about this the wrong way Tim Robbins. The people who go to church do so because they want to hear a priest talking about God. They actively decide what they want to hear, and they go to a location to do that.

    If I wanted to give a talk in church about robotics I hardly think it would be acceptable.

    Also (here comes my negative atheist side): Why would the church want people coming in and getting their congregation to question their beliefs? Anyone stops believing = less money in the Church's coffers.


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    #55
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,976 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    bluewolf wrote: »
    What are you prating about? You're welcome to go listen to a physics lecture and discuss it afterwards, but don't expect to usurp the time/attendees to go off on a ramble about music.

    A better analogy (if you wish to use that cringe inducing way of arguing) would be if a physics group only let members of its own group speak at its conferences and never let any member outside that group with an alternative view speak.


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    #56
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    A better analogy (if you wish to use that cringe inducing way of arguing) would be if a physics group only let members of its own group speak at its conferences and never let any member outside that group with an alternative view speak.

    Well it's a physics group, not a "let's have a chat" group...
    If you're so determined to "have your say", then have your own conference and speak at it.


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    #57
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,976 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Well it's a physics group, not a "let's have a chat" group...
    If you're so determined to "have your say", then have your own conference and speak at it.
    Oh get out of it.

    It's not about me being determined to have my say, it's about determining
    when is it a good idea / not a good idea for groups to encourage views / debate / discourse with those who hold alternate views.

    Why is no problem for a preacher to have a cup of tea with an atheist after service but a big problem for the atheist to air the same views in the church?

    Surely that's an inconsistency.

    So far not one person have given a good reason for the delineation. Including you who for some reason I am guessing is overweight.


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    #58
    lmaopml
    Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Oh get out of it.

    It's not about me being determined to have my say, it's about determining
    when is it a good idea / not a good idea for groups to encourage views / debate / discourse with those who hold alternate views.

    Why is no problem for a preacher to have a cup of tea with an atheist after service but a big problem for the atheist to air the same views in the church?

    Surely that's an inconsistency.

    So far not one person have given a good reason for the delineation. Including you who for some reason I am guessing is overweight.
    :eek: Shocking!!! :pac:

    Anyway, probably because if you got up in a place they consider 'holy' ( and I know you don't it could be Tesco as far as your concerned ) they would just 'walk out'? Maybe? and that would be kinda pointless....

    Save the trouble, and rent a hall.


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    #59
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Oh get out of it.

    It's not about me being determined to have my say, it's about determining
    when is it a good idea / not a good idea for groups to encourage views / debate / discourse with those who hold alternate views.

    Why is no problem for a preacher to have a cup of tea with an atheist after service but a big problem for the atheist to air the same views in the church?

    Surely that's an inconsistency.

    So far not one person have given a good reason for the delineation. Including you who for some reason I am guessing is overweight.

    The is no problem with an atheist discussing atheism outside of mass times while inside a church to a general audience.
    There is no problem with an atheist discussing religion with a pastor/priest after mass.
    There is however a big problem with an atheist expressing his lack of religious beliefs during a time usually dedicated for reflectance and renewal of faith.


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    #60
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,976 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Malty_T wrote: »
    The is no problem with an atheist discussing atheism outside of mass times while inside a church to a general audience.
    There is no problem with an atheist discussing religion with a pastor/priest after mass.
    There is however a big problem with an atheist expressing his lack of religious beliefs during a time usually dedicated for reflectance and renewal of faith.
    An atheist step up gives a ten minute talk during the sermon. What's the big deal?
    Now please don't just tell me it's a big deal, explain to me what's it's a big deal.


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    #61
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Oh get out of it.

    It's not about me being determined to have my say, it's about determining
    when is it a good idea / not a good idea for groups to encourage views / debate / discourse with those who hold alternate views.

    Why is no problem for a preacher to have a cup of tea with an atheist after service but a big problem for the atheist to air the same views in the church?
    Because it's a service. It's there to give and administer a service, not open mic night.
    Nobody in the congregation who is a christian gets up and starts waffling or ranting about their views (afaik??), and you don't either.
    Surely that's an inconsistency.
    No it's a matter of purpose and timing and what's appropriate.
    So far not one person have given a good reason for the delineation. Including you who for some reason I am guessing is overweight.
    :rolleyes:


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