Learner permit holders flouting the law.

cloneslad

I'm guilty of driving with a learners license without a full licensed driver beside me.

I have been studying for my degree, living and working in asia then back in studying for my masters degree ever since I was the legal age to drive and I could not even afford a car anyway.

I am now 25 and have my own car which is fully taxed, insured and NCT'd until september 2011 and I drive very carefully, never go over the speed limit, keep my lights on during the day and have never driven on the motorway and don't even drink, let alone drink and drive. when possible I get lifts with friends rather than drive myself or else get a full licensed driver next to me.

I would take my test tomorrow if I could but I'm waiting on a date for my full test to be given to me. I had to wait 6 months before I could do it (the 6 months are up next week) I really hope to get it sorted out asap because I would like to be driving 100% legally.

I know it's still illegal and I can't think that I should be an exception to the rule, but there are a lot of full licensed drivers out there who drive like maniacs pushing up insurance premiums more than people like me.

ballsymchugh

Photi wrote: »

You can pass your test and have a full licence without ever going near ice.

true. and manage to drive for 7 years without coming near it either.

Midnight_EG

daveharnett wrote: »

It's an understandable point of view, midnight. Hopefully in ten years time, young people will think the same way about driving solo without a full license.

I just saw this part, don't know how I overlooked it. But, honestly, this won't happen unless we can find a way that makes public transport that bit more viable and easier to use, or else find a way to teleport people.

meoklmrk91

daveharnett wrote: »

It's an understandable point of view, midnight. That said, it sounds remarkably like an older generation's complaints about drink driving legislation. "How do I get home from the pub 15 miles away with no public transport. I take it handy, I'm not causing anyone harm, I'm going about my business in such a manner that is safe and of no direct harm to you."

Not being able to drink and drive doesn't seem like such an imposition to (most :mad:) people of our age, because we just don't see the alternative as an option. Hopefully in ten years time, young people will think the same way about driving solo without a full license.

As someone who HAS to use a car to get to school and back as well, I don't think it sounds anything like the older generations complaints about drink driving. When I drive to school I am exercising my fundamental right to get an education, people who drink and drive are exercising their choice to go out and socialize in a pub.

daveharnett

Midnight_EG wrote: »

I just saw this part, don't know how I overlooked it. But, honestly, this won't happen unless we can find a way that makes public transport that bit more viable and easier to use, or else find a way to teleport people.

It will happen regardless of public transport. Imagine if driving solo was a complete non-runner when you were growing up. You, with a lot of pressure and help from your parents/school would have been getting lessons, and sitting your test the minute you were allowed to do so, and well before you really needed the independence of your own car.

The only requirement to make this happen is for the rsa/media to start to make driving solo without a license socially unacceptable. This will allow the government to dictate that the law is enforced, without them actually having to grow a spine and show some leadership.

Midnight_EG

daveharnett wrote: »

It will happen regardless of public transport. Imagine if driving solo was a complete non-runner when you were growing up. You, with a lot of pressure and help from your parents/school would have been getting lessons, and sitting your test the minute you were allowed to do so, and well before you really needed the independence of your own car.

The only requirement to make this happen is for the rsa/media to start to make driving solo without a license socially unacceptable. This will allow the government to dictate that the law is enforced, without them actually having to grow a spine and show some leadership.

In all fairness, the American system should be taken on, or else at least the Australian one.

In America you get the school lessons, then you can apply for a test, pretty much get it that day, pass it and you have your license, all's grand and over board. But I'd be more inclined towards the Australian way, as you go from a learners permit(same rules as hours), then onto your P's (Provisional) until you're 21, you have to rack a certain amount of hours, 500 iirc, with a licensed driver and they have to record it in a booklet with signature proof. Only then can you go onto your full license, so it works much easier, weeding out the true failures :rolleyes:




Or else we can go India's route, drive down a road, reverse back up, license thanks.

jhegarty

Midnight_EG wrote: »

In all fairness, the American system should be taken on, or else at least the Australian one.

In America you get the school lessons, then you can apply for a test, pretty much get it that day, pass it and you have your license, all's grand and over board. But I'd be more inclined towards the Australian way, as you go from a learners permit(same rules as hours), then onto your P's (Provisional) until you're 21, you have to rack a certain amount of hours, 500 iirc, with a licensed driver and they have to record it in a booklet with signature proof. Only then can you go onto your full license, so it works much easier, weeding out the true failures :rolleyes:

Exaclty. We need some type of structured route to a license.

Preferable everyone should study for and pass the theory test in transition year.

Then 6 months of lessons (minimum 26 hours of professional lessons). Then a driving test on a date you received the day of your first lesson. If you fail then back for 10 more lessons, then try again.

6 points maximum for the first 2 years, or back for a retest.

I think if people could see a timetable , have a test date , make plans then they would be far more willing to accept the law.

the immortals

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Seems this is an everyday and widespread event.

I think they are displaying a basic contempt for the law, and should be dealt with by the authorities, and penalised as necessary.

I've no doubt they are a factor in driving up insurance premiums.

Any views.

p.s. I'll make no apology for the high horse

my god, the things that are a disgrace in this country, eg the banks, the church, rotten politicians, dodgy developers, crime, the price of everything, and you are having a go at learner drivers, unbelievable

Midnight_EG

jhegarty wrote: »

Exaclty. We need some type of structured route to a license.

Preferable everyone should study for and pass the theory test in transition year.

Then 6 months of lessons (minimum 26 hours of professional lessons). Then a driving test on a date you received the day of your first lesson. If you fail then back for 10 more lessons, then try again.

6 points maximum for the first 2 years, or back for a retest.

I think if people could see a timetable , have a test date , make plans then they would be far more willing to accept the law.

Man, take into account the financial deficit you could incur on people with this! Taking the average cost of a lesson at ~€40, bare minimum already sets you back €1,040, then €80 on a test, so €1,120, and if you fail another €480 on top and recurring until you pass? Totally unfair tbh, I done 15 or so lessons and was totally confident I'd pass, but that's neither here nor there.

I think a free, or maybe slightly cost effective learning process should be brought in, whereas we start to learn at 15/16 in TY, then sit the Theory test, then school lessons from January-June say, then over the Summer get the full test, all for a fixed cost. It's certainly be a great incentive for kids and parents alike to grab this initiative and go for it, seems like it would work providing the students strive for it.

daveharnett

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

As someone who HAS to use a car to get to school and back as well...

I'll stop you there. Everybody got to school and back long before schoolgoers could afford cars. Without knowing the first thing about you, I am willing to bet that you would still get an education if you were put off the road in the morning. Might be all sorts of inconvenient, but you wouldn't be the first person to endure some hassle to get to school.

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

...When I drive to school I am exercising my fundamental right to get an education, people who drink and drive are exercising their choice to go out and socialize in a pub.

Education is a right.
Driving a car is not

Midnight_EG

daveharnett wrote: »

I'll stop you there. Everybody got to school and back long before schoolgoers could afford cars. Without knowing the first thing about you, I am willing to bet that you would still get an education if you were put off the road in the morning. Might be all sorts of inconvenient, but you wouldn't be the first person to endure some hassle to get to school.

I definetly agree with this, but time and economic restraints can come into play sometimes, so sometimes driving can be easier.

daveharnett wrote: »

Education is a right.
Driving a car is not

+1
Driving a car is a privilege, and shouldn't be abused, without reference to this topic.

jhegarty

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Man, take into account the financial deficit you could incur on people with this! Taking the average cost of a lesson at ~€40, bare minimum already sets you back €1,040, then €80 on a test, so €1,120, and if you fail another €480 on top and recurring until you pass? Totally unfair tbh, I done 15 or so lessons and was totally confident I'd pass, but that's neither here nor there.

Drop in the ocean compared to buying , taxing and insuring even the cheapest car.

daveharnett

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Man, take into account the financial deficit you could incur on people with this! Taking the average cost of a lesson at ~€40, bare minimum already sets you back €1,040, then €80 on a test, so €1,120, and if you fail another €480 on top and recurring until you pass? Totally unfair tbh, I done 15 or so lessons and was totally confident I'd pass, but that's neither here nor there.

A bargain at twice the price. Seriously, the country could spend twice this much on driver education for every student (think computer simulators, tracks to simulate adverse weather conditions, induce skids/spins etc), and still make a long term saving on property damage, compensation, health care, and loss of revenue from premature death.

Midnight_EG wrote: »

I think a free, or maybe slightly cost effective learning process should be brought in, whereas we start to learn at 15/16 in TY, then sit the Theory test, then school lessons from January-June say, then over the Summer get the full test, all for a fixed cost. It's certainly be a great incentive for kids and parents alike to grab this initiative and go for it, seems like it would work providing the students strive for it.

Spot on.

Midnight_EG

jhegarty wrote: »

Drop in the ocean compared to buying , taxing and insuring even the cheapest car.

I take it you have a full license then? If this was to happen, all full license drivers should have to compensate us in some way for having to pay out such a ludicrous amount of money!

jhegarty

Midnight_EG wrote: »

I take it you have a full license then? If this was to happen, all full license drivers should have to compensate us in some way for having to pay out such a ludicrous amount of money!

I do now. But the first year I was driving I paid €4,000 on insurance (for a 1.1l pug 106).

And that was back in the day when the wait times for a test were about 12 months.

Midnight_EG

Bring back SGS =[

Midnight_EG

I'm going asleep, I have school in a few hours, in which I'm gonna drive too, I expect a bashing from Henry when I get home or check my emails in school


night for those that followed me

tommmy1979

I drove around on my provisional for 3 years, had L plates up one time for about 45 minutes while i was doing my driving test. I paid £7000 (irish pounds) for my insurance over the first 2 years for that particular pleasure)

@ The provisional license holder bashers: learner drivers in this country need to be given a reasonable roadmap for actually obtaining their full licence, starting with drivers ed in secondary school.

Also @ The provisional license holder bashers: I bet most of ye haven't sat the theory test and i'd wager that a lot of the provisional holders in this country would kick your ass on a ROTR test.

nogoodnamesleft

I was seriously injured by a provisional driver driving unaccompanied over 2 years ago and I still suffer with back and shoulder injury to date.
In fact I wasnt the only one or the only car involved but thats another story. Do you think that provisional driver should have been driving unaccompanied?
I wonder what sort of injuries that impact would have caused to a young child?

From driving myself in contential europe the standard of driving in this country is a joke. Few of ye are mentioning the financial cost of doing theory tests, lessons etc. Ive news for ye owning a car is expensive, servicing, tax, insurance and daily running costs mount. Yet ye dont see the value in paying to get the proper education to enable you to drive properly.

Enforcement is the problem. If learners were actually given points for not driving in accordance with the limitations attached to their provisional im sure more would obey the law never mind what say 6points would do to their insurance premium.

R.O.R

congo_90 wrote: »

Can anyone here honestly say they never drove un-accompanied on a learner permit/ provisional licence?

Me - but then again I grew up in a country where the driving laws are enforced, and it's socially unacceptable to drive unaccompanied - as well as voiding any insurance cover.

I hope the insurance companies change their stance and decline to cover unlicenced drivers. I'm sure the thought of getting caught driving with no insurance would be a much greater deterrent than the minor possibility of a fine and 1 point.

When I moved to Ireland I was astounded that a supposedly developed country allowed people to get insurance, then just jump in a potentially deadly weapon with no experience of what to do.

Getting unlicenced drivers off the road will go a long way to improving the standards of driving in this country for the future.

TestTransmission

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Agree in the sense that I can see where you're coming from, but Drink driving is a fair bit away from learner drivers. I've been driving since January this year, bought my car in May and garaged it until July while completing some work on it. I'm not gonna lie and say I have the cleanest of clean driving records in my 4 months driving, but I can honestly say I'm competent and haven't a single problem coping in any condition so far. I just don't see the fairness in putting such a burden on us drivers who can go about our business carefully and competently, because from my experience I can already see I'm a much better driver than most out there (especially in car parks and motorways/national primary roads/town!), yet they have a full license and I don't. I failed my first driving test by a tiny bit, and honestly didn't and couldn't see where the 'tester' got these marks, but oh well.

I'm sure if the tests were conducted fairly and ubiased, a lot of the so called L-platers would have that coveted pink license! Most of you out there got it for free anyway just because it so happened that you could, so why make it hard on us?

You really dont deserve to be ranting here,you couldnt even pass the most basic driving test

murphym7

I drove around on a provisional license, like my wife, for years. Total lazziness. But we were driving around within the accepted practice of what was acceptable at the time. Dempsey came out and said get your bloddy license are we will enforce the law, fair enough we both went away did our tests and became legal. It is no longer acceptable to drive aroud like we did before so you should not do it. Simple enough concept to grasp I think.

jhegarty

R.O.R wrote: »

I hope the insurance companies change their stance and decline to cover unlicenced drivers. I'm sure the thought of getting caught driving with no insurance would be a much greater deterrent than the minor possibility of a fine and 1 point.

Would you still think that was a good idea if one of them hit you ?

As you are left paying your own medial bills because they are uninsured.

We need more people insured, not less.

snowman707

Theanswers wrote: »

I drove with a learners permit for nearly 8 months. Not a word said, why wouldnt i drive alone? Before i got the permit i was learned to drive vechicles on a private lane (gears etc).
I drove constanly without a full driver, took it slow. Practised my driving skills... This is what the vast majority of people do. Guards do not care, they understand the law is abit ridiculous as they have a abit of what we in the west call "cop on"... They make a sensible decesion. However if the learner driver was messing, then possibly it should be dealt with. But if the driver is just going about the business causing no harm to anyone then they should be let on their way. Which is what happens 99% of the time.
The insurance companies also cover you in a accident, so you have no worries. Plus i have no option but to drive on my own, i live in the rural west of this country. There is NO dart, NO Luas, NO Bus transport basically. once every three hours or so, and theirs a twenty minaute walk involved, the last bus is at 7pm and usually they dont even stop!! taxi costs €28 from town. How is that cheap? We have no other option. I'm glad though, at least guards have some "cop" and no matter what rules they bring into force in Dublin they will not be enforced in the rest of the country unless they are actually sensible! I now have a full license, not that i needed it, only needed it so i could drive in Europe.

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Henry, do you propose that I stop driving which would then leave me stumped as to how I'd get to school 15 miles away with no viable bus connection, I could no longer get to my gf on the other side of the city without at least 2 hours free to put up with busses and town, and then various other activities? I'm not causing anyone harm, I'm going about my business in such a manner that is safe and of no direct harm to you. have you ever been hit by a learner permit holder, or have you ever even held one?

cloneslad wrote: »

I'm guilty of driving with a learners license without a full licensed driver beside me.

I have been studying for my degree, living and working in asia then back in studying for my masters degree ever since I was the legal age to drive and I could not even afford a car anyway.

I am now 25 and have my own car which is fully taxed, insured and NCT'd until september 2011 and I drive very carefully, never go over the speed limit, keep my lights on during the day and have never driven on the motorway and don't even drink, let alone drink and drive. when possible I get lifts with friends rather than drive myself or else get a full licensed driver next to me.

I would take my test tomorrow if I could but I'm waiting on a date for my full test to be given to me. I had to wait 6 months before I could do it (the 6 months are up next week) I really hope to get it sorted out asap because I would like to be driving 100% legally.

I know it's still illegal and I can't think that I should be an exception to the rule, but there are a lot of full licensed drivers out there who drive like maniacs pushing up insurance premiums more than people like me.

Midnight_EG wrote: »

I'm going asleep, I have school in a few hours, in which I'm gonna drive too, I expect a bashing from Henry when I get home or check my emails in school


night for those that followed me

I haven't read through all the posts here but the first thought that comes to mind are those people who constantly give out about L drivers , Are they parents theirselves? Do they live in rural areas with no public services.

I am a parent in such circumstances am presently the youngest of my 4 kids is awaiting his driving test. Yes all of mine have driven unaccompanied , but not before they had each got at least 5 lessons and not before I was happy to allow them out on their own.They were always covered by insurance contrary to what is stated by some "experts" in other threads in this forum.their vehicles were always taxed and road worthy.They always had their L plates displayed,

I came across 4 cars off the road due to ice yesterday morning, no L plated that I could see. crossing from Birdhill to Killaloe I had to use all my driving ability to avoid a 09 D silver audi who lost it while overtaking on a continuos white line. Doubt if he was a driver

In this area the gardai generally don't bother with the drivers going to college, work, or sports etc., and I respect them for this however they have cleaned up the uninsured boy racer idiots who are are now almost non existent

Give the youth a chance it is tough enough going for them, and for their parents. I am far more concerned about tailgaters, idiots who drive bmw and passats , for some reasons all those models in this area came without indicators. I could go on and on.

Mol an oige agus thiocfaid si

R.O.R

jhegarty wrote: »

Would you still think that was a good idea if one of them hit you ?

As you are left paying your own medial bills because they are uninsured.

We need more people insured, not less.

No, because then I'd have to claim from the fund for uninsured drivers.

But something needs to be done. The situation where people are chancing it because there is a very little chance of getting caught, and even if they are caught it's only a financial penalty, needs to change.

Henry Ford III

snowman707 wrote: »

....I am a parent in such circumstances am presently the youngest of my 4 kids is awaiting his driving test. Yes all of mine have driven unaccompanied , but not before they had each got at least 5 lessons and not before I was happy to allow them out on their own.They were always covered by insurance contrary to what is stated by some "experts" in other threads in this forum.their vehicles were always taxed and road worthy.They always had their L plates displayed...

Who gave you the authority to decide who could drive unaccompanied?

Henry Ford III

Midnight_EG wrote: »

+1. Driving a car is a privilege, and shouldn't be abused, without reference to this topic.

It's a privilege you haven't earned though. That's the point here. You are in no position to decide if you are a competant driver.

Henry Ford III

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Henry, do you propose that I stop driving which would then leave me stumped as to how I'd get to school 15 miles away with no viable bus connection, I could no longer get to my gf on the other side of the city without at least 2 hours free to put up with busses and town, and then various other activities? I'm not causing anyone harm, I'm going about my business in such a manner that is safe and of no direct harm to you. have you ever been hit by a learner permit holder, or have you ever even held one?

Yes. Because it's illegal. Your circumstances in this instance are totally irrelevant.

You cannot make the decison or judgement on whether you are a competant driver.

Why not just pass the test?

jhegarty

R.O.R wrote: »

No, because then I'd have to claim from the fund for uninsured drivers.

But something needs to be done. The situation where people are chancing it because there is a very little chance of getting caught, and even if they are caught it's only a financial penalty, needs to change.

Because that fund is paid for by me , and all the other insured drivers on here.

bad2dabone

Hi lads,

I'm teaching my mother how to drive at the moment and I leave the L plates up on my car, I've often been in front of garda cars and I've seen other cars with L plates up in front of garda cars etc and not a word has been said.

So if the police are unwilling to enforce the laws and the insurance co's honor the claims then theres no disincentive against people driving who haven't passed their tests.

Irregardless of the legality, if the police don't enforce it people won't obey it.