The Match **DO NOT START OTHER MATCH THREADS**

The Pontiac

stovelid wrote: »

Embarrassment on a cosmic scale.

Football and the way it's governed is embarrassing. The way they deal with cheating, diving, players rolling around the ground like they've been shot, racist chanting, hooliganism etc. is embarrassing. The way FIFA/Platini arranged the play-offs to favour the big nations though seeding is embarrassing. The way FIFA left the Henry incident out of their initial match report is embarrassing. How a team, in this day and age, preceded to the biggest spectacle in world sport though a blatant act of cheating/rule-breaking, watched by millions of people, is embarrassing.

I knew by the end of the week I would swing from genuine outrage to detesting the Irish "football public", government, tabloid rags and other bluffers that are getting involved

Surely you already detested the government and the tabloid rags long before this..

redorblack

Felt so sorry for the lads but Cowen whinging to Sarkozy and Dermot Ahearne getting involved as well as the marching muppets its getting silly at this stage.

lugha

<Ollie> wrote: »

Football and the way it's governed is embarrassing. The way they deal with cheating, diving, players rolling around the ground like they've been shot, racist chanting, hooliganism etc. is embarrassing. The way FIFA/Platini arranged the play-offs to favour the big nations though seeding is embarrassing. The way FIFA left the Henry incident out of their initial match report is embarrassing. How a team, in this day and age, preceded to the biggest spectacle in world sport though a blatant act of cheating/rule-breaking, watched by millions of people, is embarrassing.

Few things there. Footballing authorities (in Britain if not FIFA) have done remarkably well IMO in combating racism and hooliganism in football. True, they have been remarkably reluctant to retrospectively use video evidence to punish cheating even though they will do so for serious foul play. As far as favoring the stronger nations, well they have being doing that for quite a while when the groups are initially made up using a seeding system. It is hardly inconsistent that they would also do so in any play offs, it was the fact that they changed the ruled mid stream that caused the justified uproar. As for their match reports, well who cares what they do or don't say in them, who even reads them? It was pretty clear what happened, I didn't need to read any official report to make my mind up about it. As for Henry's blatant act of cheating, well you can persist if you wish with the myth that the Irish were the sole victims of such an injustice. I watched a couple of games today and I saw several instances of deliberate fouls to thwart breakaway attacks. In fact a sizable proportion of yellow cards are issued for precisely such “cheating”. Should every match be revisited and every such instance of this be addressed with a replay as a possible sanction? Anybody who takes of the green specs for a few seconds will see that it is utterly impractical for FIFA to reschedule a match because of a refereeing error or because of a player deliberately fouling or “cheating”. The are hunkering down and waiting for the storm to pass, which is a fairly sensible course of action IMO.

Liam Byrne

lugha wrote: »

As for Henry's blatant act of cheating, well you can persist if you wish with the myth that the Irish were the sole victims of such an injustice.

No-one's suggesting that Ireland are the "sole victims of such an injustice".

lugha wrote: »

In fact a sizable proportion of yellow cards are issued for precisely such “cheating”.

Which seems to kaibosh the suggestions that it's not punishable.

lugha wrote: »

Should every match be revisited and every such instance of this be addressed with a replay as a possible sanction? Anybody who takes of the green specs for a few seconds will see that it is utterly impractical for FIFA to reschedule a match because of a refereeing error or because of a player deliberately fouling or “cheating”.

It doesn't require "green specs" to want and promote fair play.

lugha wrote: »

The are hunkering down and waiting for the storm to pass, which is a fairly sensible course of action IMO.

Whatever about the vague or non-existent possibility of a reply, there should be SOME sanction to set down a marker that cheating isn't acceptable.

If FIFA banned Henry, and had referred to the controversy in their match report, then we could take them seriously; but as it is they've proved - as much by changing their match report as by the original deliberate omission - that "hunkering down" is solely because they know well they are wrong and are just hoping it'll pass.

And - like I said - if they choose that approach they'll lose a LOT of fans.

lugha

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Which seems to kaibosh the suggestions that it's not punishable.

Nobody suggested it is not punishable. But there seems to be a policy of not undermining referees by reversing their decision. The refs won't see everything. Sometimes you'll benefit, sometimes not.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Whatever about the vague or non-existent possibility of a reply, there should be SOME sanction to set down a marker that cheating isn't acceptable.

If FIFA banned Henry, and had referred to the controversy in their match report, then we could take them seriously; but as it is they've proved - as much by changing their match report as by the original deliberate omission - that "hunkering down" is solely because they know well they are wrong and are just hoping it'll pass.

But how far do you go? Obviously you would punish Henry? What about Kilbane? If his yellow card foul had not taken place France might have scored and the game might have then turned their way? I would say that at least one of Keane's hand balls was deliberate. Virtually every deliberate foul has the intent of either preventing or scoring a goal. I don't see any coherent plan here (other than punish Henry) as to how things should be done differently. Any attempts to do so are obviously contrived to try and include the Henry situation but exclude all others (i.e. deliberate hand ball which led to a goal in a critically important match).

Liam Byrne

lugha wrote: »

But how far do you go? Obviously you would punish Henry? What about Kilbane? If his yellow card foul had not taken place France might have scored and the game might have then turned their way?

1. Was it deliberate ? Probably. Did the ref see and deal with it as he saw fit ? Yes. Could the ref have decided to send him off ? Yes. Could we have complained about it ? No.

Basic fact is that it was dealt with, not ignored. And the fact that it wasn't even mentioned on FIFA's website sickens me, because - much and all as I hate conspiracy theories - it does lend credence to those.

lugha wrote: »

I would say that at least one of Keane's hand balls was deliberate.

I wouldn't, but we'll have to differ on that; of course, if you say which on, rather than a generic accusation, we can look at which one you mean and see if there's a chance that you're correct.

lugha wrote: »

Virtually every deliberate foul has the intent of either preventing or scoring a goal. I don't see any coherent plan here (other than punish Henry) as to how things should be done differently.

My "coherent plan" would be to root out cheating and - having seen some of the comments about it being "part and parcel of the game" and "win at all costs" - lose the scum element that views winning as the ultimate goal; playing fair is the ultimate goal, striving to become better so that you can win by playing fair is the ultimate goal.....cheating is not acceptable.

lugha wrote: »

Any attempts to do so are obviously contrived to try and include the Henry situation but exclude all others (i.e. deliberate hand ball which led to a goal in a critically important match).

That's your point of view; but there's no "contriving" from my part whatsover.

Like I said, show me the one that you're referring to re Keane and we'll judge it. I definitely didn't see him handling twice giving a complete two-fingers to fair play.

me-skywalker

That_Guy wrote: »

So what you're saying is that every player who sets foot onto a pitch is going out there to instintively cheat? BS.

no i didnt say that you said that. try understand it again.

That_Guy wrote: »

It is an instinct. Yes, he did it deliberately but it's a last minute instinct which, though late, he admitted he handled the ball.

It is an instinct for a forward player/striker to use his hand??? my god im wathcing the wrong sport so!!

That_Guy wrote: »

Many players have done it before and will continue to do it.

and people like you will continue to justify it because it happens and it will continue to happen becaue you let it.

PapaQuebec

From the letters page of yesterdays Indo:
(Apologies if this has been posted before)

Saturday November 21 2009

Come on. You missed it too.

In the split second it took for the ball to flash past the out-of-position Paul McShane, it was shielded from the referee.

But the video evidence confirmed our suspicions. Thierry had handled the ball. Sacre bleu! Is nothing sacred?

In fact, the ref was right. Not having seen the infringement himself, and as the linesman never raised his flag, he was duty-bound to award a goal. Anything else would have been against the rules of the game.

It's blindingly obvious that video evidence should be introduce to make things fairer. But that's not the issue, is it?

Remember the night in Italy when Ireland and Holland played out a draw, knowing that that result would eliminate the Egyptians!

Hardly fair either, but c'est la vie.

Richard Dowling
Mountrath, Co Laois


Irish Independent

lugha

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Was it deliberate ? Probably. Did the ref see and deal with it as he saw fit ? Yes. Could the ref have decided to send him off ? Yes. Could we have complained about it ? No.

Well we could certainly complain about a red for that just as France could have complained if Henry got a red. Both were yellow cards, nothing more. But in any case, now you have me confused. Was Henry’s crime just that he didn’t get caught. Would Kilbane and Keane (see below) be reviled in the same way as Henry if they hadn’t been fortunate enough to get caught? You only seem to consider there to be a violation of the notion of fair play if a player gets away with it. Rather different to my notion of fair play I have to say.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I wouldn't, but we'll have to differ on that; of course, if you say which on, rather than a generic accusation, we can look at which one you mean and see if there's a chance that you're correct.

I would cite two of them in fact. On 75 minutes a cleared ball is looped back in to the French box by Duff. Keane had no chance to take it on his chest so his left arm comes out, and it hits him near the top. Free given, no question of a yellow card but he did deliberately extend his arm. Or even more blatantly, just on 90 minutes Kilbane fires a throw in to the box, Doyle flicks on and it moves past Keane’s mid-rift. Again his left hand comes up to control the ball, instinctively no doubt, but deliberate none the less. (Come to think of it, doesn’t that particular incident remind you of something? )

Liam Byrne wrote: »

My "coherent plan" would be to root out cheating and - having seen some of the comments about it being "part and parcel of the game" and "win at all costs" - lose the scum element that views winning as the ultimate goal; playing fair is the ultimate goal, striving to become better so that you can win by playing fair is the ultimate goal.....cheating is not acceptable.

I was kinda hoping for a tad more detail. As in, a list of infringements where you would retrospectively revisit a game and apply sanctions.
No doubt you would cite deliberate hand ball, and diving. What about the kind of fouls that are routinely visited on skillful players like Ronaldo, Messi or Ronadinho? How about jersey tugging at corners? How about body checking a player breaking quickly out of defense. And there are many more such mundane sins. Many people in the game see these as being routine tactics but they do involve deliberate violation of the rules to gain an advantage. Would you seek to put a stop to them all?

lugha

PapaQuebec / Irish Independent wrote:

In fact, the ref was right. Not having seen the infringement himself, and as the linesman never raised his flag, he was duty-bound to award a goal. Anything else would have been against the rules of the game.
Irish Independent

Absolutely. Of the many silly things that get said about these kind of incidents, one of the dafter ones what is perpetually wheeled out is that the referees should be punished for failing to see something. :rolleyes: One of the obvious ways to improve the standards of refereeing is the way you would improve the standards of players or anything else, namely to try and get more people to get involved. And what can a young lad who fancies that he might have a talent for refereeing hope for if he makes it in the the big time? To be humiliated for making an honest mistake! Sometimes I have a sneaky smile when decisions go against the likes of Sir Alex and other managers who cynically try to undermine managers at the notion that they are likely contributing to their own woes, albeit unknowingly.

Liam Byrne

lugha wrote: »

Well we could certainly complain about a red for that just as France could have complained if Henry got a red. Both were yellow cards, nothing more. But in any case, now you have me confused. Was Henry’s crime just that he didn’t get caught.

Absolutely not, and now there's definitely some "contriving" going on!! I never even remotely said such a thing!

lugha wrote: »

Would Kilbane and Keane (see below) be reviled in the same way as Henry if they hadn’t been fortunate enough to get caught? You only seem to consider there to be a violation of the notion of fair play if a player gets away with it. Rather different to my notion of fair play I have to say.

Absolute bull****! BOTH are unfair play; both deserve to be punished (and even more so if it's 100% deliberate).

But my point is that one of them WAS punished appropriately, while the other wasn't....

So yes, while I'd like to see ALL cheating consigned to the bin, the fact that people get away with it - and particularly so blatantly as Henry did - TWICE, with not even a MENTION of it on FIFA's match report - will encourage it, while you'd hope that appropriate frees and yellows and reds would stop it when it IS caught.

lugha wrote: »

I would cite two of them in fact......

We'll check those and get back to you. Neither seems to be as blatant, but they're worth checking.

lugha wrote: »

.... (Come to think of it, doesn’t that particular incident remind you of something? )

No - I definitely didn't see Keane consciously handle it twice.

lugha wrote: »

I was kinda hoping for a tad more detail. As in, a list of infringements where you would retrospectively revisit a game and apply sanctions.

Anywhere that it looked like deliberate cheating.

lugha wrote: »

No doubt you would cite deliberate hand ball, and diving.

Absolutely.

lugha wrote: »

What about the kind of fouls that are routinely visited on skillful players like Ronaldo, Messi or Ronadinho?

I wouldn't go throwing "Mr Dive" himself, Ronaldo, as an example if I were you; for every one that gets committed on him, he's guilty of two dives.

lugha wrote: »

How about jersey tugging at corners? How about body checking a player breaking quickly out of defense. And there are many more such mundane sins. Many people in the game see these as being routine tactics but they do involve deliberate violation of the rules to gain an advantage. Would you seek to put a stop to them all?

Ideally, yes.

Bending the rules to the limit is OK; breaking them is not on.

lugha

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Absolute bull****! BOTH are unfair play; both deserve to be punished (and even more so if it's 100% deliberate).

But my point is that one of them WAS punished appropriately, while the other wasn't....

Fair enough. Would you be content if Henry is retrospectively given a yellow card for his offence? Of course it wouldn’t matter as yellow cards to not carry over into the finals but that is the sanction for deliberate handball. Most people wouldn’t be content with that. I heard John Aldridge has called for him to get a 10 match ban and miss the world cup altogether. :rolleyes:

Liam Byrne wrote: »

We'll check those and get back to you. Neither seems to be as blatant, but they're worth checking.

Might as well look at the other two as well, on 23 and 38 mins approx in the first half. Only the latter of these would I consider to be entirely accidental which means that 3 out of 4 (IMO) were not. But I don’t think any of these merited a yellow card, although the more I look at it, the more similar the very last one is to Henry’s.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No - I definitely didn't see Keane consciously handle it twice.

I had intended to address this before although I don’t see it as a major point. There is now a universally perceived wisdom that there was a world of difference between touch one and two by Henry. That the first was almost akin to a consequence of the folly of youth but on mature reflection (all of about one tenth of a second later!) he should have reflected on what he had done and resolved to sin no more. The instinct for a footballer who sticks out a hand at a passing ball has as its aim, to control the ball so that they may then play it legally. It is not simply a reflex that you might use to bat away an annoying fly. You don’t see a double handball too often because it is rarely necessary, one touch does the trick. For me I saw only one action in Henry’s double touch which was that he tried to control the ball by handling it. Whether he used one touch or two or had a good old dirty ‘auld lad grope is irrelevant. And of course this controversy would rage no less if he had only handled once

Anyway, aren’t you a Spurs man. Your mood should have improved considerably after today!

stovelid

OutlawPete wrote: »

Quite strong and strange that you would "detest" the Irish 'football public' and yet defend a deliberate cheat.

Henry is a cheat, but I guarantee you that many, many players including Irish ones would have handled the ball.

Also, Henry didn't stop us going to the World Cup. He unfairly took away a lead that we may or may not have preserved for another quarter of an hour. To reach a penalty shoot-out that we may or may not have won.

Our football association and government have squandered a golden chance to put the need for video-evidence at the forefront of global football debate this week in favour of pushing for a replay that will never happen.

It's also particularly funny to hear people busting a gut about the FIFA seeding conspiracy against small countries. The same people that lap up the same seeding practices in the Champions League that maximize the chances of the big clubs (so beloved of the Irish public) getting through safely to the knock-out stages.

Henry cheated. FIFA or FFF will never budge on the issue. Time to move on.

OutlawPete

stovelid wrote: »

Henry is a cheat, but I guarantee you that many, many players including Irish ones would have handled the ball..

That is simply not true. There were loads of times in the match were the ball went out of play that I am sure could have been kept in by a handball. Why do you assume that an Irish player where Henry was would cheat?

stovelid wrote: »

Also, Henry didn't stop us going to the World Cup. He unfairly took away a lead that we may or may not have preserved for another quarter of an hour. To reach a penalty shoot-out that we may or may not have won. ..

I think we are all aware of how a football game works when it it goes to extra time. Nobody believes that we were through and nothing else had to be done.

I said it before and I'll say it again. We had them on the ropes and the momentum was with us. We looked winners all the way.

stovelid wrote: »

It's also particularly funny to hear people busting a gut about the FIFA seeding conspiracy against small countries. The same people that lap up the same seeding practices in the Champions League that maximize the chances of the big clubs

We are not all Man U, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea fans you know. Villa fan here

Dudess

Lol at the tags :pac:

The Pontiac

stovelid wrote: »

It's also particularly funny to hear people busting a gut about the FIFA seeding conspiracy against small countries. The same people that lap up the same seeding practices in the Champions League that maximize the chances of the big clubs (so beloved of the Irish public) getting through safely to the knock-out stages.

What conspiracy? France, Portugal and Russia didn't qualify through the group stages, so FIFA/Platini moved the goal posts by seeding the teams. Why didn't they decide this before the play-offs? There isn't any conspiracy - it was "disgusting", as a gentleman like Shay Given put it himself. This is completely different to the champions league seeding system or the group stages of the world cup - where seeding makes perfect sense.

Henry cheated. FIFA or FFF will never budge on the issue. Time to move on.

There's no one expecting a replay now. It's about FIFA acknowledging how ridiculous the game is after becoming. I'd be very surprised if they don't take action (video evidence, man behind the goal etc) with all the negative publicity this is after bringing on 'the beautiful game' and their on-going campaign for 'fair play'.

How in gods name can complaining about something so unfair and unjust be a bad thing. I really don't get this "time to move on" thing at all. Incredible.

OutlawPete

stovelid wrote: »

Henry cheated. FIFA or FFF will never budge on the issue. Time to move on.

Henry cheated. It's p**sed people off no end. Another world cup missed cause some rich spoiled so called professional footballer got greedy.

It's gonna be discussed for as however long people want to discuss it. So, I think it's time for YOU, and people like YOU who disagree, to MOVE ON!

greendom

OutlawPete wrote: »

e.

I said it before and I'll say it again. We had them on the ropes and the momentum was with us. We looked winners all the way.

In the 90 minutes yes. During extra time France looked the only winners. The Irish team were running on empty

Liam Byrne

greendom wrote: »

In the 90 minutes yes. During extra time France looked the only winners. The Irish team were running on empty

So 28 mins of extra time and the French couldn't score means we should lie down and somehow accept that they would have scored in the last two without cheating ?

If they were as convinced of this as you seem to be, then why did they bother to cheat ? I mean, they'd have won anyway, right ?

Ulysses Gaze

For all you people saying 'Move on' here's a question for you.

How much money has the FAI 'potentially' lost out on due to this controversy, and more importantly how much money has the domestic game potentially lost out on because of this?

I know we hadn't qualified so they may have lost out anyway BUT we had the potential to qualify by our own hands ripped from us by Henry's hand.

And the domestic game suffers because of this.

Ulysses Gaze

greendom wrote: »

In the 90 minutes yes. During extra time France looked the only winners. The Irish team were running on empty

How many times have I watched matches where in the final twenty minutes a team has been knocking on the door, throwing the proverbial kitchen sink at the opposition and still failed to score even though they dominated?

Too many.

There is no way of knowing if the French would have scored without Henry's hand. Only supposition.

oppenheimer1

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

For all you people saying 'Move on' here's a question for you.

How much money has the FAI 'potentially' lost out on due to this controversy, and more importantly how much money has the domestic game potentially lost out on because of this?

I know we hadn't qualified so they may have lost out anyway BUT we had the potential to qualify by our own hands ripped from us by Henry's hand.

And the domestic game suffers because of this.

€24m - €26m are the figures been thrown about that the FAI lost out on due to failure to qualify afaik

greendom

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So 28 mins of extra time and the French couldn't score means we should lie down and somehow accept that they would have scored in the last two without cheating ?

If they were as convinced of this as you seem to be, then why did they bother to cheat ? I mean, they'd have won anyway, right ?

I'm not sure what you mean by 28 minutes as France scored after 13 minutes of Extra time and just prior to that, they had the penalty shout and the offside goal.

I don't know why Henry decided to cheat (he says it was an instinctive reaction but I think you need a fair bit of salt to swallow that one)

I said they looked the only winners; that doesn't mean they would win. After all during the 90 minutes Ireland looked like the only team that would go through. Unfortunately despite looking like the only winners, they didn't manage it.

greendom

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

How many times have I watched matches where in the final twenty minutes a team has been knocking on the door, throwing the proverbial kitchen sink at the opposition and still failed to score even though they dominated?

Too many.

There is no way of knowing if the French would have scored without Henry's hand. Only supposition.

Absolutely, no argument from me there.

Sir Gallagher

greendom wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by 28 minutes as France scored after 13 minutes of Extra time and just prior to that, they had the penalty shout and the offside goal.

I don't know why Henry decided to cheat (he says it was an instinctive reaction but I think you need a fair bit of salt to swallow that one)

I said they looked the only winners; that doesn't mean they would win. After all during the 90 minutes Ireland looked like the only team that would go through. Unfortunately despite looking like the only winners, they didn't manage it.

This was how i saw it too, France were starting to turn the screw and it seemed inevetible to me that they were gonna score at some stage. We didn't take our chances and at that stage we were bollox'd, riding your luck in extra time is a dangerous game.

Luap

HENRY CAN GO SUCK MY HAIRY BOWLS!

OutlawPete

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

This was how i saw it too, France were starting to turn the screw and it seemed inevetible to me that they were gonna score at some stage.

You must have been watching a different game to me.

And even if they were coming back at us and looking like scoring. How long did look like scoring againist them and didn't? You can't see one sides goal mouth pressure and not see the other.

They had to cheat to get their goal in the game! We didn't have to, to get ours!!

Sir Gallagher

OutlawPete wrote: »

You must have been watching a different game to me.

And even if they were coming back at us and looking like scoring. How long did look like scoring againist them and didn't? You can't see one sides goal mouth pressure and not see the other.

They had to cheat to get their goal in the game! We didn't have to, to get ours!!

So you don't think France were staring to run the game in extra time? We made a balls of two great chances and at that stage we were playing for penos.

connemara man

Before i start Ireland played incredible and deserved to win, and also the handball was outrageous Henry should be ashamed (apologising and looking for a replay after FIFA and the FFF have said not gona happen is ridiculous) after the most blatant handball gotten away with since Maradonna. But the fact match went to extra time and Henry got into that position should be the main conversation.

Ireland played unreal and should of won the game 3 or 4 nil, we didn't finish France of when we had the chance so in a match when we were playing so intensely we were bound to tire out (evidence the match on Saturday they were dead on their feet with 20 ms to go). that's how France got the goal in leg 1. In extra time France finally started playing and were making opportunities. we were on the back foot. then the freekick Paul McShane should of got to the ball and cleared it before Henry had even the slightest opportunity to commit the offense.

That's how i feel love it or hate it

OutlawPete

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

So you don't think France were staring to run the game in extra time? We made a balls of two great chances and at that stage we were playing for penos.

Yes, but we created those chances. Even if were playing for penos, I don't see what that has do with anything really.

The last 50 posts are all about people complaining that peole are still sore about the guy cheating. Can't you understand that people just want to discuss it, talkm about it.

We are not all stupid. We don't think FIFA is browsing Boards and will grant us a replay should we complain enough. People talk, that's life.

Everywhere I have went the past few days it's the topic of discussion. So why begrudge people one thread on AH.

We'll be done soon. Promise