Would you welcome atheists into your church

rohatch

To preachers, clergy, of any religious group.

Would you welcome a group of atheists to one of your sermons, and be prepared to have a discussion afterwards over tea and coffee and biscuits.

We could have a decent discussion.

Puck

I have preached a few times at a regular Saturday service that is set up very much like this. After the sermon there is tea, coffee and bickies and then I sat in the hot-seat and people asked me questions. I've never asked anyone their background and there were no obviously atheist questions so I can't say for certain that atheists attended, but I know that many people there including myself would think it a pity if no atheists or non-Christians ever attended since it was set up to be a special apologetic/outreach service.

antiskeptic

rohatch wrote: »

To preachers, clergy, of any religious group.

Would you welcome a group of atheists to one of your sermons, and be prepared to have a discussion afterwards over tea and coffee and biscuits.

We could have a decent discussion.

I'm sure folk would jump at the chance - and I'm sure the sermon would be specifically tailored to the visitors (:)) .

Unless well planned, I'd imagine the discussion a disaster however: it'd be like throwing Nationalist & Unionists into a room together (pre-Good Friday) and letting them at it.

Dades

Remember, atheists like babies, not biscuits to dip into their hot tea.

Turtwig

antiskeptic wrote: »

I'm sure folk would jump at the chance - and I'm sure the sermon would be specifically tailored to the visitors (:)) .

Unless well planned, I'd imagine the discussion a disaster however: it'd be like throwing Nationalist & Unionists into a room together (pre-Good Friday) and letting them at it.

Really?

I find (and I think the theists would agree) the conversations are alot of craic.

Puck

Dades wrote: »

Remember, atheists like babies, not biscuits to dip into their hot tea.

I'm afraid we'd have to draw the line there and ask that you respect our non-baby-eating beliefs. However I assure you that in most of the churches I've been to the taste in bickies is top-notch and you would be well looked after.

Fanny Cradock

Malty_T wrote: »

Really?

I find (and I think the theists would agree) the conversations are alot of craic.

I couldn`t imagine any member of the church leadership having a problem with someone wanting to have a discussion (as opposed to an argument) with them after the service. Evangelizing comes in many forms!

PDN

Absolutely! If you're prepared to come to the North East of this fair land then send me a PM. However, I would insist that our post-match discussion takes place over a decent lunch rather than measly tea and biscuits.

rohatch

Thanks for the responses, any other atheists fancy an afternoon out. I would be interested if RTE or TV3 would be interested in covering this. We definitely need more TV coverage from our point of view.

Fanny Cradock

Well, if you are out to promote atheism, then I suggest that the A&A forum would be the place to incubate and refine your evil plans.

condra

I like the TV idea, presuming it is balanced for both sides.

Puck

You're wanting the TV stations involved? Is it really that big a deal? You do realise anyone is welcome to go to church? Christians, in evangelical churches especially, don't mind talking about their beliefs at all.

Tim Robbins

Would you allow an atheist be a guest speaker in your Church?

Fanny Cradock

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Would you allow an atheist be a guest speaker in your Church?

Depends what the subject is. I don't think an Sunday morning atheism sermon would be suitable. But I don't see a problem with a speaker who just so happened to be atheist giving a chat about some social justice issue, for example.

PDN

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Would you allow an atheist be a guest speaker in your Church?

No. People come to church for a specific purpose, and listening to an atheist voicing their opinions isn't generally one of them.

Fanny Cradock

PDN wrote: »

No. People come to church for a specific purpose, and listening to an atheist voicing their opinions isn't generally one of them.

What if atheism wasn't on the agenda?

getz

is not that what christs teaching is about ? to bring non believers into christianity,or is it closed shop ,

PDN

getz wrote: »

is not that what christs teaching is about ? to bring non believers into christianity,or is it closed shop ,

I don't think anyone has suggested a closed shop.

Turtwig

getz wrote: »

is not that what christs teaching is about ? to bring non believers into christianity,or is it closed shop ,

I'd imagine though the shop would be closed to folks who come with a closed mind or worse still a disrespectful one.
Open to everyone else though.

rohatch

PDN wrote: »

I don't think anyone has suggested a closed shop.

Would you be afraid that we would de-convert some of your flock?

getz

Malty_T wrote: »

I'd imagine though the shop would be closed to folks who come with a closed mind or worse still a disrespectful one.
Open to everyone else though.

do you honestly believe that the apostles and early christian teachers met with friendly faces ?[i love you really, i am only feeding you to the lions because they are hungry] if your faith is strong ,why worry ?

MagicMarker

It's just a tad ambitious to think RTE or TV3 will want to involve themselves in this:D

Tim Robbins

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Depends what the subject is. I don't think an Sunday morning atheism sermon would be suitable.

I find that unfathomable. Why on earth not? Surely it would encourage objective thinking.

Turtwig

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I find that unfathomable. Why on earth not? Surely it would encourage objective thinking.

I'd imagine it is because mass is a time for believers to reflect and share their love and devotion for God. Last thing they'd want is a militant atheist tempting them towards satan.

Tim Robbins

Malty_T wrote: »

I'd imagine it is because mass is a time for believers to reflect and share their love and devotion for God. Last thing they'd want is a militant atheist tempting them towards satan.

Who said Militant atheist? Who said Stalin?

All I am saying is a section of the service to facilitate thinking about their faith in a different more challenging way. A way that isn't afraid of counter arguments and opinions. If the faith is genuine - what's the problem?

And how could anyone who would not allow such a simple thing sincerely say they respect an atheist and tell them they are welcome and ask them for coffee?

Fanny Cradock

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I find that unfathomable. Why on earth not? Surely it would encourage objective thinking.

Unfathomable! Well there you go. As Malty said, people go to largely church for a specific reason - to praise God. This activity just so happens to be entirely incomparable with a man telling you there is no God. What is unfathomable about that? As for objective thinking, I would imagine that people are free to look at other perspectives if they choose. People can purchase The God Delusion or log on to the the A&A forum all they want.

Antoennis

Malty_T wrote: »

I'd imagine it is because mass is a time for believers to reflect and share their love and devotion for God. Last thing they'd want is a militant atheist tempting them towards satan.

While i think you are right Malty_T that mass would not be a suitable time for a discussion like this it is wrong of you to think that Atheist's are satan worshippers.

Turtwig

Antoennis wrote: »

While i think you are right Malty_T that mass would not be a suitable time for a discussion like this it is wrong of you to think that Atheist's are satan worshippers.

I never said we were.

Perhaps one of the kind Christian folk could clarify, but, I think,(stress "think") that it is Satan that tempts us away from God's glory. So, any self-confessed atheist has been tempted away from faith (or denied it) by satan : we might not intentionally worship Satan, but we have given into His* temptations.

*Em do you address satan with caps, like you do God. Is it "Satan" and "He", or is it "satan" and "he"?

Tim Robbins

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Unfathomable! Well there you go. As Malty said, people go to largely church for a specific reason - to praise God. This activity just so happens to be entirely incomparable with a man telling you there is no God. What is unfathomable about that? As for objective thinking, I would imagine that people are free to look at other perspectives if they choose. People can purchase The God Delusion or log on to the the A&A forum all they want.

Surely you could see some benefits to it? For example, it would refute the claim that all church is, is belief massaging? It would also refute the risk (as shown by clinical pyschology, see: Stuart Sutherlan 'Irrationality') that when a group of people who share the same opinion on something colate and without any alternative opinion, their opinions become more extreme and irrational?

Or for those that belief in Satan they could see Satan in action?

rohatch

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Unfathomable! Well there you go. As Malty said, people go to largely church for a specific reason - to praise God. This activity just so happens to be entirely incomparable with a man telling you there is no God. What is unfathomable about that?

I could not stand in front of parishoners and say there is no God or creator. What I can say is that if there was a creator or god if would not be the same god that man wrote about when they wrote the bible. If there was a creator he last checked in on us 13.7 billion years ago.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

As for objective thinking, I would imagine that people are free to look at other perspectives if they choose. People can purchase The God Delusion or log on to the the A&A forum all they want.

My parents will not read the GD because they are afraid of offending god.

Antoennis

Malty_T wrote: »

I never said we were.

Perhaps a Christian could clarify, but, I think,(stress "think") that it is Satan that tempts us away from God's glory. So, any self-confessed atheist has been tempted away from faith (or denied it) by satan : we might not intentionally worship Satan, but we have given into His* temptations.

*Em do you address satan with caps, like you do God. Is it "Satan" and "He", or is it "satan" and "he"?

As regards the caps thing-didn't really put that much thought in to it! If it Satan/satan that tempts people away from God/god what happens if you don't believe in Satan/satan either?

rohatch

MagicMarker wrote: »

It's just a tad ambitious to think RTE or TV3 will want to involve themselves in this:D

I just want more programmes about atheism on national TV. We must be pushing 20% + atheist agnostic in Ireland now. Stick it on TV and let prime time do a proper show with RD, CH and Grayson.

rohatch

Malty_T wrote: »

I'd imagine it is because mass is a time for believers to reflect and share their love and devotion for God. Last thing they'd want is a militant atheist tempting them towards satan.

Whats your problem.

Turtwig

rohatch wrote: »

[Expresses Disdain at use of the word "militant"].

rohatch wrote: »

I just want more programmes about atheism on national TV. We must be pushing 20% + atheist agnostic in Ireland now. Stick it on TV and let prime time do a proper show with RD, CH and Grayson.

^^
That to me, is militant activism.

Turtwig

Antoennis wrote: »

As regards the caps thing-didn't really put that much thought in to it! If it Satan/satan that tempts people away from God/god what happens if you don't believe in Satan/satan either?

Whether you believe or don't believe it makes no difference because either the story about Satan/God is true or it isn't. If the story's false then Christians have been wrong in the assumption that people are tempted away from faith and there is in fact no such thing as faith. If Christians are right, then atheists (and all other religions) are quite possibly screwed!:)

PDN

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I find that unfathomable. Why on earth not? Surely it would encourage objective thinking.

It would only serve to inflict your opinions on those who have no wish to listen to them.

If an atheist thinks that they have something worth saying then they are free to do what I did. Rent a ballroom in a hotel, rent a sound system etc, and invite along anyone who cares to listen. But I don't see why they think I should supply them with a platform and trick an audience (who really came to hear a Christian speaking about the Bible) into listening to them.

rohatch

Malty_T wrote: »

^^
That to me, is militant activism.

My arse. We are getting louder. Did you watch the debate on fundamentism? what were your views.

Describe what you think of these people

Richard dawkins

Hitchens

Grayling

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote: »

It would only serve to inflict your opinions on those who have no wish to listen to them.

Avoiding or refusing to listen to the views of others is surely unhealthy.

If an atheist thinks that they have something worth saying then they are free to do what I did. Rent a ballroom in a hotel, rent a sound system etc, and invite along anyone who cares to listen. But I don't see why they think I should supply them with a platform and trick an audience (who really came to hear a Christian speaking about the Bible) into listening to them.

Because it might be intellectually healthy for the people sitting in the audience.

Would you invite any other life stances to speak? Catholics, Buddhists, Muslims etc?

Turtwig

rohatch wrote: »

My arse. We are getting louder. Did you watch the debate on fundamentism? what were your views.



Grayling

Well we're straying completely off topic now, but I began that thread.;)

Richard dawkins

Awesome scientist! Ken Miller described him as the best biology writer currently alive today and I have to agree. Excellent writer, his books are well worth the read. While, I applaud his promotion of atheism, (heck it wasn't until I heard the discussion of the book on the Late Late Show that realised what I was) I didn't really like TGD. It was an enjoyable read but the points made were ....I dunno..."meh". His science books grab far more of my interest and time.

Hitchens

Pretty good at debating, haven't written any of his written stuff yet.
Probably not going to bother either.

Grayling

Love this guy, only heard him on rare occasions but he's good with witty remarks.

PDN

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Avoiding or refusing to listen to the views of others is surely unhealthy.

Most people are well aware of the views of atheists. If, however, people want to hear the views of atheists then there are plenty of sources they can find them.

Would you invite any other life stances to speak? Catholics, Buddhists, Muslims etc?

No. If people want to hear a Muslim preach then they go to a mosque. If people want to hear a Catholic preach then they go to a Catholic Church.

MagicMarker

In fairness I agree with the points of not allowing an atheist to speak at mass on a Sunday morning.

If I go to see Metallica I'd be pretty annoyed if JLS showed up.

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote: »

Most people are well aware of the views of atheists. If, however, people want to hear the views of atheists then there are plenty of sources they can find them.

You're completly missing the point. Yes Christians can challenge themselves if they want to.

However, the Church which they belong to can also encourage them to challenge their thinking by doing what I am suggesting.

No. If people want to hear a Muslim preach then they go to a mosque. If people want to hear a Catholic preach then they go to a Catholic Church.

The problem with that for most people it's just too daunting. I know some schools arrange visits to other faiths places of worship but it's not something people on their own would find easy to do.

I think dialogue / debate / friendship would be a very healthy thing for a church to encourage considering the world we live in.

PDN

Tim Robbins wrote: »

You're completly missing the point. Yes Christians can challenge themselves if they want to.

However, the Church which they belong to can also encourage them to challenge their thinking by doing what I am suggesting.

But why should I encourage people to listen to someone spouting stuff I believe to be totally false. Should I also invite speakers who are Creationists, Flat-Earthers or white supremacists?

I think dialogue / debate / friendship would be a very healthy thing for a church to encourage considering the world we live in.

I agree. And we encourage our church members to enter into such diallogue every day of their lives. But that is very different from providing a platform and audience for someone on false pretences.

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote: »

But why should I encourage people to listen to someone spouting stuff I believe to be totally false.

Firstly because you are claiming that they would be very welcome to your Church. Someone is really only welcome if their views are allowed equal opportunity to be aired. There's no point being all jolly inviting them for lunch when their views are not treated equally.

Secondly, because you don't know everything. There are plenty of atheists who are far more intelligent, educated than you and your congregation. Just like there are Christians / Theists / believers who are more intelligent, educated than me. By listening to a reasonable, intelligent alternative argument to your own it challenges you to think more about your own opinion.

Should I also invite speakers who are Creationists, Flat-Earthers or white supremacists?

I think we would both agree we are both more intelligent, educated than any of these people.

I agree. And we encourage our church members to enter into such diallogue every day of their lives. But that is very different from providing a platform and audience for someone on false pretences.

What's the difference? Why are the pretences false?

rohatch

Malty_T wrote: »

Well we're straying completely off topic now, but I began that thread.;)



Awesome scientist! Ken Miller described him as the best biology writer currently alive today and I have to agree. Excellent writer, his books are well worth the read. While, I applaud his promotion of atheism, (heck it wasn't until I heard the discussion of the book on the Late Late Show that realised what I was) I didn't really like TGD. It was an enjoyable read but the points made were ....I dunno..."meh". His science books grab far more of my interest and time.


Pretty good at debating, haven't written any of his written stuff yet.
Probably not going to bother either.


Love this guy, only heard him on rare occasions but he's good with witty remarks.

I want to know if you think they are militant or fundamentalists

PDN

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Firstly because you are claiming that they would be very welcome to your Church. Someone is really only welcome if they are allowed air their views are treated equally. There's not point being all jolly inviting them for lunch when their views are not treated equally.

Absolute nonsense. Everybody is welcome to come to church for the same reason that everyone else comes to church - to worship God and to learn more about their faith and the Bible. The church is under no obligation to provide a platform to anyone and everyone. Nor should all views be treated equally. I find it extremely arrogant that those who are diametrically opposed to Christianity should expect the Church to provide them with a platform to air their views.

Secondly, because you don't know everything. There are plenty of atheist who are far more intelligent, educated than you and your congregation.

And they have the same freedom as me to invite others to listen to their views. If people choose not do bother listening to them then that too is their right.

I think we would both agree we are both more intelligent, educated than any of these people.

It's not about intelligence or education. Some of the most intelligent and educated people also hold bigoted and objectionable views.

What's the difference? Why are the pretences false?

The pretences would be false because the congregation does not attend church in order to listen to an atheist air his opinions. They attend in order to worship God and to learn about the Bible and their faith.

rohatch

PDN wrote: »

But why should I encourage people to listen to someone spouting stuff I believe to be totally false.

You believe the catholic church to be completely false

Turtwig

rohatch wrote: »

I want to know if you think they are militant or fundamentalists

Militant : yes.
Fundamentalist : no.

PDN

rohatch wrote: »

You believe the catholic church to be completely false

I believe some of their doctrines to be totally false, yes. And any Catholic priest who is faithful to his church will view some of my doctrines to be false.

I would never expect the Catholic Church to provide me with a platform to proclaim views that are contrary to their beliefs.

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote: »

Absolute nonsense. Everybody is welcome to come to church for the same reason that everyone else comes to church - to worship God and to learn more about their faith and the Bible. The church is under no obligation to provide a platform to anyone and everyone. Nor should all views be treated equally.

So it's "welcome" but only under your rules. That's not really "welcome".

I find it extremely arrogant that those who are diametrically opposed to Christianity should expect the Church to provide them with a platform to air their views.

There's no "expectation" here. As I clearly stated there are two points:
1. Being consistent with the definition of the word "welcome".
2. Intellectually challenging yoru congregation.

It's not about intelligence or education. Some of the most intelligent and educated people also hold bigoted and objectionable views.

Well it is about intelligence and education if you want to challenge yourself intellectually. As for bigoted, you could argue a church is bigotted by not allowing someone to speak an opinion that contradicts its own.

The pretences would be false because the congregation does not attend church in order to listen to an atheist air his opinions. They attend in order to worship God and to learn about the Bible and their faith.

But why does an atheist speaking stop someone worshipping God?

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote: »

I would never expect the Catholic Church to provide me with a platform to proclaim views that are contrary to their beliefs.

And I would argue it would be a very healthy thing for the Catholic Church to have you speak in it.

For them and for you.

But I wouldn't "expect" it.