What happens when there are not enough priests - Catholic spirited responses only

Zombrex

Heard on the news this morning that there will soon be only 1 priest per parish in Ireland.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1116/1224258922173.html

I was wondering from a practical point of view what will this mean, and what will it mean if the rate drops below 1. Will parishes have to be combined? And how many priests do you need to reasonably operate a parish. How large can a parish before it gets impossible to serve it with 1 or a handful of priests

I'm looking for a Catholic perspective on this, not a general Christian one. I know other Christian branches have no issue with things like house churches, but is this a valid option for Catholics?

prinz

Wicknight wrote: »

Will parishes have to be combined? And how many priests do you need to reasonably operate a parish. How large can a parish before it gets impossible to serve it with 1 or a handful of priests

This is already happening in rural areas. Only time before it spreads to more urban parts of the country. I heard there's a priest in west Cork covering four parishes, hopping in the car driving from one to another to say mass at like 9, 10.30, 11.30 etc. Probably not too difficult mass wise but it would be bound to take it's toll when it comes to dealing with the communities - visiting the old and sick, the schools, managing four churches etc. Plus I know a mid sized parish in Kildare that had no priest to take over as PP. The guy that's there now was brought over from Nigeria.

Turtwig

Well here's how Clare (Killaloe's diocese) is handling it.
Some of the smaller parishes have no dedicated priest and and only an assistant priest that is shared between them and another parish.
The larger parishes may have one dedicated priest and one or two assistant priests who may also serve with a smaller parishs.
Mass times are then set up so that at least one priest will always be available to assist a certain parish.

Ciaran500

What's an assistant priest? Are they qualified or are they volunteers?

Turtwig

Ciaran500 wrote: »

What's an assistant priest? Are they qualified or are they volunteers?

Qualified in every respect, they just may have multiple parishes to assist to, instead of being solely dedicated to one.
AFAIK.

smcgiff

Isn't Bishop Willie Walsh bringing up the possibility of the Priest that dare not say its name or should that be Priestess.

The priesthood is no longer seen as the social and financial prize it once was. From being the most respected person in the village to being a pariah, and attendances are down and subsequently takings.

However, there are genuine people out there that would like to be Catholic priests, however, some of them are married or female. I've no doubt the Catholic church will go down this route in time - probably not under the current Pope though.

getz

i think there is enough evidence in this modern world for nuns to take over many of the rolls that the priests do,soon there may not be any other choice,i may be wrong, but dident jesus did say to mary go out and preach ?

mdebets

The same is going to happen as it did in the past. Priests from aereas that have an oversupply are going to be sent to places that have an undersupply.
The only difference is that instead of sending European priests to Afria and Latin America, they are now going to send priests from Africa and Latin America to Europe.

BrianCalgary

mdebets wrote: »

The same is going to happen as it did in the past. Priests from aereas that have an oversupply are going to be sent to places that have an undersupply.
The only difference is that instead of sending European priests to Afria and Latin America, they are now going to send priests from Africa and Latin America to Europe.

We have been in this situation for many years now. Priests in Calgary tend to be from somewhere else. Phillipines, Eastern Europe, Africa.

We are not at th epoint yet, within the city anway, where a priest has a few parshes. I also see the Catholic church is accepting disenfranchised Anglican ministers, who are married, into the fold.

MrPudding

This is happening in my old parish in Northern Ireland. The priest has to cover something like four parishes. Back when I were a lad there was the parish priest and two curits(sp?) for St John's alone. There was a Saturday night mass and three masses on Sunday morning. Now there is only the Saturday night and one on Sunday.

Quite a decline, realistically only over the last 10 years or so.

MrP

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

RossFixxxed

I hope this doesn't annoy people, but maybe it's time to change or modernise it. I'm not a catholic other than nominally, but I found it was like reciting the ABC, I knew the words but nothing really about what I was saying. It didn't really mean anything and I always found it chronically boring. I'm not suggesting lazer lights, and blaring music. But times have a change a lot and Catholocism remains quite dogmatic and heavy. I also found more and more I dont' want to be made feel guilty for all my sins. I'm living as best I can.

It's hard to respect some priests also. Not just in light of the horrors they have comitted (only SOME) but in terms of how backwards some of them are and out of touch. I mean if I have marital problems, I'm not gonna ask a priest, I'm going to ask someone with life experience.

I think the church needs to get out there and become relevant again.

Once again: not lazers and bikini clad lady priests, but something classy and modern, more life to the Bible and the stories etc in there. There's a lot of excitement in the book to be fair.

Also, it's another debate, but if the Priest was a local guy with a family etc I'd be WAY more inclined to go to him tbh. Or the gay priest that has experience if that was someting I needed help with, or a woman or whoever.

Sam Vimes

RossFixxxed wrote: »

bikini clad lady priests

Now that would get even me back at mass, were it not for my tendency to burst into flames whenever I set foot on church grounds :pac:

Maguined

I could be completely wrong but I thought I heard a rumour that the Vatican are seriously looking into allowing Catholic priests to marry due to this decline as they feel it will increase applications as well as encourage more fringe catholics into attending mass more regularly.

Again i will emphasise this is some scant rumour i heard on some radio show a while ago so am not proposing it as serious fact.

postcynical

Wicknight wrote: »

I was wondering from a practical point of view what will this mean, and what will it mean if the rate drops below 1. Will parishes have to be combined? And how many priests do you need to reasonably operate a parish. How large can a parish before it gets impossible to serve it with 1 or a handful of priests

As it's mainly a question of church organisation and administration I've very little interest in the matter. I think we're blessed to have so many priests and I don't think we'll be so lucky in the future.

I'm looking for a Catholic perspective on this, not a general Christian one. I know other Christian branches have no issue with things like house churches, but is this a valid option for Catholics?

A house Mass or an underground Mass is the most spiritually potent form of celebration that I've encountered. I hope this practice returns and this is one of the main reasons I'm a strong secularist. I think one of PDN's nuggets of wisdom here was "Christianity works best as a counter-cultural movement".

BrianCalgary

Maguined wrote: »

I could be completely wrong but I thought I heard a rumour that the Vatican are seriously looking into allowing Catholic priests to marry due to this decline as they feel it will increase applications as well as encourage more fringe catholics into attending mass more regularly.

Again i will emphasise this is some scant rumour i heard on some radio show a while ago so am not proposing it as serious fact.

That would be nice to see. I would even consider becominga priest if I could keep my wife.

postcynical

RossFixxxed wrote: »

I hope this doesn't annoy people, but maybe it's time to change or modernise it. I'm not a catholic other than nominally, but I found it was like reciting the ABC, I knew the words but nothing really about what I was saying. It didn't really mean anything and I always found it chronically boring. I'm not suggesting lazer lights, and blaring music. But times have a change a lot and Catholocism remains quite dogmatic and heavy.

Nice post, hope you don't mind if it's discussed?

I also found more and more I dont' want to be made feel guilty for all my sins. I'm living as best I can.

I don't like this either but the only way to trust God is to realise how much we need Him. While the constant nagging can be tiresome, it is the truth. No matter how good we are on our own, we are nothing without Him. This is one of those mysteries of faith, which is obvious and positive when you believe but obscure and negative when you don't.

It's hard to respect some priests also. Not just in light of the horrors they have comitted (only SOME) but in terms of how backwards some of them are and out of touch. I mean if I have marital problems, I'm not gonna ask a priest, I'm going to ask someone with life experience.

Agree totally. There are all sorts out there though and some of the priests had "real" lives before conversion too!

I think the church needs to get out there and become relevant again.

Faith and works:D Agree totally.

Once again: not lazers and bikini clad lady priests, but something classy and modern, more life to the Bible and the stories etc in there. There's a lot of excitement in the book to be fair.

While there are some good yarns in the Bible, it true message draws its own. Despite boring homilies or monotone voices doing the readings, the scriptures never fail to strike a chord in my heart, and I understand it's the same for others. Maybe it just appeals to boring folk:)

Also, it's another debate, but if the Priest was a local guy with a family etc I'd be WAY more inclined to go to him tbh. Or the gay priest that has experience if that was someting I needed help with, or a woman or whoever.

That's your statement so I won't dispute it. However, apart from serving the community, the priest's role is to draw people to God. If the local priest were married/a practicing gay and you went to him for help/advice/friendship do you think it would lead to a supernatural conversion in your heart? Or would it just re-enforce your secular world-view?

Also, the established Church in Britain and the Church of Ireland have gone down this route and lukewarm Christians have not come flocking back to this "modern" church. Maybe these modern-to-us practices have come and gone throughout the history of the church... Serious question: Would you consider popping down to your local CofI vicar?

Plowman

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patmartino

Allow priests to marry.
Allow women to be priests.

RossFixxxed

I'd be more inclined to talk to a CoI vicar if it was a relationship issue or similar as the guy is married and has experience. BUT as you say I don't think it would convert me to Christianity. However, in MY mind, if I am engagign with the church and joining in surely it all helps. I agree with the morals, I agree with much of the messages in the Bible... And community work would be great. We've lost community/parish type involvment. Half of us don't know our next door neighbours at this point.

Faith and action as you said... I'm the type that would prefer to paint a house than sit in a church. But again it won't convert me.

I don't have the answers, those are just a few things that occur to me. I know 'purists' wouldn't like the church changing, but at the end of the day surely it's God's message, and faith that counts... not the presentation? Of course that goes both ways, but the church has a very bad image as of late with many people. I'm not agressively against the church but it wouln't be something I'd want to be a part of at the moment (but that's the people not the religion).

Red Alert

Deacons are already used a fair bit in the UK, and they can marry. They can do everything except celebrate Mass, this includes a weekday communion service in some parishes.

Ireland could end up being re-evangelized by the african priests: their enthusiasm, love of music and being unaffected by the general societal guilt that came from the 1950's may end up being a breath of fresh air.

The former PP of my local church would often say that "the only way to be perfect is to change often" - a phrase with the institutional catholic church should listen more closely to.

Slav

It's an interesting phenomena that (from my experience) the loudest calls to reform this or that in the RCC are coming from outside of the Church.

The practicing Catholics (i.e. regular confession and communion) I ever met would at best suggest that relaxing on celibate might be an option in not so near future. Which I think is wholly understandable as addressing a certain problem by allowing priest to marry can easily introduce another -- a potential schism. I would hate to be a Roman Pope!

panda100

Peronsally I think liberalising the rules of the RC such as allowing women to become priests would be very hypocritical of the church.
The vatican and Popes have made it quite clear that they believe the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God's plan for the church. Now women are only useful when there arent enough men to do the job? Its like womens entry into the workforce in coincidence with the second world war all over again.

Im a big believer in quality over quantity. As we have seen in years gone by, it would be a lot more harmful for the church to relax rules to get as many people into the priesthood as possible. It would be much better for the RC church in Ireland to have 50 priests with a true,deep vocation than hundreds who dont have a true calling.

getz

panda100 wrote: »

Peronsally I think liberalising the rules of the RC such as allowing women to become priests would be very hypocritical of the church.
The vatican and Popes have made it quite clear that they believe the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God's plan for the church. Now women are only useful when there arent enough men to do the job? Its like womens entry into the workforce in coincidence with the second world war all over again.

Im a big believer in quality over quantity. As we have seen in years gone by, it would be a lot more harmful for the church to relax rules to get as many people into the priesthood as possible. It would be much better for the RC church in Ireland to have 50 priests with a true,deep vocation than hundreds who dont have a true calling.

the catholic church needs to go back to its roots,we know for certain that early christians could marry,woman could teach christianity, and up until the 12th century priests could contract valid marriages,we know from the scriptures that peter had a wife,[matthew 8;14 timothy 3;2,4;13 and corinthians 9;5,]without change i am sorry to say the church will die

Slav

getz wrote: »

the catholic church needs to go back to its roots,we know for certain that early christians could marry,woman could teach christianity, and up until the 12th century priests could contract valid marriages,we know from the scriptures that peter had a wife,[matthew 8;14 timothy 3;2,4;13 and corinthians 9;5,]without change i am sorry to say the church will die

Catholic woman can still teach Christianity. Early Christian Church never had female priests or bishops.

patmartino

Maguined wrote: »

I could be completely wrong but I thought I heard a rumour that the Vatican are seriously looking into allowing Catholic priests to marry due to this decline as they feel it will increase applications as well as encourage more fringe catholics into attending mass more regularly.

Again i will emphasise this is some scant rumour i heard on some radio show a while ago so am not proposing it as serious fact.

The Vatican will do anything to survive, that is why they have lasted this long

BrianCalgary

patmartino wrote: »

The Vatican will do anything to survive, that is why they have lasted this long

Wheres the evidence to show that they will do anything to survive?

Turtwig

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Wheres the evidence to show that they will do anything to survive?

Dan Brown .

BrianCalgary

Malty_T wrote: »

Dan Brown .

:D Thanks for the chuckle.

itsonlywords

Wicknight wrote: »

Heard on the news this morning that there will soon be only 1 priest per parish in Ireland.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1116/1224258922173.html

I was wondering from a practical point of view what will this mean, and what will it mean if the rate drops below 1. Will parishes have to be combined? And how many priests do you need to reasonably operate a parish. How large can a parish before it gets impossible to serve it with 1 or a handful of priests

I'm looking for a Catholic perspective on this, not a general Christian one. I know other Christian branches have no issue with things like house churches, but is this a valid option for Catholics?

Well if that helps to keep kids safe then 1 is even too many. What good do they do? I have a deep hatred now for the catlick church now after all the suffering they inflicted on innocent kids and then they defended thge scums who abused and neglected the kids further. They fought every step of the way to stop those poor innocents from getting their day in court. I met one of those priests lately and I was almost ready to kill him had my partner not stopped me. That scum bstrd is free and his victims are locked in a mental prison forever. I no longer believe in ficticious hells and heavens but if there concieveably could be a hell, all abuser priests,bishops, archbishops brothers nuns and lay person perverts who worked with them, will go there and hopefully there will be enough shillings for the gas

getz

Slav wrote: »

Catholic woman can still teach Christianity. Early Christian Church never had female priests or bishops.

i think slav you have missread me,the early catholic [universal] church 32 CE,had many branches,abegensians,cathers,arians,anababtists,and coptics,most was distroyed by the later 312CE roman catholic church,many of these had woman teachers,there is a early christian church that has been just found in israel ,that has stones that commemorate five different femail teachers,even today the anglican church is called[reformed catholic] has femail priests, in my eyes there is no religious christian reason for priests to not marry or femails not to be priests