The Match **DO NOT START OTHER MATCH THREADS**

stovelid

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I don't agree that "anyone would have done it", but even if I did accept that, the fact that he has form means that he's not actually comparable to someone who has done it once, or might do it.

How much football do you actually watch?

Are you trying to say that the number of players who would cheat to turn a match of this importance is negligible?

Henry - as in the player that we happen to be discussing - has form in this regard. There are, however, many, many players who would have done the same in his position, whether instinctively or calculatedly.

Putting the moral onus on players to behave themselves is doomed to failure. As is trying to finger one of them for retribution.

Hence the need for better adjudication.

My name is URL

Thierry Henry thought about quitting international football following his handball in last week's World Cup play-off win over the Republic of Ireland.

The striker found himself at the centre of a huge fall-out after the incident, which helped France beat Ireland and book a place in South Africa.

And when asked if he had considered retiring amid the controversy, he told French newspaper L'Equipe: "Oh yes.

"Friday, when it all went too far, I was very worked up."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/internationals/8373804.stm

Nice spin... now he's the victim

Liam Byrne

stovelid wrote: »

How much football do you actually watch?

Plenty. But maybe there's a subconscious appeal of fairness to the ones that I watch and support.

stovelid wrote: »

Are you trying to say that the number of players who would cheat to this extent to turn a match of this importance is negligible?

I would certainly hope that it's very, very low, and that if they did they were banned for bringing the game into disrepute and set an example.

stovelid wrote: »

Henry - as in the player that we happen to be discussing - has form in this regard. There are, however, many, many players who would have done the same in his position, whether instinctively or calculatedly.

If there were that many, I'd argue that Ronaldo and Henry wouldn't have such a reputation for doing it.

stovelid wrote: »

Putting the moral onus on players to behave themselves is doomed to failure. As is trying to finger one of them for retribution.

"Fingering them for retribution" - known in the real world as punishment to fit the crime - should show those who would consider this that it's not acceptable.

stovelid wrote: »

Hence the need for better adjudication.

Agreed. But combined with decisive and SERIOUS action on the offenders.

EDIT : I just this second heard that Henry supposedly "considered quitting football" but "didn't want to let his country down" :rolleyes: What a load of bollox!!! He "let his country - and it's reputation - down" WHEN HE CHEATED....his PR bull****-writer must be working overtime, and is doing a crap job!!!

stovelid

My name is URL wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/internationals/8373804.stm

Nice spin... now he's the victim

Somebody said it in the press already, but imagine he had owned up to the handball straight after.

Not sure if the referee would have disallowed the goal on the persuasion of a player (or if they would actually be allowed to) but his status as a good sport would have been so universal and legendary as to almost eclipse the prize of qualification, especially as he has a Euro and World Cup medal already.

I guess he doesn't see it that way though.

stovelid

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I would certainly hope that it's very, very low, and that if they did they were banned for bringing the game into disrepute and set an example.

Watch the World Cup (obviously I'm sure you do). It's becoming more and more difficult for me to enjoy it because of the lack of sportsmanship. The diving, cheating and gamesmanship. Players rarely get the punishment I think is warranted.

Look at Materazzi. Rivadlo. Slaven Bilic. All a blight on the last few tournaments.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

"Fingering them for retribution" - known in the real world as punishment to fit the crime - should show those who would consider this that it's not acceptable.

Thing is Liam, video evidence would finger them effectively. As it stands, it's nigh-on impossible to overturn a result if the referee doesn't see it.

Liam Byrne

stovelid wrote: »

As it stands, it's nigh-on impossible to overturn a result if the referee doesn't see it.

No-ones talking about overturning a result (at least not me, anyway) - I said "forget the replay" earlier, remember ?

If someone elbowed someone in the face off-the-ball, and it's caught on camera, do they get banned based on "video evidence" ? As far as I know they do.

So Henry should be given a ban based on the same precedent / premise.

Liam Byrne

stovelid wrote: »

Watch the World Cup (obviously I'm sure you do).

Not any more. I'm with you on the bull**** that's ruined it, but now that that has been 100% endorsed and excused by FIFA, any notion of fair play has been abandoned.

lugha

Liam Byrne wrote: »

If someone elbowed someone in the face off-the-ball, and it's caught on camera, do they get banned based on "video evidence" ? As far as I know they do.

So Henry should be given a ban based on the same precedent / premise.

Fine. Give Henry a yellow card retrospectively (the punishment for deliberate handball) and we’re done . Oh, and out of fairness, give Keane three yellows for his three handballs!
While video evidence is used extensively for violent conduct, it is rarely used (Eduardo aside) for diving / deliberate handball. Don’t see a good reason why they don’t but they don’t.

OutlawPete

Thierry Henry wannabe .. :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyspPcBlLp0

lugha

OutlawPete wrote: »

Thierry Henry wannabe .. :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyspPcBlLp0

Hardly! He only touched the ball once.

aDeener

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Really ? Because your post was VERY specific:



And even now, you're talking about "when it was awarded", "in an interview afterwards", etc, etc.

So you are covering up - but obviously very aware of - the FACT that there was NO CHEATING; they did NOTHING illegal or dishonest or unsporting to influence the awarding of the penalty.

Henry, on the other hand, did something 100% illegal and dishonest and unsporting in order to influence the awarding of the goal.

hmm i thought that you thought my opinion only changed when the goal was scored. not the case i meant but before and after it was taken i.e as soon as it was awarded irish players could have asked the ref what it was for, say it wasnt a penalty etc...

how can you say its not unsporting to take a penalty knowing full well you didnt deserve it?

deisedevil

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No-ones talking about overturning a result (at least not me, anyway) - I said "forget the replay" earlier, remember ?

If someone elbowed someone in the face off-the-ball, and it's caught on camera, do they get banned based on "video evidence" ? As far as I know they do.

So Henry should be given a ban based on the same precedent / premise.

A ban for a handball!! :eek: Have the rules changed?:P

Liam Byrne

aDeener wrote: »

how can you say its not unsporting to take a penalty knowing full well you didnt deserve it?

Assuming that you don't know you deserve it ?

Well, it's definitely closer to "sporting" than deliberately controlling the ball twice!!

deisedevil wrote: »

A ban for a handball!! Have the rules changed?

1) France could well not have been at the World Cup, so it's a case of making the punishment fit the crime....can you SERIOUSLY comment that it will be OK if Henry - as French captain - collects the 2010 "Fair Play" themed World Cup ?

2) They should do, in order to stamp this crap out and bring back the game we used to love

TestTransmission

According to Sky Sports News

FIFA have announced a meeting of its top officials to discuss the "incidents" of the play offs and the irregular betting during the play offs.

Ulysses Gaze

deisedevil wrote: »

A ban for a handball!! :eek: Have the rules changed?:P

Video evidence is used in other sports to retrospectively punish foul play the refs miss. Usually this results in fines and/or bans

It works for rugby...why not soccer?

aDeener

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Assuming that you don't know you deserve it ?

Well, it's definitely closer to "sporting" than deliberately controlling the ball twice!!




1) France could well not have been at the World Cup, so it's a case of making the punishment fit the crime....can you SERIOUSLY comment that it will be OK if Henry - as French captain - collects the 2010 "Fair Play" themed World Cup ?

2) They should do, in order to stamp this crap out and bring back the game we used to love

true it is closer to sporting than the double handball, but that doesnt answer my question - do you think it is unsporting to take a penalty knowing you dont deserve it?

My name is URL

jackncoke wrote: »

According to Sky Sports News

FIFA have announced a meeting of its top officials to discuss the "incidents" of the play offs and the irregular betting during the play offs.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=702836&sec=worldcup2010&cc=5739

wow =o

FIFA president Sepp Blatter has called an extraordinary meeting of the world governing body's executive committee in response to Republic of Ireland's controversial defeat by France in the World Cup play-offs.

FIFA said in a statement: "Due to recent events in the world of football, namely incidents at the play-offs for the 2010 FIFA World Cup South Africa, match control (refereeing) and irregularities in the football betting market, the FIFA president has called an extraordinary meeting of the executive committee.

"The extraordinary meeting of the executive committee will take place in Cape Town on 2 December 2009."

The Pontiac

jackncoke wrote: »

According to Sky Sports News

FIFA have announced a meeting of its top officials to discuss the "incidents" of the play offs and the irregular betting during the play offs.

My name is URL wrote: »

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=702836&sec=worldcup2010&cc=5739

wow =o

With all the negative media attention this is after bringing on the 'beautiful game', I'm delighted to hear about this..

I know all the 'time to move on' pessimists here will claim the meeting will have little impact, and that FIFA had to be seen to do something etc., etc., but I disagree. I strongly believe the Henry incident will have a huge impact in making soccer a much fairer game.

My name is URL

<Ollie> wrote: »

With all the negative media attention this is after bringing on the 'beautiful game', I'm delighted to hear about this..

I know all the 'time to move on' pessimists here will claim the meeting will have little impact, and that FIFA had to be seen to do something etc., etc., but I disagree. I strongly believe the Henry incident will have a huge impact in making soccer a much fairer game.

Precisely, I never thought for one minute a replay would happen, the people saying "har look at those idiots begging for a replay" obviously have no concern about football as a whole

this fiasco will be a catalyst for huge changes in the game, for everyone

that's even better than a replay imo

Liam Byrne

jackncoke wrote: »

According to Sky Sports News

FIFA have announced a meeting of its top officials to discuss the "incidents" of the play offs and the irregular betting during the play offs.

The plot thickens........it's the first I've heard about "irregular betting" !!!! :eek:

Is it another red-herring/smokescreen or is it based on facts ?

dr.bollocko

There was a huge scandal there recently about irregular gambling in the bundesliga etc. This meeting will be about that. FIFA have already said it will not lead to a replay folks. Sorry.

stovelid

Good call.

They'll have to thrash out the implications of the major FIFA policy failure during the play-offs that saw Russia not getting to South Africa.

I mean. like, Slovenia who?

Ulysses Gaze

The meeting in South Africa will be a talk shop.

On the handball scandal I'd imagine they will be framing a statement to the media about the issue, suggesting that technology will become part of the game and that nothing can be done now but any video technology, refs behind goals etc will take effect at the World Cup itself (thus enabling them to use the now devalued 'Fair Play' World Cup slogan ) and during the Euro 2012 qualifiers.

No chance of a replay. Or a sanction for Henry. He's suffered enough as it is in the media, will be the message.

OutlawPete

dr.bollocko wrote: »

There was a huge scandal there recently about irregular gambling in the bundesliga etc. This meeting will be about that. .

I can't see why you think the meeting us just about the betting scandal. Why would FIFA bother mention the playoffs in the statement in that case, wouldn't that just be creating a headache for themselves?

"Due to recent events in the world of football, namely incidents at the playoffs for the 2010 FIFA World Cup South Africa .."

OutlawPete

Here is a really good article from World Cup News which covers a few areas other articles didn't like some violence issues in the playoffs also.

FIFA call meeting to discuss play-off irregularities

November 23, 2009

Sepp Blatter has called a crisis meeting of FIFA chiefs following Republic of Ireland's controversial World Cup exit at the hands of France but the world governing body is not considering a U-turn over its decision to refuse a replay.

Blatter has called an extraordinary meeting of FIFA's executive committee to deal with the fall-out of the match in Paris where Thierry Henry's obvious handball led to the goal that caused Ireland's defeat in the play-off.

The meeting will also deal with the violence sparked by Egypt and Algeria's World Cup play-off and the hundreds of arrests across Europe by officers investigating corruption in football. It is understood that a replay of the Ireland v France match is not on the cards, with a senior FIFA source saying: "A replay is impossible - it would be against the rules of football."

But one possible outcome of the meeting could be a proposal to fast-track UEFA's current experiment in the Europa League of having an extra assistant referee behind each goal-line in time for next summer's World Cup finals.

The system is being championed by UEFA president Michel Platini and, though it would have to go to the International Football Association Board (IFAB) meeting in March for a vote, any proposal would almost certainly be passed.

Scottish chief executive Gordon Smith, who sits on IFAB along with the three other home nations and FIFA, said: "I've no doubt that Michel Platini will use this incident to push the system and they may now decide to put it to IFAB that they want to have it at the World Cup.

"I feel that it has its advantages at the highest levels of the games. When there's massive TV coverage, the problems are highlighted all over the world, so this is something we may have to look at.''

Blatter is also likely to condemn Henry's action but to stop short of pushing for a suspension for Barcelona's French striker. The FAI, meanwhile, have said they are happy to contribute to the meeting in any way.

The FIFA president will also address the issue of seeding, both for the play-offs - which were criticised by the Republic - and the finals. He is also expected to express his concern over allegations of match-fixing.

UEFA confirmed last week that they has been assisting the German authorities with investigations into corruption and match-fixing allegations relating to up to 200 games in domestic league games in Austria, Belgium, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, Germany, Hungary, Slovenia, Switzerland and Turkey. A further 12 Europa League and three Champions League games are also under investigation.

FIFA said in a statement: "Due to recent events in the world of football, namely incidents at the play-offs for the 2010 FIFA World Cup South Africa, match control (refereeing) and irregularities in the football betting market, the FIFA president has called an extraordinary meeting of the executive committee.

"The extraordinary meeting of the executive committee will take place in Cape Town on 2 December 2009."

Meanwhile, Henry has said he was stunned at the people who had turned their back on him.

Henry told French radio station RTL: "It's okay - it's getting better, you could say. I'm beginning to digest it a bit better. The first handball honestly was like an awakening. With the first handball, I didn't even know that it touched me, it's after that I had a bad reflex, on the second. I swear I don't even know the first touched my hand.

"I have had many calls from players, coaches, people I had lost touch with, who have supported me who have told me that all this really didn't matter, that this had all gone too far and that I was totally in tune with them.

"But people who should have come forward to defend me and perhaps smooth over what is happening in France and especially smooth over what is happening in England, well I did not see anyone. You know when you think that you will be supported, but there was no support and honestly that really shocked me."

Henry said he had given everything to help France qualify for the finals.
"I have always fought for Les Bleus and I will always fight for Les Bleus," he said. "Since the beginning of the season, I have come to play for the national team carrying injuries.

"I have even put myself at odds with my club - the club and the coach Pep Guardiola have been extraordinary on this matter because he understood that I wanted to play and try to qualify the France team.''

soups05

I'm just wondering about something. If the roles were reversed and keane handled the ball leading to a goal, what does everyone think would have happened?
if you take the view that france MAY have scored in extra time then a keane handball would be cheating by the irish to deny france.

it has been asked on this thread would the irish call for a replay. I wonder would FIFA call for a replay.

if FIFA was favouring france to go through (as has been suggested) then would they have ordered a replay to help them?

on another note a mate (who knows alot more about football than i do) belives that FIFA will boot out solvinea due to match fixing and replace them with Ireland. I dont know enough to argue but i did not think they could do that.

Liam Byrne

soups05 wrote: »

on another note a mate (who knows alot more about football than i do) belives that FIFA will boot out solvinea due to match fixing and replace them with Ireland. I dont know enough to argue but i did not think they could do that.

That'd be sweet....one set of cheats sidelined and we'd hopefully meet the other ones in the final and whup their sorry, cheating asses!

That said, though, the same question should be asked as has been asked in relation to treating Henry the same as anyone else who cheated (red card, no major sanctions or whatever).

Why should they kick out one set of cheats and not the other ? Why Slovenia and leave France untouched ?

stovelid

In the highly unlikely event of Slovenia being demoted, I'm sure it would be Russia who would step up.

And there is no way that FIFA (or anybody) would view handball and match-fixing as being equally serious.

drdeadlift

still have a funny feeling we may get to sa

SoupyNorman

drdeadlift wrote: »

still have a funny feeling we may get to sa

Thats a hilarious feeling alright.


Every fiber in my body wants for us to be going but nothing short of every team pulling out of the WC in protest is going to see it happen. FIFA are interpreting the rules as suits at the moment, they are doing it from from the top tier which leaves no avenues for arbitration.

I dont know how any French player or supporter can get any enjoyment from supporting their country. Am I being naive I wonder?, will they support on in ignorance? Would we support on in ignorance if the roles were reversed?


P.S. I'm still gutted.