Learner permit holders flouting the law.

Henry Ford III

Seems this is an everyday and widespread event.

I think they are displaying a basic contempt for the law, and should be dealt with by the authorities, and penalised as necessary.

I've no doubt they are a factor in driving up insurance premiums.

Any views.

p.s. I'll make no apology for the high horse

Berty

I agree with you yet ironically I did it myself.

Why?

Possibly because I knew nobody would catch me. This was back in the days when you did NOT have to carry your driving license.

Learner drivers are flouting the law. This morning I was parked up doing some paperwork when a learner skidded sideways from an estate obviously not used to ice.

antomorro-sei

I'd say there's only a very small percentage of Learner Permit drivers actually stick to those rules where they need fully licenced drivers with them.

jhegarty

antomorro-sei wrote: »

I'd say there's only a very small percentage of Learner Permit drivers actually stick to those rules where they need fully licenced drivers with them.

It's far better now than it was. The new fines etc...

VolvoMan

It seems to be a big problem with you, Henry. Doesn't it?

antomorro-sei

jhegarty wrote: »

It's far better now than it was. The new fines etc...

Are they really enforced though?

Photi

Berty wrote: »

Learner drivers are flouting the law. This morning I was parked up doing some paperwork when a learner skidded sideways from an estate obviously not used to ice.

You can pass your test and have a full licence without ever going near ice.

Mr Benevolent

Why stop at learner drivers? Most Irish motorists show contempt for the law every day whether they hold a learner permit or not. It comes down to our non-existent testing regime, lack of basic education on driving in secondary school and a general reluctance to do anything sensible while on the road. IMO it's the equivalent of people being given a car and told to get on with it.

Our standard of driving is improving gradually, but various things that aren't covered while learning to drive (i.e, motorway driving) are letting us down. Another thing that isn't covered is night driving - a very important skill for a significant % of the country. Combine night driving with country lanes and a learner permit and it becomes a deadly combination. I'd guess that up to 25% of road deaths are caused by this combination. Another topic not covered is slippy surfaces, again a major contributor to accidents and possibly deaths in winter. Very few people can handle a car effectively on ice, gravel, mud or anything with a low grip surface. Yet a mandatory half an hour on a skidpan would at least give them some idea of how to control a car in those circumstances, or at least encourage them to buy a car with traction control!

Learner drivers are flouting the law. This morning I was parked up doing some paperwork when a learner skidded sideways from an estate obviously not used to ice.

See above. Exactly where in the test/training was skid control covered?

congo_90

I think its great how they can get away with it :rolleyes: If not why not

They are being dealt with by the authorities etc etc.. Why do you think the law was given proper maximum fines and penalties recently?
Provisional/learner permit drivers got their act together.

Can anyone here honestly say they never drove un-accompanied on a learner permit/ provisional licence?

When I was on a provisional (17), I used to work as a lounge boy in a pub in the country. Are you suggesting I should've walked on dark country roads or disturbed someone in my house to come and collect me at 1am/2am?

There was always checkpoints outside and I was never penalised in that time.
the gards never even blinked an eye at it. Seeing as I was doing something honest and working with no other way of going home especially on a cold winter night like tonight.

jhegarty

congo_90 wrote: »

Can anyone here honestly say they never drove un-accompanied on a learner permit/ provisional licence?
.

I would be surprised if 5% of people here could.

Ardennes1944

i got my full license 5months ago, had my provisional for about 8months.never drove without my mum or dad in the car. was never a big thing for me and now i feel im a much more sensible driver. i can understand how some ppl need it for work when they live in the shticks though.most of my friends drove to and from school with L plates every day and they got stopped once or twice and only one got a fine. the rest just got asked their names and where they were going to,once they didnt look like muppets driving around pointlessly then they were just told "dont do it again ok". what can we expect if the gardai wont obey the law why would 17 and 18 year olds especially. its exactly like everything else in this country, the lawlessness starts from the top

congo_90

stevefinn wrote: »

i got my full license 5months ago, had my provisional for about 8months.never drove without my mum or dad in the car. was never a big thing for me and now i feel im a much more sensible driver. i can understand how some ppl need it for work when they live in the shticks though.most of my friends drove to and from school with L plates every day and they got stopped once or twice and only one got a fine. the rest just got asked their names and where they were going to,once they didnt look like muppets driving around pointlessly then they were just told "dont do it again ok". what can we expect if the gardai wont obey the law why would 17 and 18 year olds especially. its exactly like everything else in this country, the lawlessness starts from the top

You just said it. That relates to people who may be unacompanied but were sensible drivers. I'd like to include myself in that.

Some people like to use the car to visit friends other halfs etc so having a parent in the car is not usually convenient. Not that this applies to you op. Just pointing out from a young drivers perspective.

Henry Ford III

congo_90 wrote: »

I think its great how they can get away with it :rolleyes: If not why not

They are being dealt with by the authorities etc etc.. Why do you think the law was given proper maximum fines and penalties recently?
Provisional/learner permit drivers got their act together.

Can anyone here honestly say they never drove un-accompanied on a learner permit/ provisional licence?

When I was on a provisional (17), I used to work as a lounge boy in a pub in the country. Are you suggesting I should've walked on dark country roads or disturbed someone in my house to come and collect me at 1am/2am?

There was always checkpoints outside and I was never penalised in that time.
the gards never even blinked an eye at it. Seeing as I was doing something honest and working with no other way of going home especially on a cold winter night like tonight.

The new laws are not being enforced evenly/at all I reckon.

Just because there's no handy option doesn't give anyone on a learner permit the right to drive alone.

congo_90

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The new laws are not being enforced evenly/at all I reckon.

Just because there's no handy option doesn't give anyone on a learner permit the right to drive alone.

you're right there. It doesn't Likewise someone doesn't have the right to break into someones house and rape someone but it does happen.
This thread was pointless. This has been discussed to death many times.

I've luckily never held a learners permit.
I presume you never drove unaccompanied and never once broke any laws?

Maybe you should write a letter to the RSA and see what comes of it. I'm sure the gards would love to hear from it.

Henry Ford III

Not going off on an argumentative tangent with you. Sorry.

congo_90

Thats ok. I just thought this thread was started to discuss learner permits and the laws regarding them.
My last post. I promise

MagicMarker

They could at least make an effort, driving down the M50 with L plates up is just lazy.

Henry Ford III

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Seems this is an everyday and widespread event.

I think they are displaying a basic contempt for the law, and should be dealt with by the authorities, and penalised as necessary.

I've no doubt they are a factor in driving up insurance premiums.

Any views.

p.s. I'll make no apology for the high horse

Everybody does it as did I, get over it.

Henry Ford III

Grady Little Hotel wrote: »

Everybody does it as did I, get over it.

What gave you the right to do that?

pistolpetes11

congo_90 wrote: »

you're right there. It doesn't Likewise someone doesn't have the right to break into someones house and rape someone but it does happen.
This thread was pointless. This has been discussed to death many times.

I've luckily never held a learners permit.
I presume you never drove unaccompanied and never once broke any laws?

Maybe you should write a letter to the RSA and see what comes of it. I'm sure the gards would love to hear from it.

I agree with you completely,

Out of curiosity is there actually any statistics on road accidents that gives a breakdown on what % of accidents are actually caused by Learner drivers.

It just seems like its the easy option to go for them all the time, after all we were all learner drivers before.

Personally I think the Traffic Guards should be focusing there man power on drink driving, speeding , tax doggers, uninsured drivers.

happymondays

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Seems this is an everyday and widespread event.

I think they are displaying a basic contempt for the law, and should be dealt with by the authorities, and penalised as necessary.

I've no doubt they are a factor in driving up insurance premiums.

Any views.

p.s. I'll make no apology for the high horse

to be honest id much prefer if the people who tailgate, cause a tailback of more than 10 cars, dont use roundabout properly, can park properly and people who drive a bmw or white van were dealt with first. 99% of which are full licience drivers. i encounter much less problems with L drivers.

MagicMarker

happymondays wrote: »

to be honest id much prefer if the people who tailgate, cause a tailback of more than 10 cars, dont use roundabout properly, can park properly and people who drive a bmw or white van were dealt with first. 99% of which are full licience drivers. i encounter much less problems with L drivers.

What if the van is paddy-winkle blue?

pistolpetes11

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Seems this is an everyday and widespread event.

I think they are displaying a basic contempt for the law, and should be dealt with by the authorities, and penalised as necessary.

I've no doubt they are a factor in driving up insurance premiums.

Any views.

p.s. I'll make no apology for the high horse

I doubt very much that there the reason driving up insurance premiums.
Insurers put a lot of there cash into the global stock markets, with the global recession they have lost a lot of money and have to recoup this in some way.

Other points to look at could be the rise in thefts or even the damage from flooding, insurance fraud ???

Correct me if I am wrong but have road deaths/accidents not taken a considerable drop this year ?

Also these 'Learners" pay very high premiums which you benefit from.

Henry Ford III

Henry Ford III wrote: »

What gave you the right to do that?

I didnt even think about not doing it tbh. Especially a few years ago when I was on a provisional nobody cared, now a small few care you being one of them.

I could drive long before I turned 17 and had been driving tractors on the road alone when I turned 16 so having an accompanied driver was not very high on my priority list.

Toots

congo_90 wrote: »

Can anyone here honestly say they never drove un-accompanied on a learner permit/ provisional licence?

Yes!! Although in all fairness, I didn't buy my first car until I had my licence. I drove my Mum's car while I had my provisional (was 17 and still in 5th year), and she steadfastly refused to let me drive on my own. TBH, when I was learning I found it a real confidence boost to always have Mum or Dad beside me, cos it meant that I could get advice/reassurance etc if I found myself in a sticky situation. I think it also stopped me developing bad habits (coasting etc) cos they'd constantly be checking on me to see what I was up to and what would cause me to lose marks on the test. However, I do acknowledge that I was very lucky having my parents there to do that for me, and not all people have someone who can accompany them.

louisa200

In all fairness I drove for two years on a provvie, never had a tip.... soon as i got my license things went downhill, tip here, scrape there, 2 points for driving through an (amber the guard was blind and it wasnt safe to stop) traffic light, I seem to find myself in yellow boxes with no intention of turning left lol... seem to always go that little past the white line, and occasionally forget to indicate...

The provisional drivers are the least of our concerns on the roads, after all they are as bright and enthusiastic as little buttons lit up.. its the knob heads (and mainly taxi drivers) who are the most dangerous. The 30 somethings in mpvs, the elderly with caps on with big hairy ears, the punto and micra drivers and those who got given a free license a few ago for doing nothing....

atleast provisional licence drivers are learning somthing, unlike most of us, on our full license who spend half the time asleep, who think they have the right to road rage cause they are such good drivers, and people such as taxi or bus drivers who think because they drive and get paid for it they can totally forget about the rules of the road...... imo lol

daveharnett

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I think they are displaying a basic contempt for the law

I can't blame them to be honest. They are taking their lead from those who write the laws without the will to enforce them.

People fundamentally act out of self interest. It is no surprise that an unenforced law will be ignored when it is convenient for people to do so. Writing laws which you have no intention of enforcing, and which you know will be broken left right and centre undermines the whole concept of THE LAW, and is about as contemptuous as it gets.

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I've no doubt they are a factor in driving up insurance premiums.

Don't see why. Unlicensed drivers' premiums are loaded by insurers to reflect their higher statistical risk.

Theanswers

I drove with a learners permit for nearly 8 months. Not a word said, why wouldnt i drive alone? Before i got the permit i was learned to drive vechicles on a private lane (gears etc).
I drove constanly without a full driver, took it slow. Practised my driving skills... This is what the vast majority of people do. Guards do not care, they understand the law is abit ridiculous as they have a abit of what we in the west call "cop on"... They make a sensible decesion. However if the learner driver was messing, then possibly it should be dealt with. But if the driver is just going about the business causing no harm to anyone then they should be let on their way. Which is what happens 99% of the time.
The insurance companies also cover you in a accident, so you have no worries. Plus i have no option but to drive on my own, i live in the rural west of this country. There is NO dart, NO Luas, NO Bus transport basically. once every three hours or so, and theirs a twenty minaute walk involved, the last bus is at 7pm and usually they dont even stop!! taxi costs €28 from town. How is that cheap? We have no other option. I'm glad though, at least guards have some "cop" and no matter what rules they bring into force in Dublin they will not be enforced in the rest of the country unless they are actually sensible! I now have a full license, not that i needed it, only needed it so i could drive in Europe.

Midnight_EG

Henry, do you propose that I stop driving which would then leave me stumped as to how I'd get to school 15 miles away with no viable bus connection, I could no longer get to my gf on the other side of the city without at least 2 hours free to put up with busses and town, and then various other activities? I'm not causing anyone harm, I'm going about my business in such a manner that is safe and of no direct harm to you. have you ever been hit by a learner permit holder, or have you ever even held one?

daveharnett

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Henry, do you propose that I stop driving which would then leave me stumped as to how I'd get to school 15 miles away with no viable bus connection, I could no longer get to my gf on the other side of the city without at least 2 hours free to put up with busses and town, and then various other activities? I'm not causing anyone harm, I'm going about my business in such a manner that is safe and of no direct harm to you. have you ever been hit by a learner permit holder, or have you ever even held one?

It's an understandable point of view, midnight. That said, it sounds remarkably like an older generation's complaints about drink driving legislation. "How do I get home from the pub 15 miles away with no public transport. I take it handy, I'm not causing anyone harm, I'm going about my business in such a manner that is safe and of no direct harm to you."

Not being able to drink and drive doesn't seem like such an imposition to (most :mad:) people of our age, because we just don't see the alternative as an option. Hopefully in ten years time, young people will think the same way about driving solo without a full license.

Midnight_EG

daveharnett wrote: »

It's an understandable point of view, midnight. That said, it sounds remarkably like an older generation's complaints about drink driving legislation. "How do I get home from the pub 15 miles away with no public transport. I take it handy, I'm not causing anyone harm, I'm going about my business in such a manner that is safe and of no direct harm to you."

Not being able to drink and drive doesn't seem like such an imposition to (most :mad:) people of our age, because we just don't see the alternative as an option. Hopefully in ten years time, young people will think the same way about driving solo without a full license.

Agree in the sense that I can see where you're coming from, but Drink driving is a fair bit away from learner drivers. I've been driving since January this year, bought my car in May and garaged it until July while completing some work on it. I'm not gonna lie and say I have the cleanest of clean driving records in my 4 months driving, but I can honestly say I'm competent and haven't a single problem coping in any condition so far. I just don't see the fairness in putting such a burden on us drivers who can go about our business carefully and competently, because from my experience I can already see I'm a much better driver than most out there (especially in car parks and motorways/national primary roads/town!), yet they have a full license and I don't. I failed my first driving test by a tiny bit, and honestly didn't and couldn't see where the 'tester' got these marks, but oh well.

I'm sure if the tests were conducted fairly and ubiased, a lot of the so called L-platers would have that coveted pink license! Most of you out there got it for free anyway just because it so happened that you could, so why make it hard on us?

To reference the drink driving, I have an experience on this, High horsers stop here because I didn't down 10 pints and blew off down the road. I had a single bottle of beer before I was told I was needed in my house for an 'emergency' which I won't go into detail over. Now clearly I was under the limit, but even in the 2 mins I was driving I could tell the little effect it had on me, and made me wonder why anyone would even attempt it at 5 or more pints, bottles even. It's just so many worlds apart from learners prowling the streets, and should never be compared to each other.





Sorry for the rambling, I've never actually done it on motors :rolleyes: