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What happens when there are not enough priests - Catholic spirited responses only
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Two questions for christians.
Do you think you would feel uncomfortable/less comnfortable in any way speaking to a female priest. Not looking for sexist comments here, but basing the question on the fact that people, especially the elderly would be traditionally used to talking their male priest.
If priests were allowed to marry do you think that their relationship with their parishioners would suffer i.e. they have their own family to concentrate on, his family may know or learn of your problems/issues, loss of "private" relationship with priest etc0 -
if you ask most anglicans in england,they will tell you that it makes their church priests more approachable,at the end of the day its not if, its when,Two questions for christians.
Do you think you would feel uncomfortable/less comnfortable in any way speaking to a female priest. Not looking for sexist comments here, but basing the question on the fact that people, especially the elderly would be traditionally used to talking their male priest.
If priests were allowed to marry do you think that their relationship with their parishioners would suffer i.e. they have their own family to concentrate on, his family may know or learn of your problems/issues, loss of "private" relationship with priest etc0 -
This post has been deleted.0
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this may open a few minds,in 1994 the anglican church opened up doors to female priests,over 1000,woman applied to the priesthood,to-day 2009 one in five priests are female,no shortage of priests in the anglican church0
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I'd feel quite comfortable talking to a female priest. The real question (maybe for another thread) is will male or female priests experience prejudice when they try dating people? :pac:
I know a family who are from an american Christian church, the dad is the pastor. Their children all seemed as normal and carefree as anyone else growing up, so I'm not sure being the priest's son or daughter would be that big a problem. They are very open with their family home - and regularly have people from their church over - so in that respect the family may make it more inviting.
The only place it may get tricky is if the priest's partner or children have friends who come to him/her for help or counselling.0 -
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Two questions for christians.
Do you think you would feel uncomfortable/less comnfortable in any way speaking to a female priest. Not looking for sexist comments here, but basing the question on the fact that people, especially the elderly would be traditionally used to talking their male priest.
If priests were allowed to marry do you think that their relationship with their parishioners would suffer i.e. they have their own family to concentrate on, his family may know or learn of your problems/issues, loss of "private" relationship with priest etc
No and no.0 -
Two questions for christians.
If it is ok with everyone can we keep this to Catholics, or at least the Catholic position. It is pretty well established that some other Christian denominations don't have issues with say female priests or priests marrying, so it wouldn't be an issue for Christians in general.0 -
Fanny Cradock wrote: »No and no.
Brief, but perfectly answered;)If it is ok with everyone can we keep this to Catholics, or at least the Catholic position. It is pretty well established that some other Christian denominations don't have issues with say female priests or priests marrying, so it wouldn't be an issue for Christians in general.
Meant to say catholic - gotta remember check before I submit.
My mother would consider herself a practicing catholic, and I know from a previous conversation that she would not like the idea of confiding in a female priest. In her words, "it just wouldn't feel right"
However she would be all for married priests0 -
this may open a few minds,in 1994 the anglican church opened up doors to female priests,over 1000,woman applied to the priesthood,to-day 2009 one in five priests are female,no shortage of priests in the anglican church
AS I previously stated I think it would be abhorrent If the RC church decided to allow women into the priesthood now just because there isn't enough men to do the job.
One of the reasons I left the RC church was there inconsistent approach to their views be that original sin,limbo,womens role in the church etc etc. Nothing is more shallow then an organisation that continually changes its beliefs to appear popular to the masses.
I think the best thing the RC church can do is work with what they have. They will just have to reorganise and reshuffle their recourses.0 -
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i can understand why you think that,but isent the whole point of christianity to convert people,and help others to lead a christain life ? did not jesus tell all his followers to go out and spread the word ? and that included mary magdalene [a woman] so why is the catholic church againt woman priests ?AS I previously stated I think it would be abhorrent If the RC church decided to allow women into the priesthood now just because there isn't enough men to do the job.
One of the reasons I left the RC church was there inconsistent approach to their views be that original sin,limbo,womens role in the church etc etc. Nothing is more shallow then an organisation that continually changes its beliefs to appear popular to the masses.
I think the best thing the RC church can do is work with what they have. They will just have to reorganise and reshuffle their recourses.0 -
i can understand why you think that,but isent the whole point of christianity to convert people,and help others to lead a christain life ? did not jesus tell all his followers to go out and spread the word ? and that included mary magdalene [a woman] so why is the catholic church againt woman priests ?
I think there has been previous threads on women priests that would delve in a lot more deeper than my own vague understandings of the situation.
Pope John Paul II outlined the arguments in a document called "Ordinatio Sacerdotalis", which is worthy a look as it exposes how feeble the arguments against women priests actually are.
"Priestly ordination, which hands on the office entrusted by Christ to his Apostles of teaching, sanctifying and governing the faithful, has in the Catholic Church from the beginning always been reserved to men alone. This tradition has also been faithfully maintained by the Oriental Churches.
When the question of the ordination of women arose in the Anglican Communion, Pope Paul VI, out of fidelity to his office of safeguarding the Apostolic Tradition, and also with a view to removing a new obstacle placed in the way of Christian unity, reminded Anglicans of the position of the Catholic Church: "She holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God's plan for his Church."(1)
As far as Mary Magddelene is concerend the church insits that since Jesus did not assign her a paticular role as a disciple, it was then Gods clear intention to have just men as priests:
Furthermore, the fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Mother of the Church, received neither the mission proper to the Apostles nor the ministerial priesthood clearly shows that the non-admission of women to priestly ordination cannot mean that women are of lesser dignity, nor can it be construed as discrimination against them. Rather, it is to be seen as the faithful observance of a plan to be ascribed to the wisdom of the Lord of the universe.
The presence and the role of women in the life and mission of the Church, although not linked to the ministerial priesthood, remain absolutely necessary and irreplaceable. As the Declaration Inter Insigniores points out, "the Church desires that Christian women should become fully aware of the greatness of their mission: today their role is of capital importance both for the renewal and humanization of society and for the rediscovery by believers of the true face of the Church."(10)0 -
I don't think I have.i think slav you have missread me
Believe me, you are seriously overestimating the significance of the Roman cathedra in the 4th century! Even southern Italy was not under the Roman rule for many centuries (actually for more then a thousand years).,the early catholic [universal] church 32 CE,had many branches,abegensians,cathers,arians,anababtists,and coptics,most was distroyed by the later 312CE roman catholic church
Why go back to the early church while there are female teaches of Christianity in RCC? E.g Teresa Avila who is venerated as the Doctor of the Church.many of these had woman teachers,there is a early christian church that has been just found in israel ,that has stones that commemorate five different femail teachers
In Orthodox Church there are saints who are venerated as "equal to the apostles" (ισαποστολος) and there are many females among them (I think at least one third). For example, St Nino for Georgians is like St Patrick for Irish although St Nino, unlike her Irish colleague, was not a bishop or a priest.
I think you are missing the point that preacher != priest in RCC.even today the anglican church is called[reformed catholic] has femail priests, in my eyes there is no religious christian reason for priests to not marry or femails not to be priests
Also you would not find any records, in any branch of Christianity, of female bishops or priests (not teachers!) up until the 20th century.0 -
gospel of thomas,quote jesus loved her more than the OTHER disciples ,further more, she was his beloved had been entrusted with more knowledge and teachings and had a superior vision,.in the early christian era her status was that as a opostle,in the years after jesus death rivaled even that of peter.peter said to mary we know that the savior loved you more than other woman[john11;5 luke 10;35-42] mary answered and said ;what is hidden from you i will impart to you; the later is ironic that the papacy based its authority on a linage from peter as the first person to witness the risen christ ,the question we should be asking is have we been wrong in banning woman in the first place as priests ?0
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I dont really seeing the church itself being too concerned about this. This is our scenario. We only have one priest in our parish & 3 schools for communion. Each child making their communion may only bring 3 people. Ok so mum & dad naturally but what about the God parents who in baptism agreed to guide this child through religion? As a single parent I was very rudely told by the nun in charge she expected my family to be represented as a whole at mass. I was very dissappointed by her in saying this infront of a 7 year old.
We decided to try find a solution to the church being over croweded & When this was questioned they explained only 1 mass was being done for over 100 communion children so need to cram everyone in. We asked for 2 masses - point blank no. We asked for seperate days - point blank no. The priest would be too tired !!!! So a grandparent stood & asked would it be ok if his brother , a priest could do the second mass as he would love to assist us. Point blank NO. So if the church themselves are avoiding this issue of no priests where is the catholic faith going ?0 -
slav here is two for you,in rome a mural depics a woman,theodora episcopa [bishop theodora] also as recent as 1970 ludmila joeova was ordained a priest by a catholic bishop and served in czechoslovakia for 20 years,not all has been hidden from the masses0
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gospel of thomas,quote jesus loved her more than the OTHER disciples ,further more, she was his beloved had been entrusted with more knowledge and teachings and had a superior vision,.in the early christian era her status was that as a opostle,in the years after jesus death rivaled even that of peter.peter said to mary we know that the savior loved you more than other woman[john11;5 luke 10;35-42] mary answered and said ;what is hidden from you i will impart to you; the later is ironic that the papacy based its authority on a linage from peter as the first person to witness the risen christ
Gospel of Thomas does not have much weigh in Christianity forum in general and in Catholic spirited thread in particular. Anyway, I don't understand why are you trying to walk sideways with Gospel of Thomas and Mary Magdalene when you have an example of Virgin Mary who is venerated by Catholics above all saints and angels?the question we should be asking is have we been wrong in banning woman in the first place as priests ?
The reason why there were no female priests in the early Church is because the role of the priest/bishop was very symbolic as he is supposed to act in persona christi. Should God decided to incarnate as a female we would have the opposite situation in RCC: female priesthood only.in rome a mural depics a woman,theodora episcopa [bishop theodora]
Or (which is more likely) "bishops wife Theodora". Certainly not enough evidence to have her counted as a female bishop.also as recent as 1970 ludmila joeova was ordained a priest by a catholic bishop and served in czechoslovakia for 20 years,not all has been hidden from the masses
As for Ms Javorova, it's the 20th century (and as far as I know she is not considered as a priest by the RCC authorities; it's basically her own claim without much evidence).0 -
ludmila javorova,was ordained a roman catholic priest in the late night hours dec 28 1970 by bishop felix maria davidek,in the presence of his brother leo,[ proved witness] more on woman priesthood,epigraphic evidence exists of woman bishops untill a least the 9th century the church gave woman the full sacramental ordination of deacons,woman priests existed in the west during the 4th and 5th centuries according to literary evidence,and according to epigraphic evidence,there is a burial site on the greek island thera, there is a epitaph for epikas named priest,she was a woman priest in the 3rd or 4th century,romans 16;1-16;7 i command to you our sister phoebe a deaconess of the church at cenchrens,give her in union with the lord a welcome worthy of saints and help her any time ,she looks after a great number of people myself included,apostle paul received a fellow apostle by the name of junia[woman] paul and junia was in prison together,then there is a myth of the woman who was pope[or was it a myth ?]the catholic church a spent many years trying to destroy any evidence,in 1276 after ordering a thorough search of papel records,pope john XX, changed his title to john XX1, in official recognition of joans reign as pope john V111,joans story was in the official church guidbook to rome used by pilgrims for over 300 years,in the 1413 trial of jan hus for heresy he said in his defence,many times have popes fallen into sin and error, for instance when joan was elected pope ,who was a woman,not one of the 28 cardinals,four patriarchs,30 metroplitians,208 bishops and 440 theolgian present charged him with lying or blaspheming,the there is the so called ;chair exam ;that was put into place after joans death and used for 600 years,i can give you many more instances of female priests,0
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ludmila javorova,was ordained a roman catholic priest in the late night hours dec 28 1970 by bishop felix maria davidek,in the presence of his brother leo,[ proved witness]
As I said it's the 20th century and it's even not recognised by the RCC. Why we discussing her at all?
One small correction: in case of the Thera tomb πρεσβυτιδας means neither priest nor bishop. It simply means elder (there were different words for bishop and priest) and you can find many other examples of female elders described similarly. Apart from that, everything else above looks like a very good mix of female deacons and female apostles as well as myths and conspiracy theories but it's not clear for me what does it all have in common with female priests?more on woman priesthood,epigraphic evidence exists of woman bishops untill a least the 9th century the church gave woman the full sacramental ordination of deacons,woman priests existed in the west during the 4th and 5th centuries according to literary evidence,and according to epigraphic evidence,there is a burial site on the greek island thera, there is a epitaph for epikas named priest,she was a woman priest in the 3rd or 4th century,romans 16;1-16;7 i command to you our sister phoebe a deaconess of the church at cenchrens,give her in union with the lord a welcome worthy of saints and help her any time ,she looks after a great number of people myself included,apostle paul received a fellow apostle by the name of junia[woman] paul and junia was in prison together,then there is a myth of the woman who was pope[or was it a myth ?]the catholic church a spent many years trying to destroy any evidence,in 1276 after ordering a thorough search of papel records,pope john XX, changed his title to john XX1, in official recognition of joans reign as pope john V111,joans story was in the official church guidbook to rome used by pilgrims for over 300 years,in the 1413 trial of jan hus for heresy he said in his defence,many times have popes fallen into sin and error, for instance when joan was elected pope ,who was a woman,not one of the 28 cardinals,four patriarchs,30 metroplitians,208 bishops and 440 theolgian present charged him with lying or blaspheming,the there is the so called ;chair exam ;that was put into place after joans death and used for 600 years
I doubt that to be honest.i can give you many more instances of female priests,0 -
in the catacomes of tropea there is a stone that says,sacred to her memory leta the presbyter lived 40y 8m 9days for whom her husband set up this tomb,but if that isent enough for you ,check out giorgo otranto he is the man who has access to all the old papel papers,one case mentioned[6th century] is [511] by three bishops of gaul,they sent a epistle to the breton priests and threatened them with banishment ,if they continue to allow woman to conduct mass0
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in the catacomes of tropea there is a stone that says,sacred to her memory leta the presbyter lived 40y 8m 9days for whom her husband set up this tomb,but if that isent enough for you
Did you missed this bit from my previous post:πρεσβυτιδας means neither priest nor bishop. It simply means elder (there were different words for bishop and priest) and you can find many other examples of female elders described similarly.
I hope you don't insist that in order to be an elder or a leader of a Christian community you have to be 70+ years old?check out giorgo otranto he is the man who has access to all the old papel papers,one case mentioned[6th century] is [511] by three bishops of gaul,they sent a epistle to the breton priests and threatened them with banishment ,if they continue to allow woman to conduct mass
Which would only support the view that the Church rejected the idea of female priest and strongly objected to the practices, be they facts or only rumours. As you see, they went as far as to female priesthood = excommunication.0 -
i know the catholic church practice of to day,but it wasent allways that way,woman priests in early christain years were not common but were accepted,giorgo otranto works in the vatican arcives as a translator and he has a lot of evidence of woman priesthood,so to just deny they did not exist is not true,but back to the point of this thread,my belief is that the church has to move into the 21st century to move forward,if it is to survive.Did you missed this bit from my previous post:
I hope you don't insist that in order to be an elder or a leader of a Christian community you have to be 70+ years old?
Which would only support the view that the Church rejected the idea of female priest and strongly objected to the practices, be they facts or only rumours. As you see, they went as far as to female priesthood = excommunication.0 -
i know the catholic church practice of to day,but it wasent allways that way,woman priests in early christain years were not common but were accepted
This thread has not seen any evidence so far.
Dr. Otranto arguments are not much different from yours. He can demonstrate no problem that women were ordained as deaconess, that some were addressed as prysbetera or even episcopa and that there were female priests among heretics -- all are well known facts even without the help of Dr Otranto's access to the top secret Vatican documents. But when it comes to female priesthood in the orthodox catholic Church Dr. Otranto has nothing but pure speculations.giorgo otranto works in the vatican arcives as a translator and he has a lot of evidence of woman priesthood
So far we only see it's not true to claim they did.so to just deny they did not exist is not true
I would not agree with that. There are many Churches where the role of priests is very close to the one in RCC (i.e. they have priests, not preacher/pastors/ministers/vicar), where they don't have female priesthood and where there is no shortage of priests and where entering examinations in seminaries are highly competitive.back to the point of this thread,my belief is that the church has to move into the 21st century to move forward,if it is to survive.
Also, putting aside the question of whether cannon permits female priesthood, starting ordaining ladies in RCC would do more damage then good. We all see how uneasy this issue was for Anglican community. In RCC it will be far worse; a spectacular schism would be just unavoidable.0 -
This is the answer that they found in France...
Tuesday, July 8, 2008New-style church being born in
France due to shortage of priests
Perhaps what is already happening in the French Catholic Church is
an indication of where Irish Catholicism is headed, writes David Rice .
IT HAS often been said that France has her crises before the rest of Europe -
whether it be the French Revolution itself, or the student revolt of 1968, or
the alienation of people from the churches.
There is one such crisis where France is ahead of Ireland, and that is in its
shortage of Roman Catholic priests. France is also ahead in its response to that
shortage. In essence the lay people have taken over the local church and run it
for themselves.
In one diocese in northern France there is only one priest to serve 27 parishes.
It means the priest has been reduced to the role of circuit rider who drops by
on rare occasions to offer a Mass and consecrate some hosts. For the rest of the
time the people run their church themselves. In 2001 the diocese of Nice had to
reduce its 265 parishes down to 47.
One of these, the recently created parish of Nôtre Dame de l'Espérance, runs
along a celebrated strip of the Mediterranean coast, with five churches. There
were five priests; now there is just one, who cannot cope on his own. Yet all
five village churches are flourishing.
The secret is that each church has an appointed lay person, called a relais
local , whose duty is to run both church and parish, and perform almost all
functions save uttering the words of consecration and administering those
sacraments only a priest is allowed to do.
A principal function of the relais is to conduct a Sunday Communion service in
the absence of the priest - for all practical purposes a Mass without the
consecration. There is frequently no priest at a funeral any more.
At the Église Sacré Coeur in Beaulieu, I attended one such funeral, conducted by
the relais locale for the church. She received the coffin. There were words of
welcome, the singing of hymns, a short eulogy of the deceased, readings from
scripture, a brief reflection by the relais , the lighting of candles beside the
coffin, a blessing of the coffin with holy water, and prayers for the deceased.
It lasted about half-an-hour. There was no Mass, as there was no priest. But
there wasn't a Communion service either.
This new de facto structure in the parish is not confined to relais locales .
Marie-Anne Hosley, an energetic Frenchwoman whose mother hails from Co Down, has
lately been appointed general manager of the parish with its five churches.
While her official title is économe , she assures me it is more about admin than
money.
Although unpaid herself, she manages a payroll of nine people, including
cleaners, organists and two parish secretaries.
Other lay people - men and women - are equally active in many of the former
roles of the priest - parish visitation, counselling, pre-marriage instruction,
attending the sick, bringing communion, chaplaincies to hospitals and retirement
homes and in some areas to scout and youth groups.
Also it is lay people who, almost exclusively, perform the crucial role of
imparting their faith.In the neighbouring diocese of Monaco, Bernadette
Keraudren gives many hours guiding catechumens - those who want to become
Christian or Catholic.
The catechumens go through about two years of guidance, all done by lay people.
None of this is stop-gap until better times come. This is for keeps, because
better times are not coming. Soon there won't be any priests at all. Or so few
that it simply won't count. So people here see a totally new church ministry
evolving, which will inevitably become more formalised.
But the dearth of priests means that the people will ultimately be left without
the sacraments and without the Eucharist, the centre of their faith. That is why
the relais , and all these other layfolk who are de facto running the church,
are asking, when will the Vatican wake up to the facts of life and allow or
recognise new ministries?
"Vatican Two talked about us all being priests," Hosley says. "The priesthood of
the laity. So maybe the church will soon have a new form of priest." That could
mean that, in one fell swoop, there would be women priests and married priests.
Many here believe that time is not far off.
David Rice, a former Dominican priest, is the author of six books
© 2008 The Irish Times
This article appears in the print edition of the Irish TimesADVERTISEMENT0 -
Heard on the news this morning that there will soon be only 1 priest per parish in Ireland.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1116/1224258922173.html
I was wondering from a practical point of view what will this mean, and what will it mean if the rate drops below 1. Will parishes have to be combined? And how many priests do you need to reasonably operate a parish. How large can a parish before it gets impossible to serve it with 1 or a handful of priests
I'm looking for a Catholic perspective on this, not a general Christian one. I know other Christian branches have no issue with things like house churches, but is this a valid option for Catholics?
Priests will be imported from abroad where necessary.0 -
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This is great, very encouraging.This is the answer that they found in France...
In essence the lay people have taken over the local church and run it
for themselves.
In one diocese in northern France there is only one priest to serve 27 parishes.
It means the priest has been reduced to the role of circuit rider who drops by
on rare occasions to offer a Mass and consecrate some hosts. For the rest of the
time the people run their church themselves.
But the dearth of priests means that the people will ultimately be left without
the sacraments and without the Eucharist, the centre of their faith. That is why
the relais , and all these other layfolk who are de facto running the church,
are asking, when will the Vatican wake up to the facts of life and allow or
recognise new ministries?
"Vatican Two talked about us all being priests," Hosley says. "The priesthood of
the laity. So maybe the church will soon have a new form of priest." That could
mean that, in one fell swoop, there would be women priests and married priests.
Many here believe that time is not far off.
David Rice, a former Dominican priest, is the author of six books
© 2008 The Irish Times
This article appears in the print edition of the Irish TimesADVERTISEMENT
Less great, but perhaps these thoughts from the faithful will encourage the church leaders to share the reasoning behind all these rules. The spirit of the law has been completely obscured in the Catholic church in many areas and we're left with rules that few of the faithful can justify.0 -
this may open a few minds,in 1994 the anglican church opened up doors to female priests,over 1000,woman applied to the priesthood,to-day 2009 one in five priests are female,no shortage of priests in the anglican church
If only this were true. Check your facts please.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6935618.ece0 -
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Does not follow, and it is not happening. Holy Mother Church does not follow such logic. That is why I challenged this.
Statements need to be based on fact.
One factor is that, outside eg Dublin, where this has been tried, not very successfully, as the placings were abandoned, many in Ireland will nto accept African priests.
A few Polish have been placed; and German/European priests will gain a hold.
But the Church here is IRISH and that would be a huge step. The hierarchy itself would not accept this either.
The French system may well avail because the operatives will be Irish.
There was in the summer a case where a lay man led Mass, using pre-consecrated Hosts, because the priest was away. It seems to have been accepted fine.
That is what other countries do; in the US, for example, Sisters are allowed to do that.
But Ireland is running out of Sisters too and refuses to accept help from non-Irish orders. Even the Franciscan Brothers of the Renewal are not finding life easy here.ShotgunPaddy wrote: »Yes they will. Reverse missionaries. Africa has a surplus of priests.0
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