Fitting a gun safe

JohnnyCrash

Have to fit my safe to a SOLID STRUCTURE.Only prob is,my house has stud partition walls.Any ideas,or is this the wrong forum? DIY maybe?

Rovi

Any possibility of placing it against an outside wall or a chimney?
Solid concrete floor?
If you really must attach it to a partition wall, run threaded bars all the way through and use spreader plates on the other side of the wall.
Ideally, weld the bars to the plates and keep the nuts concealed inside the safe.

Make it so that anyone trying to pull out the safe has to take a good chunk of wall with them.

JohnnyCrash

Superwarm house.Floors timber,only block part of chimney is in sitting room.Dont think her indoors would be too impressed with that! ha ha ha

Cass

There must be a solid wall. Internal walls may be partition but the external walls (whether plastered or studed inside) have to be solid. If not go with Rovi's advice.

Rovi

You're stuck with making the thing as awkward as possible then.
As I already said, bind it into the fabric of the building as much as possible (bolts completely through walls, spreader plates, etc), and make a specific effort to conceal it completely too.

It might be an idea to talk to your local Garda Crime Prevention Officer too, they'll have lots of experience of this sort of thing, and will be able to advise on what will be acceptable to your local Superintendent.

Rew

Have you an attic space where the chimney goes out through the roof?

JohnnyCrash

Good point.Its possible,but would be a bit of a pain climbing a ladder into attic every time i wanted gun,ha ha ha

Rovi

Here you go:
http://www.stira.com/

Lots of people have their gunsafe in the attic bolted to the chimney, don't dismiss the idea out of hand.

CJhaughey

You could always screw a sheet of 3/4 or 1" ply to the wall and then fix the safe to the ply. Hide it as well as best you can.make it hard to get any kind of purchase against the edges of the safe.
Some of the new Mastic adhesives are great for sealing and bonding TEC7 is one.

E. Fudd

All of your external Walls Must contain concrete somewhere within them, and the chances are they are slabbed with plaster board. In this case you've two options:

1). Cut a square in the plasterboard to the shape of the safe, therefore allowing you to put the safe against the concrete wall and bolt it to it. In my opinion, drastic as it may sound, this is the securest option.

2). Purchase a length of threaded bar, 8mm preferably, along with a few 8mm stud fixers (red heads as they are known). They operate by expanding when pushed into an appropriatley sized hole and the threaded rod being screwed into them. Basically what you need to do is drill through the plasterboard and into the concrete,
screw a red-head onto a piece of threaded rod that is long enough to protrude through the plasterboard and into the safe and push it into the hole drilled into the concrete. Tighten the threaded rod with a vice grips at the tip. When you have all the threaded rods into the wall push your safe onto them and bolt it down. You may need to cut the end of the rod off because you more than likely will have damaged it with the vice grips, so make sure you leave plenty of length on the rod. Downside to this method is that it may be possible to pry the safe of the wall by bursting the plasterboard either side, but there'd be a hell of a lot of effort involved.

Rovi

E. Fudd wrote: »

All of your external Walls Must contain concrete somewhere within them,

The OP stated: "Superwarm house", so I suspect he's dealing with this sort of house:
http://www.century.ie/cent/warm.asp

Timber frame houses don't have much in the way of concrete walls, often just the chimney will be concrete or brick.

CJhaughey

E. Fudd wrote: »

All of your external Walls Must contain concrete somewhere within them, and the chances are they are slabbed with plaster board.




2). Purchase a length of threaded bar, 8mm preferably, along with a few 8mm stud fixers (red heads as they are known). They operate by expanding when pushed into an appropriatley sized hole and the threaded rod being screwed into them. Basically what you need to do is drill through the plasterboard and into the concrete,
screw a red-head onto a piece of threaded rod that is long enough to protrude through the plasterboard and into the safe and push it into the hole drilled into the concrete. Tighten the threaded rod with 2 8mm nuts tightened against each other

My house has no block at all, anywhere.The only concrete is the GF slab.

JohnnyCrash

Cheers guys. Have enough options there to be going on with;)

rrpc

Lads you need to think outside the blocks

There's also the floor. OP says it's timber so either it's a suspended floor with a subfloor (concrete) or a concrete slab with battens and floor boards (still concrete but not as deep).

In either case the gun safe can be installed flat and fixed to the sub floor (completely concealed under the floor) or slightly recessed into the floor in a concealed place like a wardrobe etc.

Rovi

rrpc wrote: »

Lads you need to think outside the blocks

There's also the floor.

Ahem!:

Rovi wrote: »

Solid concrete floor?

You went into more detail though.

rrpc

Rovi wrote: »

You went into more detail though.

No, I did spot that Rovi, I just wasn't sure if you were still in a vertical plane (bolting floor to floor) so I expanded it a bit.

The puns are atrocious

rola

Dont know if this helps but if you have a dormer or 1and half sytle house the space between the internal wall and the eves upstairs is often used for storage. If you have this try fixing your safe to the floor joists( bolt trough the side of safe onto side of floor joist) you are then fixing to part of the structure of the house. if this works let me know because i a looking to buy safe and plan on fixing this way

No6

JohnnyCrash wrote: »

Have to fit my safe to a SOLID STRUCTURE.Only prob is,my house has stud partition walls.Any ideas,or is this the wrong forum? DIY maybe?

Johnny even if your house is a timber frame house it will most likely have a solid concrete ground floor, bolt it to that somewhere and you should be fine, You can also bolt it to the timber frame wall, use a stud finder to find the studs and bolt into one of them. If its a two story house the chimney will also be blockwork on the first floor so there is another possible location for you.

Mellor

ezridax wrote: »

There must be a solid wall. Internal walls may be partition but the external walls (whether plastered or studed inside) have to be solid. If not go with Rovi's advice.

E. Fudd wrote: »

All of your external Walls Must contain concrete somewhere within them, and the chances are they are slabbed with plaster board. In this case you've two options:

Lol,
Lets hope your shooting is better than your construction knowledge.


OP, Chimney (in attic, mine is in attic party wall) or floor. (party wall might be an option you overlooked, but you may not have one)

Cass

Care to elaborate. What is wrong asking does he not have a solid wall in the entire house?

Mellor

ezridax wrote: »

Care to elaborate. What is wrong asking does he not have a solid wall in the entire house?

I read it as a statement of fact, like E.Fudd's

On reading again, you probably meant for an air of disbelieve to come accross, I missed it.
Apologies, maybe this ? would of prevented,

4gun

OP if you house is a timber frame construct then find the internal vertical studs and fix safe directly to them using 100mm X 8mm frame fixing screws with a washer if the heads are small you can get them with an oversized posidrive head ,which would be better
you might be able to line one of the holes up with the horizontal noggins as the studs will be too far apart to hit two vertical ones you can get a little stud finder in an goo hard ware
if you take some of the advise given earlier you might create a bridge between the outside and inner walls and allow dampness to penetrate
also if you fix to floor becareful there are no heating pipes in the area
you will need a very good drill to fix them frame screws and you might have to create a pilot hole in the timber first
any one trying to steal your safe will have a bit of ajob on their hands

Mellor

4gun wrote: »

any one trying to steal your safe will have a bit of ajob on their hands

I reckon it would take all of 2 mins to remove that safe.

fixing to a stud is not an option. A hammer to expose the stud, and a saw in the stud would have the thing out in seconds.
The safe might be securely fixed to the stud, but the stud doesn't have to stay in the house

JohnnyCrash

Mellor wrote: »

I reckon it would take all of 2 mins to remove that safe.

fixing to a stud is not an option. A hammer to expose the stud, and a saw in the stud would have the thing out in seconds.
The safe might be securely fixed to the stud, but the stud doesn't have to stay in the house

So the threaded bars would be out the window too? A hammer to expose the bars and a hacksaw for the bars. No party wall,detatched house and the chimney is on the outside of house. Why couldnt i have been the third little pig? ha ha ha ha

johnner1

Here is your final option, find a room or closet down stairs where you want to locate the safe.
Now build a 4in solid wall from floor to celing have have the safe fixed to this, then plaster the wall nice tidy job and gaps around the safe will be sealed with plaster so it will be hard to pry it off your new solid block wall;)

JohnnyCrash

Ha ha ha,and what will i fix THE WALL to,the plasterboard?ha ha ha

johnner1

JohnnyCrash wrote: »

Ha ha ha,and what will i fix THE WALL to,the plasterboard?ha ha ha

you can laugh at what you want, if you had a 4in partion wall in a standard house what would that be fixed to.

i will give you a bit of time to think of that one ha ha ha.

civdef

The Irish Concrete Federation could seize on this as yet another example of how "concrete built is better built".

Most safes I've seen have holes for bolts in the bottom, a few anchor bolts into the sub floor and jobs's a good 'un, no?

sfakiaman

johnner1 wrote: »

Here is your final option, find a room or closet down stairs where you want to locate the safe.
Now build a 4in solid wall from floor to celing have have the safe fixed to this, then plaster the wall nice tidy job and gaps around the safe will be sealed with plaster so it will be hard to pry it off your new solid block wall;)

Thats more or less what I did but I already had a solid wall. I put a stud partition across the end of a corridor with a door and five lever mortice lock. This gave me a cupboard about four foot square with it's own zone on the alarm system. Before going to these lengths it might be a good idea to run your plans past the CPO, I found mine very helpful.

johnner1

JohnnyCrash wrote: »

If you're talking about a standard house with 2 skins of blocks with a cavity in the middle,then the inner wall is tied to the outer with wall ties. and before you say it(whats the outer wall attached to?),a house has walls,corners etc.,which make it a stable structure,its not just a single wall

Who said anything about a single wall,i said a room or a closet and build a 4inch solid wall you have to use your brains from there on, i never said one wall either you would line the room from floor to ceiling that would make it a stable structure.
And here i am trying to help i often wonder.

JohnnyCrash

johnner1 wrote: »

you can laugh at what you want, if you had a 4in partion wall in a standard house what would that be fixed to.

i will give you a bit of time to think of that one ha ha ha.

Its fixed to the wall which is incorporated into the structure.I think theres a big difference fixing a partition wall to a block wall than vice versa.You could pull a plasterboard partition away from a block wall and equally imo,you could pull a block wall away from plasterboard.If the block didnt give,the plasterboard certainly would

rrpc

johnner1 wrote: »

Who said anything about a single wall,i said a room or a closet and build a 4inch solid wall you have to use your brains from there on, i never said one wall either you would line the room from floor to ceiling that would make it a stable structure.
And here i am trying to help i often wonder.

You can also fit wall ties at each end of your wall, bolted to the studs so that the block wall is supported on all sides and the base. If you really want to be anal about it you could also have wall ties behind it on each course and there'd be no hope of shifting it.

Not that any thief would even think of trying to remove a concrete wall :rolleyes:

So you've been given a number of options now JohnnyCrash, anything else we can help you with?

JohnnyCrash

johnner1 wrote: »

Who said anything about a single wall,i said a room or a closet and build a 4inch solid wall you have to use your brains from there on, i never said one wall either you would line the room from floor to ceiling that would make it a stable structure.
And here i am trying to help i often wonder.

Im not trying to pull the P here.Sure if i lined a closet with block,then all i would need to do is fit a big steel door,job done.All i want to do is fit a gun safe somewhere.I appreciate everyones input,but some of it is getting far fetched.

4gun

Mellor wrote: »

I reckon it would take all of 2 mins to remove that safe.

fixing to a stud is not an option. A hammer to expose the stud, and a saw in the stud would have the thing out in seconds.
The safe might be securely fixed to the stud, but the stud doesn't have to stay in the house

well to be honest if i came prepared with the right tools i could take the gun safe off a block structure in about the same time fame so what exactly are you trying to prove
how often do you see thieves going around with that kind of kit most they'd have is a crow bar and they'd need a goo 3ft one to lever the safe away from the wall

JohnnyCrash

rrpc wrote: »

You can also fit wall ties at each end of your wall, bolted to the studs so that the block wall is supported on all sides and the base. If you really want to be anal about it you could also have wall ties behind it on each course and there'd be no hope of shifting it.

Not that any thief would even think of trying to remove a concrete wall :rolleyes:

So you've been given a number of options now JohnnyCrash, anything else we can help you with?

Nah,appreciate all comments,but sense the tone of that was"go away now" ha ha.Cheers

4gun

JohnnyCrash wrote: »

Im not trying to pull the P here.Sure if i lined a closet with block,then all i would need to do is fit a big steel door,job done.All i want to do is fit a gun safe somewhere.I appreciate everyones input,but some of it is getting far fetched.

you safe has to be fitted to a solid structure last time i checked stud walls were a solid structure fix directly tothe studs using the strongest frame screws you can get if some one thinks they will be able to rip it out in 2 minutes, then the next time i have a demolition job i'll give them a call

rrpc

4gun wrote: »

you safe has to be fitted to a solid structure last time i checked stud walls were a solid structure fix directly tothe studs using the strongest frame screws you can get if some one thinks they will be able to rip it out in 2 minutes, then the next time i have a demolition job i'll give them a call

I'll bring me chainsaw

johnner1

JohnnyCrash wrote: »

Im not trying to pull the P here.Sure if i lined a closet with block,then all i would need to do is fit a big steel door,job done.All i want to do is fit a gun safe somewhere.I appreciate everyones input,but some of it is getting far fetched.

i think the only thing far fetched is yourself, great idea putting the steel door up just goes to show when you engage your own brain what you can come up with.
originally you asked for opinions and you got plenty so the decision is yours use what you like, or see can you better the answers yourself.

nip102

On a related topic, some might find interesting when locating their safes.

Recently heard of a robbery, where a gun safe was stolen from a isolated rural house, while owners were out. The safe had been responsibly bolted to an external block wall on the inside of house.

Thiefs obviously were only after safe, knew where it was and did not enter house. They used a sledge or similar to break the blocks/wall behind the safe from outside the house, made a nice big hole and walked away with the loot.

Anyone who has done a bit of similar demolition with a good heavy sledge, will know how easy it is to break blocks.

Cass

nip102 wrote: »

..........The safe had been responsibly bolted to an external block wall on the inside of house. .............Thiefs obviously were only after safe, knew where it was and did not enter house. ..........

So it was someone they (owners) knew or someone they invited into their house. Do not show where your safe is bolted to anyone. Ever. For any reason. (with exception of the Gardai, of course)

rrpc

nip102 wrote: »

On a related topic, some might find interesting when locating their safes.

Recently heard of a robbery, where a gun safe was stolen from a isolated rural house, while owners were out. The safe had been responsibly bolted to an external block wall on the inside of house.

Thiefs obviously were only after safe, knew where it was and did not enter house. They used a sledge or similar to break the blocks/wall behind the safe from outside the house, made a nice big hole and walked away with the loot.

Anyone who has done a bit of similar demolition with a good heavy sledge, will know how easy it is to break blocks.

That's not so easy with a cavity wall. Single skin might be easier, but I'd far prefer to be using a Kango than a sledge.

And you'd want to be sure you had a lot of time!

4gun

rrpc wrote: »

That's not so easy with a cavity wall. Single skin might be easier, but I'd far prefer to be using a Kango than a sledge.

And you'd want to be sure you had a lot of time!

good consaw would save a lot of sweatin' nice clean cut ..be handy to open the safe after:D

homerhop

4gun wrote: »

good consaw would save a lot of sweatin' nice clean cut ..be handy to open the safe after:D

will do ya a good deal on consaws there boss, untraceable of course and still in the box

Rovi

If the bad guys know where your safe is and come equipped to remove it, there's not much anyone can do in a domestic house to prevent them.
I mean, they take ATMs out of bank walls with heavy construction machinery.

What we're looking to do in a domestic situation is not let that information get out in the first place, along with making the safe as difficult to find and remove as possible for the 'ordinary' burglar who is there for the telly and the ready cash.
This involves everything from properly concealing the safe, to having a decent quality alarm, to not leaving 'clues' all over the place (shooting magazines, bits of shooting/hunting equipment, etc), to a host of other precautions that we all take to a greater or lesser degree.

OP: I again suggest that you have a chat with the local Crime Prevention Officer, they'll look at your actual situation, and advise accordingly.

Mellor

4gun wrote: »

you safe has to be fitted to a solid structure last time i checked stud walls were a solid structure fix directly tothe studs using the strongest frame screws you can get if some one thinks they will be able to rip it out in 2 minutes, then the next time i have a demolition job i'll give them a call

Maybe is you actually read my post it would help.
I never said you could rip the screws out in 2 mins. I said the stud. If you can't figure out how this is easier, I'd suggest that you stay away from those demolition jobs.

4gun

Mellor wrote: »

Maybe is you actually read my post it would help.
I never said you could rip the screws out in 2 mins. I said the stud. If you can't figure out how this is easier, I'd suggest that you stay away from those demolition jobs.

yeah, no problem and if you had read my post i could do the same to a block wall if i brought the right equipment with me reciprocating saws are standard tool for burgulars in your area cos that the only way you'd do it in two minutes

rrpc

4gun wrote: »

yeah, no problem and if you had read my post i could do the same to a block wall if i brought the right equipment with me reciprocating saws are standard tool for burgulars in your area cos that the only way you'd do it in two minutes

Chainsaw

4gun

rrpc wrote: »

Chainsaw

exactly,
it's one thing to say you can do it. It's a whole other thing to actually do it

dCorbus

And now to throw some oil on the fire!:D
4gun / rrpc - IMHO You are BOTH correct! Taa Daa!:D
With the right equipment, any wall, floor, structure, building element, etc. can be destroyed and / or removed! And in addition time is always an consideration.:D

The regulations require that the safe be secured to a "solid structure" - unfortunately (AFAIK) they do not define what is actually meant by a "solid structure", but it clearly does not state anywhere "loadbearing structure" (thankfully).

Many buildings are now constructed using timberframe type technology - And I would be of the opinion that these structures may be deemed to be "solid". It is not the individual elements which make up the "structure" which define its "solidity", it's how they are assembled. E.g. Whilst a concrete block is in itself a solid element, it does not mean that a blockwork wall dry-constructed with no mortar etc. could in anyway be classed as a "solid structure". Likewise, a timberframe / stud wall, whilst made up of "less solid" elements, can indeed be constructed and assembled to form a "solid structure".

That's my tuppence worth:D It seems to be that we are all "arguing" / "discussing":rolleyes: at cross-purposes:

To summarise:

- Any "competent" thief with the right tools / equipment and sufficient time can break into anything they want to.
- The purpose of the secure accomodation measures is to ensure that it is neither simple nor easy to remove the gun safe and its contents from the location.
- Total security is an impossibility - Given enough time, equipment, skill, and resources nowhere is totally secure.

Let's not be suggesting various ways and means for our "secure accommodation" to be compromised!:D

Thanks
dC

JohnnyCrash

johnner1 wrote: »

i think the only thing far fetched is yourself, great idea putting the steel door up just goes to show when you engage your own brain what you can come up with.
originally you asked for opinions and you got plenty so the decision is yours use what you like, or see can you better the answers yourself.

So much for attacking the post and not the poster.

Norwayviking

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunsafes.html