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is purgutory real ?

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  • 22-11-2009 4:33pm
    #1
    darno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20 ✭


    is purgutory real ?,,,,,,,i hope so i want my family and friends to be saved


«1345

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    #2
    Spacedog
    Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭Spacedog


    Yes, it's real, a friend of mine who died, came back to life and told me all about it. i don't think he is the kind of person to lie about such a thing.


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    #3
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    darno wrote: »
    is purgutory real ?,,,,,,,i hope so i want my family and friends to be saved
    No, it's not. It's a man-made doctrine.

    And if it were real, it still would not help you. The idea is that all who are in purgatory will certainly be saved anyway, it just being a matter of how much suffering they must go through first.


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    #4
    keano_afc
    Registered Users Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    As Wolfsbane said, it is made up, no scriptural reference supports such a belief.

    The bible says it is appointed for man once to die, and THEN judgement (my emphasis). There is no waiting room before we face God.


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    #5
    darno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20 ✭darno


    thanks guys


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    #6
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    I certainly believe in Purgatory and it is a dogma of the Catholic Church. I don't think any would claim to have reached the degree of perfection (in charity) which makes us fit for Heaven. All of us have some inclination to sin. Who can claim to be totally unselfish and totally ordered to the will of God? Nobody with an attachment to sin gets into Heaven. We must be purified before we enter the hallowed presence of God.

    Some verses which provide evidence of purgatory:
    1 Peter 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

    1 Peter 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.

    1 Cor 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall
    be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. 16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 But if any man violate the
    temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

    In these passages, Paul is talking about how God judges our works after death by using a string of metaphors (we are God's building; works are good and bad materials, etc.). Paul says that if a person builds with good materials, he will receive a reward (verse 14). If he builds with a mixture
    of good and bad materials, his work is burned up, but he is still saved (verse 15). If he only builds with bad materials, he has destroyed the temple, and God will destroy him (verse 17).

    Matthew 5:26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

    Matthew 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

    Jesus is saying that one can be forgiven either in this age (earthly life) or in the age to come (after death). Those who are in heaven (which is in the age to come) have no need for forgiveness (true), and those who are in hell (which is in the age to come) cannot be forgiven (true). Therefore, there must be another state in the age to come where we can be forgiven (true). This is purgatory.

    Matthew 18:32 Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me: 33 Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant,
    even as I had compassion on thee? 34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

    God bless,
    Noel.


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    #7
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    As far as I know it's just made up.


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    #8
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    niallsparky wrote: »
    As far as I know it's just made up.
    Hello Niall, when the Church declares something as dogma, it doesn't and can't just make it up! It must be based on Scripture.

    See the Catholic Encyclopedia and some info on what the Church Fathers had to say about it.


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    #9
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I don't believe purgatory exists, I also don't think the wording of "prison" is referring to purgatory but rather to Hades or to Sheol, the place of the dead until the point where Jesus Christ will come to judge.

    I personally, and no offence intended, believe that purgatory is a contrived notion. Jesus Christ justifies us, He makes us clean. There is no reason why we need to go to purgatory before we can adequately be judged.


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    #10
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    niallsparky wrote: »
    As far as I know it's just made up.

    Indeed, it was invented by the RC Church, but I think they have let go the belief in recent years?


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    #11
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Camelot wrote: »
    Indeed, it was invented by the RC Church, but I think they have let go the belief in recent years?
    No, you're confusing it with Limbo. Purgatory is a Catholic dogma and so will never change.


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    #12
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    kelly1 wrote: »
    No, you're confusing it with Limbo.

    Ah yes, 'Limbo' thats another one!


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    #13
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    What's limbo??:confused:
    I thought that was just a joke or something?:o


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    #14
    oshead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,131 ✭✭✭oshead


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Some verses which provide evidence of purgatory:
    Verses relating to purgatory are not evidence in its self. They are simply evidence of the belief of purgatory by whomever wrote those verses.

    Is purgatory real? In a word..... No! Just some thing made up to appease those who are neither good nor bad. Reintroduced from scriptures by Pope Gregory the Great in the 6th century to appease/appeal to Normal folk. :rolleyes:


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    #15
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    oshead: It's whether or not these passages relate to purgatory that we need to discuss in the first place.


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    #16
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    oshead wrote: »
    .....Reintroduced from scriptures by Pope Gregory the Great in the 6th century to appease/appeal to Normal folk. :rolleyes:
    I take it you didn't look at my link about the Church Fathers which go back to 160AD?


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    #17
    postcynical
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭postcynical


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I certainly believe in Purgatory and it is a dogma of the Catholic Church.

    Nice post Kelly1. I didn't know that purgatory was dogma - very convincing post.


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    #18
    postcynical
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭postcynical


    oshead wrote: »
    Verses relating to purgatory are not evidence in its self. They are simply evidence of the belief of purgatory by whomever wrote those verses.

    The verses in question are from the Bible.


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    #19
    Plowman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Plowman


    This post has been deleted.


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    #20
    Slav
    Registered Users Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Slav


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Some verses which provide evidence of purgatory:

    These look more like reading Purgatory into Scripture, tbh.
    1 Peter 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

    1 Peter 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.
    Where is Purgatory?Peter wrote about Sheol here and Sheol is not Purgatory, is it?
    1 Cor 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall
    be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. 16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 But if any man violate the
    temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

    In these passages, Paul is talking about how God judges our works after death by using a string of metaphors (we are God's building; works are good and bad materials, etc.). Paul says that if a person builds with good materials, he will receive a reward (verse 14). If he builds with a mixture
    of good and bad materials, his work is burned up, but he is still saved (verse 15). If he only builds with bad materials, he has destroyed the temple, and God will destroy him (verse 17).
    Where is Purgatory? Did Paul give any hints in this passage that he believed in purification fire needed to enter Heaven for those who are saved? I can't see any.
    Matthew 5:26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.
    Where is Purgatory? Are you suggesting that the prison here is Purgatory? Then the judge in the previous passage must be God himself?

    "Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison." (Matt 5:25)

    That is not the God I know. And who is the officer BTW?

    Matthew 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

    Jesus is saying that one can be forgiven either in this age (earthly life) or in the age to come (after death). Those who are in heaven (which is in the age to come) have no need for forgiveness (true), and those who are in hell (which is in the age to come) cannot be forgiven (true). Therefore, there must be another state in the age to come where we can be forgiven (true). This is purgatory.
    Where is Purgatory? First of all, if something cannot be forgiven in the ages to come it does no necessarily mean that something can be forgiven there. Secondly, even if it is the case I still fail to see any references to the purification aspect of that state. Why are you saying "this is purgatory" -- am I missing some logical conclusion here?

    Matthew 18:32 Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me: 33 Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant,
    even as I had compassion on thee? 34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.
    Where is Purgatory? Perhaps I'm not very good at puzzles but I don't see any connection between this parable and the catholic purgatory. Could you please explain?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    some info on what the Church Fathers had to say about it.

    Unfortunately the standards of working with the patristic heritage in the Roman Church are relatively low, probably because there was never a real need for it for the vast majority of Catholics -- indeed, roma locuta, causa finita. As a result we can see such collection of quotes aimed to prove a certain RCC dogma which would make anyone who's only briefly familiar with the authors either laugh or groan. :(


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    #21
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    Scripture != Evidence.


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    #22
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Rb wrote: »
    Scripture != Evidence.

    In a discussion on the Christianity Forum it does. If you don't like that then you are under no obligation to participate.


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    #23
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    PDN wrote: »
    In a discussion on the Christianity Forum it does. If you don't like that then you are under no obligation to participate.
    And you see nothing humourous about taking the (very conflicting) words of men who lived in caves and mud huts a few thousand years ago as evidence in this day and age?


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    #24
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Sorry Slav, I really don't want to get into a long drawn-out and fruitless debate over Purgatory. Let's just agree to disagree?


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    #25
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Slav wrote: »
    These look more like reading Purgatory into Scripture, tbh.

    Where is Purgatory?Peter wrote about Sheol here and Sheol is not Purgatory, is it?

    Where is Purgatory? Did Paul give any hints in this passage that he believed in purification fire needed to enter Heaven for those who are saved? I can't see any.

    Where is Purgatory? Are you suggesting that the prison here is Purgatory? Then the judge in the previous passage must be God himself?

    "Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison." (Matt 5:25)

    That is not the God I know. And who is the officer BTW?


    Where is Purgatory? First of all, if something cannot be forgiven in the ages to come it does no necessarily mean that something can be forgiven there. Secondly, even if it is the case I still fail to see any references to the purification aspect of that state. Why are you saying "this is purgatory" -- am I missing some logical conclusion here?


    Where is Purgatory? Perhaps I'm not very good at puzzles but I don't see any connection between this parable and the catholic purgatory. Could you please explain?



    Unfortunately the standards of working with the patristic heritage in the Roman Church are relatively low, probably because there was never a real need for it for the vast majority of Catholics -- indeed, roma locuta, causa finita. As a result we can see such collection of quotes aimed to prove a certain RCC dogma which would make anyone who's only briefly familiar with the authors either laugh or groan. :(
    Well said, Slav. Let me just add:

    The whole concept of us being punished for our sin when we leave this life denies the atonement of Christ. It says He bore all the big sins and left us to suffer for all the lesser ones.

    The Bible teaches us:
    1 Peter 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

    He bore our sins - all of them; by His stripes we are healed, not His plus ours.


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    #26
    patmartino
    Closed Accounts Posts: 79 ✭✭patmartino


    PDN wrote: »
    In a discussion on the Christianity Forum it does. If you don't like that then you are under no obligation to participate.

    There is NO biblical evidence for this. What Kelly has posted is completely open to interpretation which is the bibles flaw.

    There is none for celibacy.
    There is nothing about priests being married.
    There was none for Limbo yet the church destroyed the lives of those parents who believed the most.


    Vatican is now emphasising Hell is an idea rather than a place.


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    #27
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    The whole concept of us being punished for our sin when we leave this life denies the atonement of Christ. It says He bore all the big sins and left us to suffer for all the lesser ones.

    According to Catholic doctrine, there is temporal and eternal punishment and not all sins merit hell (venial and mortal). Christ came to save us from eternal punishment but due to God's justice we still have to pay a temporal price for sin commited either by good works (charity) or suffering on earth or purgatory.

    I'd be interested to hear your interpretation of this verse:
    1 Peter 4:8 But before all things have a constant mutual charity among yourselves: for charity covereth a multitude of sins.

    What does it mean to cover sins?


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    #28
    patmartino
    Closed Accounts Posts: 79 ✭✭patmartino


    kelly1 wrote: »
    According to Catholic doctrine, there is temporal and eternal punishment and not all sins merit hell (venial and mortal). Christ came to save us from eternal punishment but due to God's justice we still have to pay a temporal price for sin commited either by good works (charity) or suffering on earth or purgatory.

    I'd be interested to hear your interpretation of this verse:



    What does it mean to cover sins?

    It could mean anything.

    God is christ, he cannot die, he sent himself to heal us for what, ....


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    #29
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    patmartino wrote: »
    There is none for celibacy.
    There is nothing about priests being married.
    There was none for Limbo yet the church destroyed the lives of those parents who believed the most.

    Vatican is now emphasising Hell is an idea rather than a place.

    Where do people get the idea that the Church makes things up as it goes along?

    Celibacy is advocated by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 7:
    32 I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. 33 But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,
    34 and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband. 35 I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction.
    ......
    38 So then, the one who marries his virgin does well; the one who does not marry her will do better.

    Regarding hell, this is also a dogma of the Church which is primarily a state of separation from God and eternal remorse.


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    #30
    Slav
    Registered Users Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Slav


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Sorry Slav, I really don't want to get into a long drawn-out and fruitless debate over Purgatory. Let's just agree to disagree?

    Absolutely, Noel. After all, this way we'll always have something to agree on! :)

    To be honest I was not interested at all at any fruitless debates or at attacking someone beliefs; I'm really sorry if I sounded like this. All I was hoping for is to see a reference to a little bit more serious research about this dogma. This is the area of my personal interest but I have not seen such research so far.

    God bless!


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    #31
    patmartino
    Closed Accounts Posts: 79 ✭✭patmartino


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Where do people get the idea that the Church makes things up as it goes along?

    Celibacy is advocated by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 7:



    Regarding hell, this is also a dogma of the Church which is primarily a state of separation from God and eternal remorse.

    Apologies I should have been crystal clear, Celibacy for priests.

    What about addressing Limbo?

    The RC church has made up quite a substantial amount of rules that vary with the zeitgest.


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