What happens when there are not enough priests - Catholic spirited responses only

Zombrex

Heard on the news this morning that there will soon be only 1 priest per parish in Ireland.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1116/1224258922173.html

I was wondering from a practical point of view what will this mean, and what will it mean if the rate drops below 1. Will parishes have to be combined? And how many priests do you need to reasonably operate a parish. How large can a parish before it gets impossible to serve it with 1 or a handful of priests

I'm looking for a Catholic perspective on this, not a general Christian one. I know other Christian branches have no issue with things like house churches, but is this a valid option for Catholics?

prinz

Wicknight wrote: »

Will parishes have to be combined? And how many priests do you need to reasonably operate a parish. How large can a parish before it gets impossible to serve it with 1 or a handful of priests

This is already happening in rural areas. Only time before it spreads to more urban parts of the country. I heard there's a priest in west Cork covering four parishes, hopping in the car driving from one to another to say mass at like 9, 10.30, 11.30 etc. Probably not too difficult mass wise but it would be bound to take it's toll when it comes to dealing with the communities - visiting the old and sick, the schools, managing four churches etc. Plus I know a mid sized parish in Kildare that had no priest to take over as PP. The guy that's there now was brought over from Nigeria.

Turtwig

Well here's how Clare (Killaloe's diocese) is handling it.
Some of the smaller parishes have no dedicated priest and and only an assistant priest that is shared between them and another parish.
The larger parishes may have one dedicated priest and one or two assistant priests who may also serve with a smaller parishs.
Mass times are then set up so that at least one priest will always be available to assist a certain parish.

Ciaran500

What's an assistant priest? Are they qualified or are they volunteers?

Turtwig

Ciaran500 wrote: »

What's an assistant priest? Are they qualified or are they volunteers?

Qualified in every respect, they just may have multiple parishes to assist to, instead of being solely dedicated to one.
AFAIK.

smcgiff

Isn't Bishop Willie Walsh bringing up the possibility of the Priest that dare not say its name or should that be Priestess.

The priesthood is no longer seen as the social and financial prize it once was. From being the most respected person in the village to being a pariah, and attendances are down and subsequently takings.

However, there are genuine people out there that would like to be Catholic priests, however, some of them are married or female. I've no doubt the Catholic church will go down this route in time - probably not under the current Pope though.

getz

i think there is enough evidence in this modern world for nuns to take over many of the rolls that the priests do,soon there may not be any other choice,i may be wrong, but dident jesus did say to mary go out and preach ?

mdebets

The same is going to happen as it did in the past. Priests from aereas that have an oversupply are going to be sent to places that have an undersupply.
The only difference is that instead of sending European priests to Afria and Latin America, they are now going to send priests from Africa and Latin America to Europe.

BrianCalgary

mdebets wrote: »

The same is going to happen as it did in the past. Priests from aereas that have an oversupply are going to be sent to places that have an undersupply.
The only difference is that instead of sending European priests to Afria and Latin America, they are now going to send priests from Africa and Latin America to Europe.

We have been in this situation for many years now. Priests in Calgary tend to be from somewhere else. Phillipines, Eastern Europe, Africa.

We are not at th epoint yet, within the city anway, where a priest has a few parshes. I also see the Catholic church is accepting disenfranchised Anglican ministers, who are married, into the fold.

MrPudding

This is happening in my old parish in Northern Ireland. The priest has to cover something like four parishes. Back when I were a lad there was the parish priest and two curits(sp?) for St John's alone. There was a Saturday night mass and three masses on Sunday morning. Now there is only the Saturday night and one on Sunday.

Quite a decline, realistically only over the last 10 years or so.

MrP

Plowman

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RossFixxxed

I hope this doesn't annoy people, but maybe it's time to change or modernise it. I'm not a catholic other than nominally, but I found it was like reciting the ABC, I knew the words but nothing really about what I was saying. It didn't really mean anything and I always found it chronically boring. I'm not suggesting lazer lights, and blaring music. But times have a change a lot and Catholocism remains quite dogmatic and heavy. I also found more and more I dont' want to be made feel guilty for all my sins. I'm living as best I can.

It's hard to respect some priests also. Not just in light of the horrors they have comitted (only SOME) but in terms of how backwards some of them are and out of touch. I mean if I have marital problems, I'm not gonna ask a priest, I'm going to ask someone with life experience.

I think the church needs to get out there and become relevant again.

Once again: not lazers and bikini clad lady priests, but something classy and modern, more life to the Bible and the stories etc in there. There's a lot of excitement in the book to be fair.

Also, it's another debate, but if the Priest was a local guy with a family etc I'd be WAY more inclined to go to him tbh. Or the gay priest that has experience if that was someting I needed help with, or a woman or whoever.

Sam Vimes

RossFixxxed wrote: »

bikini clad lady priests

Now that would get even me back at mass, were it not for my tendency to burst into flames whenever I set foot on church grounds :pac:

Maguined

I could be completely wrong but I thought I heard a rumour that the Vatican are seriously looking into allowing Catholic priests to marry due to this decline as they feel it will increase applications as well as encourage more fringe catholics into attending mass more regularly.

Again i will emphasise this is some scant rumour i heard on some radio show a while ago so am not proposing it as serious fact.

postcynical

Wicknight wrote: »

I was wondering from a practical point of view what will this mean, and what will it mean if the rate drops below 1. Will parishes have to be combined? And how many priests do you need to reasonably operate a parish. How large can a parish before it gets impossible to serve it with 1 or a handful of priests

As it's mainly a question of church organisation and administration I've very little interest in the matter. I think we're blessed to have so many priests and I don't think we'll be so lucky in the future.

I'm looking for a Catholic perspective on this, not a general Christian one. I know other Christian branches have no issue with things like house churches, but is this a valid option for Catholics?

A house Mass or an underground Mass is the most spiritually potent form of celebration that I've encountered. I hope this practice returns and this is one of the main reasons I'm a strong secularist. I think one of PDN's nuggets of wisdom here was "Christianity works best as a counter-cultural movement".

BrianCalgary

Maguined wrote: »

I could be completely wrong but I thought I heard a rumour that the Vatican are seriously looking into allowing Catholic priests to marry due to this decline as they feel it will increase applications as well as encourage more fringe catholics into attending mass more regularly.

Again i will emphasise this is some scant rumour i heard on some radio show a while ago so am not proposing it as serious fact.

That would be nice to see. I would even consider becominga priest if I could keep my wife.

postcynical

RossFixxxed wrote: »

I hope this doesn't annoy people, but maybe it's time to change or modernise it. I'm not a catholic other than nominally, but I found it was like reciting the ABC, I knew the words but nothing really about what I was saying. It didn't really mean anything and I always found it chronically boring. I'm not suggesting lazer lights, and blaring music. But times have a change a lot and Catholocism remains quite dogmatic and heavy.

Nice post, hope you don't mind if it's discussed?

I also found more and more I dont' want to be made feel guilty for all my sins. I'm living as best I can.

I don't like this either but the only way to trust God is to realise how much we need Him. While the constant nagging can be tiresome, it is the truth. No matter how good we are on our own, we are nothing without Him. This is one of those mysteries of faith, which is obvious and positive when you believe but obscure and negative when you don't.

It's hard to respect some priests also. Not just in light of the horrors they have comitted (only SOME) but in terms of how backwards some of them are and out of touch. I mean if I have marital problems, I'm not gonna ask a priest, I'm going to ask someone with life experience.

Agree totally. There are all sorts out there though and some of the priests had "real" lives before conversion too!

I think the church needs to get out there and become relevant again.

Faith and works:D Agree totally.

Once again: not lazers and bikini clad lady priests, but something classy and modern, more life to the Bible and the stories etc in there. There's a lot of excitement in the book to be fair.

While there are some good yarns in the Bible, it true message draws its own. Despite boring homilies or monotone voices doing the readings, the scriptures never fail to strike a chord in my heart, and I understand it's the same for others. Maybe it just appeals to boring folk:)

Also, it's another debate, but if the Priest was a local guy with a family etc I'd be WAY more inclined to go to him tbh. Or the gay priest that has experience if that was someting I needed help with, or a woman or whoever.

That's your statement so I won't dispute it. However, apart from serving the community, the priest's role is to draw people to God. If the local priest were married/a practicing gay and you went to him for help/advice/friendship do you think it would lead to a supernatural conversion in your heart? Or would it just re-enforce your secular world-view?

Also, the established Church in Britain and the Church of Ireland have gone down this route and lukewarm Christians have not come flocking back to this "modern" church. Maybe these modern-to-us practices have come and gone throughout the history of the church... Serious question: Would you consider popping down to your local CofI vicar?

Plowman

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patmartino

Allow priests to marry.
Allow women to be priests.

RossFixxxed

I'd be more inclined to talk to a CoI vicar if it was a relationship issue or similar as the guy is married and has experience. BUT as you say I don't think it would convert me to Christianity. However, in MY mind, if I am engagign with the church and joining in surely it all helps. I agree with the morals, I agree with much of the messages in the Bible... And community work would be great. We've lost community/parish type involvment. Half of us don't know our next door neighbours at this point.

Faith and action as you said... I'm the type that would prefer to paint a house than sit in a church. But again it won't convert me.

I don't have the answers, those are just a few things that occur to me. I know 'purists' wouldn't like the church changing, but at the end of the day surely it's God's message, and faith that counts... not the presentation? Of course that goes both ways, but the church has a very bad image as of late with many people. I'm not agressively against the church but it wouln't be something I'd want to be a part of at the moment (but that's the people not the religion).

Red Alert

Deacons are already used a fair bit in the UK, and they can marry. They can do everything except celebrate Mass, this includes a weekday communion service in some parishes.

Ireland could end up being re-evangelized by the african priests: their enthusiasm, love of music and being unaffected by the general societal guilt that came from the 1950's may end up being a breath of fresh air.

The former PP of my local church would often say that "the only way to be perfect is to change often" - a phrase with the institutional catholic church should listen more closely to.

Slav

It's an interesting phenomena that (from my experience) the loudest calls to reform this or that in the RCC are coming from outside of the Church.

The practicing Catholics (i.e. regular confession and communion) I ever met would at best suggest that relaxing on celibate might be an option in not so near future. Which I think is wholly understandable as addressing a certain problem by allowing priest to marry can easily introduce another -- a potential schism. I would hate to be a Roman Pope!

panda100

Peronsally I think liberalising the rules of the RC such as allowing women to become priests would be very hypocritical of the church.
The vatican and Popes have made it quite clear that they believe the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God's plan for the church. Now women are only useful when there arent enough men to do the job? Its like womens entry into the workforce in coincidence with the second world war all over again.

Im a big believer in quality over quantity. As we have seen in years gone by, it would be a lot more harmful for the church to relax rules to get as many people into the priesthood as possible. It would be much better for the RC church in Ireland to have 50 priests with a true,deep vocation than hundreds who dont have a true calling.

getz

panda100 wrote: »

Peronsally I think liberalising the rules of the RC such as allowing women to become priests would be very hypocritical of the church.
The vatican and Popes have made it quite clear that they believe the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God's plan for the church. Now women are only useful when there arent enough men to do the job? Its like womens entry into the workforce in coincidence with the second world war all over again.

Im a big believer in quality over quantity. As we have seen in years gone by, it would be a lot more harmful for the church to relax rules to get as many people into the priesthood as possible. It would be much better for the RC church in Ireland to have 50 priests with a true,deep vocation than hundreds who dont have a true calling.

the catholic church needs to go back to its roots,we know for certain that early christians could marry,woman could teach christianity, and up until the 12th century priests could contract valid marriages,we know from the scriptures that peter had a wife,[matthew 8;14 timothy 3;2,4;13 and corinthians 9;5,]without change i am sorry to say the church will die

Slav

getz wrote: »

the catholic church needs to go back to its roots,we know for certain that early christians could marry,woman could teach christianity, and up until the 12th century priests could contract valid marriages,we know from the scriptures that peter had a wife,[matthew 8;14 timothy 3;2,4;13 and corinthians 9;5,]without change i am sorry to say the church will die

Catholic woman can still teach Christianity. Early Christian Church never had female priests or bishops.

patmartino

Maguined wrote: »

I could be completely wrong but I thought I heard a rumour that the Vatican are seriously looking into allowing Catholic priests to marry due to this decline as they feel it will increase applications as well as encourage more fringe catholics into attending mass more regularly.

Again i will emphasise this is some scant rumour i heard on some radio show a while ago so am not proposing it as serious fact.

The Vatican will do anything to survive, that is why they have lasted this long

BrianCalgary

patmartino wrote: »

The Vatican will do anything to survive, that is why they have lasted this long

Wheres the evidence to show that they will do anything to survive?

Turtwig

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Wheres the evidence to show that they will do anything to survive?

Dan Brown .

BrianCalgary

Malty_T wrote: »

Dan Brown .

:D Thanks for the chuckle.

itsonlywords

Wicknight wrote: »

Heard on the news this morning that there will soon be only 1 priest per parish in Ireland.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1116/1224258922173.html

I was wondering from a practical point of view what will this mean, and what will it mean if the rate drops below 1. Will parishes have to be combined? And how many priests do you need to reasonably operate a parish. How large can a parish before it gets impossible to serve it with 1 or a handful of priests

I'm looking for a Catholic perspective on this, not a general Christian one. I know other Christian branches have no issue with things like house churches, but is this a valid option for Catholics?

Well if that helps to keep kids safe then 1 is even too many. What good do they do? I have a deep hatred now for the catlick church now after all the suffering they inflicted on innocent kids and then they defended thge scums who abused and neglected the kids further. They fought every step of the way to stop those poor innocents from getting their day in court. I met one of those priests lately and I was almost ready to kill him had my partner not stopped me. That scum bstrd is free and his victims are locked in a mental prison forever. I no longer believe in ficticious hells and heavens but if there concieveably could be a hell, all abuser priests,bishops, archbishops brothers nuns and lay person perverts who worked with them, will go there and hopefully there will be enough shillings for the gas

getz

Slav wrote: »

Catholic woman can still teach Christianity. Early Christian Church never had female priests or bishops.

i think slav you have missread me,the early catholic [universal] church 32 CE,had many branches,abegensians,cathers,arians,anababtists,and coptics,most was distroyed by the later 312CE roman catholic church,many of these had woman teachers,there is a early christian church that has been just found in israel ,that has stones that commemorate five different femail teachers,even today the anglican church is called[reformed catholic] has femail priests, in my eyes there is no religious christian reason for priests to not marry or femails not to be priests

gramlab

Two questions for christians.

Do you think you would feel uncomfortable/less comnfortable in any way speaking to a female priest. Not looking for sexist comments here, but basing the question on the fact that people, especially the elderly would be traditionally used to talking their male priest.


If priests were allowed to marry do you think that their relationship with their parishioners would suffer i.e. they have their own family to concentrate on, his family may know or learn of your problems/issues, loss of "private" relationship with priest etc

getz

gramlab wrote: »

Two questions for christians.

Do you think you would feel uncomfortable/less comnfortable in any way speaking to a female priest. Not looking for sexist comments here, but basing the question on the fact that people, especially the elderly would be traditionally used to talking their male priest.


If priests were allowed to marry do you think that their relationship with their parishioners would suffer i.e. they have their own family to concentrate on, his family may know or learn of your problems/issues, loss of "private" relationship with priest etc

if you ask most anglicans in england,they will tell you that it makes their church priests more approachable,at the end of the day its not if, its when,

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

getz

this may open a few minds,in 1994 the anglican church opened up doors to female priests,over 1000,woman applied to the priesthood,to-day 2009 one in five priests are female,no shortage of priests in the anglican church

Red Alert

I'd feel quite comfortable talking to a female priest. The real question (maybe for another thread) is will male or female priests experience prejudice when they try dating people? :pac:

I know a family who are from an american Christian church, the dad is the pastor. Their children all seemed as normal and carefree as anyone else growing up, so I'm not sure being the priest's son or daughter would be that big a problem. They are very open with their family home - and regularly have people from their church over - so in that respect the family may make it more inviting.

The only place it may get tricky is if the priest's partner or children have friends who come to him/her for help or counselling.

patmartino

getz wrote: »

if you ask most anglicans in england,they will tell you that it makes their church priests more approachable,at the end of the day its not if, its when,

exactly, RC will have women priests and married priest in the next 10 years.

Fanny Cradock

gramlab wrote: »

Two questions for christians.

Do you think you would feel uncomfortable/less comnfortable in any way speaking to a female priest. Not looking for sexist comments here, but basing the question on the fact that people, especially the elderly would be traditionally used to talking their male priest.


If priests were allowed to marry do you think that their relationship with their parishioners would suffer i.e. they have their own family to concentrate on, his family may know or learn of your problems/issues, loss of "private" relationship with priest etc

No and no.

Zombrex

gramlab wrote: »

Two questions for christians.

If it is ok with everyone can we keep this to Catholics, or at least the Catholic position. It is pretty well established that some other Christian denominations don't have issues with say female priests or priests marrying, so it wouldn't be an issue for Christians in general.

gramlab

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

No and no.

Brief, but perfectly answered;)

Wicknight wrote: »

If it is ok with everyone can we keep this to Catholics, or at least the Catholic position. It is pretty well established that some other Christian denominations don't have issues with say female priests or priests marrying, so it wouldn't be an issue for Christians in general.

Meant to say catholic - gotta remember check before I submit.


My mother would consider herself a practicing catholic, and I know from a previous conversation that she would not like the idea of confiding in a female priest. In her words, "it just wouldn't feel right"

However she would be all for married priests

panda100

getz wrote: »

this may open a few minds,in 1994 the anglican church opened up doors to female priests,over 1000,woman applied to the priesthood,to-day 2009 one in five priests are female,no shortage of priests in the anglican church

AS I previously stated I think it would be abhorrent If the RC church decided to allow women into the priesthood now just because there isn't enough men to do the job.
One of the reasons I left the RC church was there inconsistent approach to their views be that original sin,limbo,womens role in the church etc etc. Nothing is more shallow then an organisation that continually changes its beliefs to appear popular to the masses.

I think the best thing the RC church can do is work with what they have. They will just have to reorganise and reshuffle their recourses.

getz

panda100 wrote: »

AS I previously stated I think it would be abhorrent If the RC church decided to allow women into the priesthood now just because there isn't enough men to do the job.
One of the reasons I left the RC church was there inconsistent approach to their views be that original sin,limbo,womens role in the church etc etc. Nothing is more shallow then an organisation that continually changes its beliefs to appear popular to the masses.

I think the best thing the RC church can do is work with what they have. They will just have to reorganise and reshuffle their recourses.

i can understand why you think that,but isent the whole point of christianity to convert people,and help others to lead a christain life ? did not jesus tell all his followers to go out and spread the word ? and that included mary magdalene [a woman] so why is the catholic church againt woman priests ?

panda100

getz wrote: »

i can understand why you think that,but isent the whole point of christianity to convert people,and help others to lead a christain life ? did not jesus tell all his followers to go out and spread the word ? and that included mary magdalene [a woman] so why is the catholic church againt woman priests ?

I think there has been previous threads on women priests that would delve in a lot more deeper than my own vague understandings of the situation.

Pope John Paul II outlined the arguments in a document called "Ordinatio Sacerdotalis", which is worthy a look as it exposes how feeble the arguments against women priests actually are.

"Priestly ordination, which hands on the office entrusted by Christ to his Apostles of teaching, sanctifying and governing the faithful, has in the Catholic Church from the beginning always been reserved to men alone. This tradition has also been faithfully maintained by the Oriental Churches.

When the question of the ordination of women arose in the Anglican Communion, Pope Paul VI, out of fidelity to his office of safeguarding the Apostolic Tradition, and also with a view to removing a new obstacle placed in the way of Christian unity, reminded Anglicans of the position of the Catholic Church: "She holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God's plan for his Church."(1)


As far as Mary Magddelene is concerend the church insits that since Jesus did not assign her a paticular role as a disciple, it was then Gods clear intention to have just men as priests:

Furthermore, the fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Mother of the Church, received neither the mission proper to the Apostles nor the ministerial priesthood clearly shows that the non-admission of women to priestly ordination cannot mean that women are of lesser dignity, nor can it be construed as discrimination against them. Rather, it is to be seen as the faithful observance of a plan to be ascribed to the wisdom of the Lord of the universe.
The presence and the role of women in the life and mission of the Church, although not linked to the ministerial priesthood, remain absolutely necessary and irreplaceable. As the Declaration Inter Insigniores points out, "the Church desires that Christian women should become fully aware of the greatness of their mission: today their role is of capital importance both for the renewal and humanization of society and for the rediscovery by believers of the true face of the Church."(10)

Slav

getz wrote: »

i think slav you have missread me

I don't think I have.

,the early catholic [universal] church 32 CE,had many branches,abegensians,cathers,arians,anababtists,and coptics,most was distroyed by the later 312CE roman catholic church

Believe me, you are seriously overestimating the significance of the Roman cathedra in the 4th century! Even southern Italy was not under the Roman rule for many centuries (actually for more then a thousand years).

many of these had woman teachers,there is a early christian church that has been just found in israel ,that has stones that commemorate five different femail teachers

Why go back to the early church while there are female teaches of Christianity in RCC? E.g Teresa Avila who is venerated as the Doctor of the Church.

In Orthodox Church there are saints who are venerated as "equal to the apostles" (ισαποστολος) and there are many females among them (I think at least one third). For example, St Nino for Georgians is like St Patrick for Irish although St Nino, unlike her Irish colleague, was not a bishop or a priest.

even today the anglican church is called[reformed catholic] has femail priests, in my eyes there is no religious christian reason for priests to not marry or femails not to be priests

I think you are missing the point that preacher != priest in RCC.

Also you would not find any records, in any branch of Christianity, of female bishops or priests (not teachers!) up until the 20th century.

getz

gospel of thomas,quote jesus loved her more than the OTHER disciples ,further more, she was his beloved had been entrusted with more knowledge and teachings and had a superior vision,.in the early christian era her status was that as a opostle,in the years after jesus death rivaled even that of peter.peter said to mary we know that the savior loved you more than other woman[john11;5 luke 10;35-42] mary answered and said ;what is hidden from you i will impart to you; the later is ironic that the papacy based its authority on a linage from peter as the first person to witness the risen christ ,the question we should be asking is have we been wrong in banning woman in the first place as priests ?

jenzz

I dont really seeing the church itself being too concerned about this. This is our scenario. We only have one priest in our parish & 3 schools for communion. Each child making their communion may only bring 3 people. Ok so mum & dad naturally but what about the God parents who in baptism agreed to guide this child through religion? As a single parent I was very rudely told by the nun in charge she expected my family to be represented as a whole at mass. I was very dissappointed by her in saying this infront of a 7 year old.
We decided to try find a solution to the church being over croweded & When this was questioned they explained only 1 mass was being done for over 100 communion children so need to cram everyone in. We asked for 2 masses - point blank no. We asked for seperate days - point blank no. The priest would be too tired !!!! So a grandparent stood & asked would it be ok if his brother , a priest could do the second mass as he would love to assist us. Point blank NO. So if the church themselves are avoiding this issue of no priests where is the catholic faith going ?

getz

slav here is two for you,in rome a mural depics a woman,theodora episcopa [bishop theodora] also as recent as 1970 ludmila joeova was ordained a priest by a catholic bishop and served in czechoslovakia for 20 years,not all has been hidden from the masses

Slav

getz wrote: »

gospel of thomas,quote jesus loved her more than the OTHER disciples ,further more, she was his beloved had been entrusted with more knowledge and teachings and had a superior vision,.in the early christian era her status was that as a opostle,in the years after jesus death rivaled even that of peter.peter said to mary we know that the savior loved you more than other woman[john11;5 luke 10;35-42] mary answered and said ;what is hidden from you i will impart to you; the later is ironic that the papacy based its authority on a linage from peter as the first person to witness the risen christ

Gospel of Thomas does not have much weigh in Christianity forum in general and in Catholic spirited thread in particular. Anyway, I don't understand why are you trying to walk sideways with Gospel of Thomas and Mary Magdalene when you have an example of Virgin Mary who is venerated by Catholics above all saints and angels?

getz wrote: »

the question we should be asking is have we been wrong in banning woman in the first place as priests ?

The reason why there were no female priests in the early Church is because the role of the priest/bishop was very symbolic as he is supposed to act in persona christi. Should God decided to incarnate as a female we would have the opposite situation in RCC: female priesthood only.

getz wrote: »

in rome a mural depics a woman,theodora episcopa [bishop theodora]

Or (which is more likely) "bishops wife Theodora". Certainly not enough evidence to have her counted as a female bishop.

getz wrote: »

also as recent as 1970 ludmila joeova was ordained a priest by a catholic bishop and served in czechoslovakia for 20 years,not all has been hidden from the masses

As for Ms Javorova, it's the 20th century (and as far as I know she is not considered as a priest by the RCC authorities; it's basically her own claim without much evidence).

getz

ludmila javorova,was ordained a roman catholic priest in the late night hours dec 28 1970 by bishop felix maria davidek,in the presence of his brother leo,[ proved witness] more on woman priesthood,epigraphic evidence exists of woman bishops untill a least the 9th century the church gave woman the full sacramental ordination of deacons,woman priests existed in the west during the 4th and 5th centuries according to literary evidence,and according to epigraphic evidence,there is a burial site on the greek island thera, there is a epitaph for epikas named priest,she was a woman priest in the 3rd or 4th century,romans 16;1-16;7 i command to you our sister phoebe a deaconess of the church at cenchrens,give her in union with the lord a welcome worthy of saints and help her any time ,she looks after a great number of people myself included,apostle paul received a fellow apostle by the name of junia[woman] paul and junia was in prison together,then there is a myth of the woman who was pope[or was it a myth ?]the catholic church a spent many years trying to destroy any evidence,in 1276 after ordering a thorough search of papel records,pope john XX, changed his title to john XX1, in official recognition of joans reign as pope john V111,joans story was in the official church guidbook to rome used by pilgrims for over 300 years,in the 1413 trial of jan hus for heresy he said in his defence,many times have popes fallen into sin and error, for instance when joan was elected pope ,who was a woman,not one of the 28 cardinals,four patriarchs,30 metroplitians,208 bishops and 440 theolgian present charged him with lying or blaspheming,the there is the so called ;chair exam ;that was put into place after joans death and used for 600 years,i can give you many more instances of female priests,

Slav

getz wrote: »

ludmila javorova,was ordained a roman catholic priest in the late night hours dec 28 1970 by bishop felix maria davidek,in the presence of his brother leo,[ proved witness]

As I said it's the 20th century and it's even not recognised by the RCC. Why we discussing her at all?

more on woman priesthood,epigraphic evidence exists of woman bishops untill a least the 9th century the church gave woman the full sacramental ordination of deacons,woman priests existed in the west during the 4th and 5th centuries according to literary evidence,and according to epigraphic evidence,there is a burial site on the greek island thera, there is a epitaph for epikas named priest,she was a woman priest in the 3rd or 4th century,romans 16;1-16;7 i command to you our sister phoebe a deaconess of the church at cenchrens,give her in union with the lord a welcome worthy of saints and help her any time ,she looks after a great number of people myself included,apostle paul received a fellow apostle by the name of junia[woman] paul and junia was in prison together,then there is a myth of the woman who was pope[or was it a myth ?]the catholic church a spent many years trying to destroy any evidence,in 1276 after ordering a thorough search of papel records,pope john XX, changed his title to john XX1, in official recognition of joans reign as pope john V111,joans story was in the official church guidbook to rome used by pilgrims for over 300 years,in the 1413 trial of jan hus for heresy he said in his defence,many times have popes fallen into sin and error, for instance when joan was elected pope ,who was a woman,not one of the 28 cardinals,four patriarchs,30 metroplitians,208 bishops and 440 theolgian present charged him with lying or blaspheming,the there is the so called ;chair exam ;that was put into place after joans death and used for 600 years

One small correction: in case of the Thera tomb πρεσβυτιδας means neither priest nor bishop. It simply means elder (there were different words for bishop and priest) and you can find many other examples of female elders described similarly. Apart from that, everything else above looks like a very good mix of female deacons and female apostles as well as myths and conspiracy theories but it's not clear for me what does it all have in common with female priests?

i can give you many more instances of female priests,

I doubt that to be honest.

getz

in the catacomes of tropea there is a stone that says,sacred to her memory leta the presbyter lived 40y 8m 9days for whom her husband set up this tomb,but if that isent enough for you ,check out giorgo otranto he is the man who has access to all the old papel papers,one case mentioned[6th century] is [511] by three bishops of gaul,they sent a epistle to the breton priests and threatened them with banishment ,if they continue to allow woman to conduct mass