is purgutory real ?

wolfsbane

lmaopml said:

Hi Wolfsbane,

I agree with you that the differing opinions are stemming from the differing views on Justification. Catholics don't believe in once saved always saved...This was a doctrine that stemmed from the new reformed church. I understand that your take on this would be that Catholics reduce the sufficiency of Christ by not agreeing with this...

Augustine might have contributed something to the debate, don't you think?

I don't know if sufficiency is our main objection to the RC position. Our belief centres on what the Bible teaches about God's election and the promise He gives to keep all who follow the Shepherd. For example:
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I would respectfully disagree. Catholics believe in baptism that we are saved by the Grace of Jesus Christ and that he actually 'lives' in us, and it's this 'image' that the father sees in us......we are called to be an 'image' of him in our earthly lives, we are now temples of the living God....We are not meant to 'sin' at all, as we are now living vessels of the son of God....He has given us everything, his body, his blood, his soul and his grace....We must strive to be totally like him.

That is also the Reformed understanding.

We don't believe that Christ is a 'substitute' for our sins, and thereafter our sins don't point towards us anymore, that he has substituted himself so we're ok. This in no way limits or underestimates or disgraces the sufficiency of Christs sacrifice, it holds it up as the single reason why we can say we are justified....

The Bible tells us Christ is the substitute for His people's sins. For example:
Isaiah 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
...10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul,and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

John tells us:
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There is no stain to be burned out of God's children - Christ's blood cleanses it all.

I have posted Scripture references a few pages back...

The Fathers also...

Traditions also....

as did Kelly1 before me, thankyou Kelly1

Yes, thank you for them. I hope to respond soon. Christmas overtime has limited my time.

Purgatory is not a fundamental issue, but it is a degrading issue - it makes the sacrifice of Christ insufficient to pay for all our sins
I will again respectfully disagree. Catholics believe that purgatory is far from a degrading issue - it is anything but - it saves us from degrading ourselves by standing before God without being absolutely pure.....

I meant degrading to Christ's work, not to us. Purgatory means Christ's work was not enough to cleanse us from all sin.

No doubt purgatory was held by some from early generations after the apostles.

Thankyou, yes it was, and I believe it still is in the Eastern Churches too...

But then so was Arianism - remember Athanasius contra mundum (Athanasius against the world).

Where do you think we get 'purified before we enter heaven', but purgatory??? This is exactly it! Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom - not heaven.

Abraham's bosom was Paradise, not a place of suffering. The contrast between the Rich Man and Lazarus revealed that:
Luke 16:23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

Think also of the repentant thief - with Jesus immediately in Paradise. When we leave this earth, we leave our partial sanctification behind and see Him face to face. No separation. Why? The blood of Christ is the only means of removing moral stains:
Revelation 1: 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.

Catholics believe that after we die, we get judged, if we are saved we get 'purified' for heaven or we are sent to hell. The Catholic Church teaches that this purification MUST take place, it doesn't testify as to how long it takes, it could be the blink of an eye....However, it dogmatically states that we MUST be purified before heaven 'as by fire', which is found in sacred scripture.

If it is our sins that must be removed by fire, and not our vain works, then Christ's blood is not sufficient for the task. That is where Biblical Christianity and Roman Catholicism part.

1 Cor 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall
be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. 16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 But if any man violate the
temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.


Let's face it Wolfsbane if we are 'saved' always and forever then the 'suffering' and 'loss' that Paul refers to here sounds very much like Purgatory...He is saying we must be purified to behold God - totally!

The text speaks of works being preserved or destroyed, not people. It speaks of us being rewarded or losing out, not being punished/purified in the fire. The fire burns up our vain works, not us. It is all about our works, whether they are acceptable to God (and so we get rewards) or not (in which case all our effort on them is lost).

The Church of Christ continued, both inside and outside the imperial Church, and at the Reformation it gained widespread effect. So today there are true believers inside the RCC, although most are outside of it.

I am sorry you believe this is the case. I think you may just be badly informed of the Catholic churches teachings and the anti Catholic propoganda. I wish we could explore things without the creeping animosity and bias between our two faiths, because I truely believe the Church is entirely misunderstood, and sometimes purposefully so...

I'm basing my case on the published works of the Magisterium, not on the opinions of Catholic individuals or indeed Protestant criticisms of Rome.

Anyway, I consider myself a true believer, but not a perfect one, and I love Jesus very very much, as I'm sure you do

I'm glad to hear of you love of Christ. That means you will follow him where ever He leads, even if that contradicts the dictates of any Church.

This particular video on Youtube, explains the position on purgatory far more eloquently than I could hope to...

Here is the link if anybody is at all interested

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ifKJSuKaNk&NR=1

Very interesting presentation. Scott seems to suggest the Rich Man of Luke 16 was in Purgatory, yet the passage seems clear enough that he died an unbeliever. Like his brothers, he had not believed Moses and the prophets. Unrepentant unbelievers end up in hell, lost forever.
Luke 16:7 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”