This is nuts - could it happen in Ireland?

firefly08

http://www.gun-control-network.org/IN1109.htm

This is Surrey Today, 12 November 2009

Paul Clarke, a former soldier, has been found guilty of possessing a firearm. He handed a discarded sawn-off shotgun to the police in March 2009. He spotted a black bin liner at the bottom of his garden in Merstham, Surrey, and found the gun and two cartridges inside. He took the gun to a police station and was immediately arrested. The jury was told that his allegedly honest intent was irrelevant, possession of a firearm is a "strict liability" charge. There is no defence in law against it.

This happened in the UK. Fair enough, the jury was given no choice - but did the police have to charge him in the first place?

What would happen if you did that in Ireland?

johngalway

He found a sawn off shotgun wrapped in plastic bag, with two cartridges, thrown into his back garden. Brings it into the house and opens it up "Oh look, a shotgun. Well I'm off to watch X-factor now (or whatever)."

The next day.

He rings and asks the Chief Superintendent can he "pop in" and see him? He "pops in" to the Chief Supers office, produces a sawn off shotgun from a bag :eek: and lays it on the table.

The guy is an idiot. He should have been arrested for being that stupid he's a danger to himself.

YES, the law is bad in that case. But, he should have rang the cops ASAP in the first place. I would ask "What was he thinking?", but, he obviously wasn't.

Rovi

The full report is HERE.

On the face of it, it certainly looks pretty odd that he held the thing overnight before contacting the police.

meathstevie

Giving him the benefit of the doubt I'd say since he's used to handling firearms he probably just picked it up and brought it to the local police station. Taking the opposite angle, he had it for criminal purposes and got cold feet. As a result he made up the story and got rid of it.

Moral of the story : if you ever find something the likes of that ring 999 or 112explain to the call taker you want the Garda or PSNI depending on where you are and they'll deal with it. Don't ever handle it yourself because you could destroy evidence of a crime or even worse hurt yourself quite badly with an unsafe weapon.

firefly08

Fair enough, that is thick. I wasn't aware of those details. Here is a better link:

http://www.thisissurreytoday.co.uk/news/Ex-soldier-faces-jail-handing-gun/article-1509082-detail/article.html

If he took it into his house and kept it overnight he should expect to be charged.

But I wonder if it being in his garden counts as possession though? Was he guilty the moment some scumbag threw it in there?

Edit: sorry i only saw those other posts just now

rrpc

It does call into question the "strict liability" type charges that give you no defence. There's something creepily Orwellian about such charges.

Cass

Its only going to reinforce peoples attitude of don't get involved. If someone finds a firearm in the future they could possibly just ignore it, not report it and thank their stars they are not going to get involved with it.

Silly. Common sense just got tossed out the window.

meathstevie

firefly08 wrote: »

Fair enough, that is thick. I wasn't aware of those details. Here is a better link:

http://www.thisissurreytoday.co.uk/news/Ex-soldier-faces-jail-handing-gun/article-1509082-detail/article.html

If he took it into his house and kept it overnight he should expect to be charged.

But I wonder if it being in his garden counts as possession though? Was he guilty the moment some scumbag threw it in there?

Edit: sorry i only saw those other posts just now

As far as I know the concept possession is linked with the concept of immediate access. If you store it in the house overnight you would have immediate access in my books.

If the thing was thrown into the garden by someone else without the owner of the garden ever knowing the weapon was there you can hardly argue he had immediate access to it, never mind possession.

pedroeibar

There has to be more than meets the eye in this report. Someone is trying to make a point.

Assuming that the finder had no criminal past, it would be a very "nasty" policeman who would press charges against a citizen for handing in a firearm. The Crown Prosecutor's Office must also have an equally s#itty attitude.

As an ex-soldier he had firearms training, he knew what he was about from a safety perspective, and did the right thing by not leaving it there (agreed he should not have taken it out of the bag, fingerprints & stuff). Why should he ruin his evening by immediately going to the copshop? Imagine the headline "Gun from Soldier's Garden Kills Toddler" were it found and discharged by kids.


My guess he will get off. I also would change my solicitor.
P

meathstevie

pedroeibar wrote: »

There has to be more than meets the eye in this report. Someone is trying to make a point.

Assuming that the finder had no criminal past, it would be a very "nasty" policeman who would press charges against a citizen for handing in a firearm. The Crown Prosecutor's Office must also have an equally s#itty attitude.

As an ex-soldier he had firearms training, he knew what he was about from a safety perspective, and did the right thing by not leaving it there (agreed he should not have taken it out of the bag, fingerprints & stuff). Why should he ruin his evening by immediately going to the copshop? Imagine the headline "Gun from Soldier's Garden Kills Toddler" were it found and discharged by kids.


My guess he will get off. I also would change my solicitor.
P

The problem would be that he actually took control of the gun and kept it in his possession overnight. If he would have left it where it was, rang the polis and kept an eye on it until the patrol car arrived he wouldn't have had any bother if the gun couldn't be linked to him. I understand that if he's speaking the truth and was only preventing the gun from falling in the "wrong" hands he went about it in a very daft way. As a soldier he should also have been trained to know that touching abandoned weapons can be a risky thing to do.

marlin vs

How many people wouldn't look into a bag if they found it in their garden,keeping it overnight was a bit stupid, then again if he left it there and minded his own buissness he would have been more irresponsible, looks like you can't win.

Heckler

Soon as he saw what it was he should have called the police. No question. Keeping it overnight was silly. No matter that he is an ex-soldier. Most people posting on this forum have experience handling firearms and would know better than to keep a gun (that they found obviously) in their property either for an hour or overnight. Last I heard the police are a 24 hour service. That said, assuming that the rest of the story is correct, there is no way he should have been charged. I don't think he'll get jail time though.

.243

i just got this months sporting rifle and there is a piece where i guy found a bag in a childrens playground which contained a loaded revolver,money and a passport and was told when he rang the police "to bring it down to your local station"which was closed and then had to walk two miles to the next station with it while a gang of thugs tried to "buy the bag off him"

firefly08

As far as I know the concept possession is linked with the concept of immediate access. If you store it in the house overnight you would have immediate access in my books.

I'm not sure that applies in this case; here's what happened when he took it out of the bag in front of the policeman:

Mr Clarke was then arrested immediately for possession of a firearm at Reigate police station, and taken to the cells.

It seems they were not charging him because he kept it overnight. If he had taken it to the police immediately the result would have been the same (at least that's the way it seems from the newspaper article, which admittedly might not be accurate).

He could have called them without touching it and then waited at the scene, but then, as you say, they would have found him in a position where he had immediate access to it. If you had a stolen car in your driveway, you couldn't claim that you weren't in possession of it just because you were in the house. I know that's very pedantic, but apparently so are the police and the justice system over there!

Maybe, (sadly) the safest thing he could have done from his own point of view is to chuck it back over the wall where it came from and forget about it.

My guess he will get off

I hope so, but again, while you have to take these articles with a grain of salt, it does say he faces "at least five years in prison" (in the caption of the photo)

Grizzly 45

Seems to be a bit missing here.... WHY did he hold onto it overnight????
Was it because the Cop shop was closed??Or couldnt have been bothered to call over to collect it?Thats kind of an important piece thats missing.

Secondly,the Uk has become such an anal paranoid police state with anything related to firearms or the like ,you would be better off just ignoring it or as said just chucking it back over the wall,and sod the consequences if some kids find it and blow their heads off with it.Cynical and callous...But thats what you get if you are a" good citizen":rolleyes:
And to address the original point could it happen here...proably....as we get more and more UK"ised" on all things firearms,and more illegal guns start to show up on our streets,and dumped in intresting places.

Fortunatly our lot, despite their myriad faults with firearms ,still havent taken leave of Basic Common Sense in this kind of a situation.Somthing which apprently is lacking in the UK.
I mean,when were the Rangers or ERU called out last to arrest piegon shooters???

rowa

the british police are completely over the top when it comes to firearms , i was watching "road war's" or some similar rubbish on sky a while ago , one of the calls was to an "armed incident" ,turns out a teenage lad was out shooting wood pigeon with an air rifle , they decended on him with about 5 cars with armed police and a helicopter , he was wrestled to the ground and bundled into a police car , madness !

Cass

They have gone from comparing the UK to the US to doing what they do in the US. Thats why i hate it when people use the US or UK as a template on how to do things here.

firefly08

Thats why i hate it when people use the US or UK as a template on how to do things here.

As for the UK, I agree 100%.

Although possession of that firearm would have been illegal just about everywhere in the US (sawn off barrel), I seriously doubt he would have been charged in a lot of states, despite his foolishness.

It's tricky in this case though because many people have complained for so long about the Guards exercising their discretion when it comes to firearms licensing. But that same kind of discretion would have saved this poor fecker. I think they simply wouldn't have charged him. And even if they did, the judge would have exercised some discretion and let him off the hook. But when everyone is willing to just apply the rules clinically and then wash their hands of it, you get this kind of problem.

It reminds me of the phrase "I was just following orders" :eek:

Grizzly 45

firefly08 wrote: »

As for the UK, I agree 100%.

Although possession of that firearm would have been illegal just about everywhere in the US (sawn off barrel), I seriously doubt he would have been charged in a lot of states, despite his foolishness.

Not quite..it is legal to posses in some states[30 plus] a Short Barreled Shotgun or Rifle.Provided it is regd with BATFE and a 200 dollar transfer tax has been paid on it.Thats if you want to own and posses it.But finding a firearm like that in the US,would be no big deal if you handed it in to the nearest PD,or called the local beat cops to collect it.

It's tricky in this case though because many people have complained for so long about the Guards exercising their discretion when it comes to firearms licensing. But that same kind of discretion would have saved this poor fecker. I think they simply wouldn't have charged him. And even if they did, the judge would have exercised some discretion and let him off the hook. But when everyone is willing to just apply the rules clinically and then wash their hands of it, you get this kind of problem.

Ergo Basic common sense prevails here...somwhat!Considering that technically we could all be banged up here for unliscensed firearms possesion.However,it is known that the system is currently SNAFU so it would look daft arresting 200k plus gunowners[.Not that there would be anywhere to put us all either]..However in the UK,they would try it on no doubt..Which they did post Dunblane with some poor sods trying to sell their pistols if I remember rightly.

BornToKill

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

it would look daft arresting 200k plus gunowners[.Not that there would be anywhere to put us all either]

I would just remind you that about 180,000 of those still have valid extensions. Not everyone was in the first tranche of 31 October. Not everyone is in the same boat.

rowa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNNRwIKgweM

people comparing the gun situation in ireland/uk to america should look at the above and get real !

CJhaughey

The UK has gone completely nuts with regards to Firearms.
Didi you realise that they have classified hunting ammo ie expanding ammo as a special category that you need to have another category on your license for?
You can't export hunting ammo from the UK to here without some heavy paperwork.
I think a lot of it has to do with trying to remove all firearms from civilian ownership.
Regardless of any other points it is utter stupidity to prosecute anyone for what he did.
Walking into a station and handing in a sawnoff that you found would in most right thinking peoples heads be worthy of praise.
Instead you criminalise the guy? What message does that send out?
Don't trust the police.

Grizzly 45

rowa wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNNRwIKgweM

people comparing the gun situation in ireland/uk to america should look at the above and get real !

Yeah RIGHT!!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: You would want to read up a little bit Rowa...That has been debunked MONTHS ago as another CNN/US anti gun media myth!!:mad:
Sure they came from the uS,and were flogged off by corrupt Mexican POLICE OFFICALS to the drug gangs,and reported as "lost":mad:More US taxpayers money wasted courtsey of Obamas idiotic policies.

And what revelance has it got may I ask with Irish gunowners?????...Seeeing that our drug gangs would be in the penny ante leauge compared to those lads when it comes to firepower and ruthlessness.

foxshooter243

In regard to handing in firearms in the republic of Ireland ill relate this tale,
a lad in our area decided during the so called firearms amnesty recently to rid himself of a webley .22 air pistol, a webley hurricane I think it was.This air pistol had been brought back by a family memeber from england sometime in the distant past and had been lying in a drawer for a number of years.
Hearing of the amnesty the guy thought that it was an opportune time to rid himself of this ghastly pistola,seeing as he had no interest in it.
Off he strolls down to his nearby station to hand it in thinking"ill hand this in then pop over to the pub for a few quite pints", however the lads in the station soon put him right on that one-he was questioned for nearly 2 hours and made fill in a few forms about where this dreaded weapon of war originated and its history ..after leaving the station he had the patrol car at his home three days in succession asking more questions..he told me that it was the worst thing he had ever done and said he would never dream of ever handing anything into the garda again, tortured he was by questions for several days..amnesty my ass!:(

rowa

foxshooter243 wrote: »

In regard to handing in firearms in the republic of Ireland ill relate this tale,
a lad in our area decided during the so called firearms amnesty recently to rid himself of a webley .22 air pistol, a webley hurricane I think it was.This air pistol had been brought back by a family memeber from england sometime in the distant past and had been lying in a drawer for a number of years.
Hearing of the amnesty the guy thought that it was an opportune time to rid himself of this ghastly pistola,seeing as he had no interest in it.
Off he strolls down to his nearby station to hand it in thinking"ill hand this in then pop over to the pub for a few quite pints", however the lads in the station soon put him right on that one-he was questioned for nearly 2 hours and made fill in a few forms about where this dreaded weapon of war originated and its history ..after leaving the station he had the patrol car at his home three days in succession asking more questions..he told me that it was the worst thing he had ever done and said he would never dream of ever handing anything into the garda again, tortured he was by questions for several days..amnesty my ass!:(

i knew a fella who had the same problem , an air pistol brought back from england , he quietly dropped it off the back of a harbour when no one was looking one evening , no three days of questioning for him .

Cass

People are already of the "i'm not getting involved attitude/opinion". How many times have you seen a fight between lads, a couple whatever and thought "i'm not getting involved incase they turn on me". Well thats only in a situation where you have no obligation to get involved. Add the threat of prosecution and you will deter even the most community minded people from aiding the Gardai. You might aswell close down the crime line.

foxshooter243

rowa wrote: »

i knew a fella who had the same problem , an air pistol brought back from england , he quietly dropped it off the back of a harbour when no one was looking one evening , no three days of questioning for him .

That would be my system as well, off the end of the pier at high tide at midnight:D

Grizzly 45

[

quote=foxshooter243;63006008]In regard to handing in firearms in the republic of Ireland ill relate this tale

,

Which just goes to show that it wasnt an amnesty at all!!! Last time I looked up the word,it meant in dealing with weapons that you dropped off the stuff,no questions asked.Simply to get it out of circulation.Dont think many people will be doing that one again going by Fox's friend's experiance.
Yup,the good old dont get involved attitude...How long ago was it that a WPC in the UK was almost killed on a public road by a bunch of thugs who put the boot in for 20 mins while everyone else just walked on by or stood around??And then we wonder why in society there is a breakdown of trust between our police forces and the citzenery????:rolleyes::rolleyes:

meathstevie

firefly08 wrote: »

I'm not sure that applies in this case; here's what happened when he took it out of the bag in front of the policeman:



It seems they were not charging him because he kept it overnight. If he had taken it to the police immediately the result would have been the same (at least that's the way it seems from the newspaper article, which admittedly might not be accurate).

He could have called them without touching it and then waited at the scene, but then, as you say, they would have found him in a position where he had immediate access to it. If you had a stolen car in your driveway, you couldn't claim that you weren't in possession of it just because you were in the house. I know that's very pedantic, but apparently so are the police and the justice system over there!

Maybe, (sadly) the safest thing he could have done from his own point of view is to chuck it back over the wall where it came from and forget about it.



I hope so, but again, while you have to take these articles with a grain of salt, it does say he faces "at least five years in prison" (in the caption of the photo)

You're correct in saying that he would have had immediate access but he would have also informed the police the moment he knew the gun was there, which he should have made clear the moment he placed his 999 call. The bag wouldn't have possibly picked up low copy DNA from his house, his prints wouldn't have been on it and he wouldn't have had any explaining to do as to why the gun probably can be forensically linked to him now.

I get your example in relation to the car but think about what has happened in Dublin and Limerick a couple of times now. A pipebomb gets thrown at a house, the occupants ( whether they're gangsters themselves or not ) ring the Gardai and the Army bombdisposal folks render it harmless. Have any of these people been charged with the possession of a pipebomb ?

Malaga2

The whole thing is lunacy....the real issue here is the power of the State. In the UK (and in Ireland) the rights of the State take precenent over the people...it was never meant to be that way...but you get what you get...

This is probably the dumbest Police action ever...rather than thanking the guy for bringing it in they arrest and prosecute....thats what you get when the populace becomes sheep...no wonder the provos didnt want to turn in their gear...

kowloon

rowa wrote: »

the british police are completely over the top when it comes to firearms , i was watching "road war's" or some similar rubbish on sky a while ago , one of the calls was to an "armed incident" ,turns out a teenage lad was out shooting wood pigeon with an air rifle , they decended on him with about 5 cars with armed police and a helicopter , he was wrestled to the ground and bundled into a police car , madness !

A fellow near where I am living at the moment was on one of those programmes a while back. I can't remember what was actually in his car in the end but a member of the public reported it as a possible gun. A van full of armed police and some squad cars appeared at his house and have him outside lying down while they tear everything out of his car. If I remember, there wasn't much in the way of an apology either.

Grizzly 45

[

quote=Malaga2;63013532]The whole thing is lunacy....the real issue here is the power of the State. In the UK (and in Ireland) the rights of the State take precenent over the people...it was never meant to be that way...but you get what you get...

Wasn't it a certain Mr Benjamin Franklin who said." A people get the Govt they most assuredly deserve"?

BTW if anyone wants to read a real horror story of how the UK Met police will try and "fit up " and"Frame" gun owners or dealers.Read Mick Sheppards story on www.micksguns.com.
I remember this story on SKY[hite].It was the most disgusting pre trial by media ever.Of course not a word of apology from that organisation when he was aquitted either!!

meathstevie

Malaga2 wrote: »

The whole thing is lunacy....the real issue here is the power of the State. In the UK (and in Ireland) the rights of the State take precenent over the people...it was never meant to be that way...but you get what you get...

This is probably the dumbest Police action ever...rather than thanking the guy for bringing it in they arrest and prosecute....thats what you get when the populace becomes sheep...no wonder the provos didnt want to turn in their gear...

In what the hell has the Good Friday Agreement and the subsequent putting beyond use of paramilitary weaponry got to do with the incident discussed ?
There was never any doubt to what end the Provo's had weaponry in their possession and the reasons why they were put beyond use were the results of political negotiations and a 32-County referendum and as such completely disconnected from a straightforward criminal case in England.

Malaga2

my comment on the provos was more to do with sarcasm than with the topic being discussed....

Your comment about this being a "straightforward criminal case" puts us light years apart in how we intrerpet this event. There is no criminal case here...there is simple lunacy.:Dstraightforward criminal case in England.
straightforward criminal case in England.

ivanthehunter

The law is there to control us. In theory this control is designed to protect us from ourself.:rolleyes:
How could one trust a government that allows the retail trade (big business) to sell cigarettes in the same shops that sell sweets to our children! ffs.

Is it not obvious that the only reason the government insists on education is due to the fact that large industry requires it so as to make more money.That why we rarely receive education other than academic education!

Is it any wonder that the education system fail to teach people about their rights, personal health, personal development and the damage of bad living when the government has never taken any real steps to rid is of the scurge of smoking!! Yet they turn around and suggest a tax on salt as it bad for you!!

Now when the Gov funds are running low they will implement a green tax but it will not be used for issues that its intended!!

Will you bend to a government that tell you what you can and cant do when you know that its not done for the benefit of you and your fellow citizens.

I fail to fathom how cigarettes are openly sold in every public location in the whole of Ireland knowing the damage and heartbreak that this brings to Irish families and yet we are not allowed reload because its dangerous ffs it time to fight these ignorant bast****S...

PJ Hunter

I can’t go to a pub at night and get drunk. I can’t do anything that would appear on the front page of the paper.

afraid of the press. pity, in real life there not so bad.:(


http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2004/06/27/story105458362.asp

Ahern is a lover of technology and a self-confessed ``gadget freak''. He was one of the first people in Dundalk to install a fax machine and he regularly sends text messages from the Dail chamber. He owns an iPod portable music player and uses his mobile phone to watch Dail debates through an internet portal. Yet, despite the electronic attachments, there is something old-fashioned and traditional about Dermot Ahern. He can be an acerbic Dail performer.
He once said of Labour's Tommy Broughan: ``The deputy shows his complete ignorance of the telecoms sector, and I say that with all due respect.'' He has also called Labour's Sean Ryan ``a muppet''. In response, Labour leader Pat Rabbitte called him the ``Hercule Poirot of the Fianna Fail party''. Another time, Rabbitte dubbed Ahern the ``bootboy from Dundalk''. While Ahern is far from being a bootboy, party colleagues said he would be crossed at one's peril. Those who have crossed him describe the experience ruefully.``Ruthlessly ambitious and willing to tread on whatever back gets in the way,'' said one. ``A capable politician, but devoid of all vision,'' said another. Ahern may have just found his ideological voice in the past seven days, but he has been building up his machine for many years. Like his namesake, he is slick and affable, potent and deadly. Dermot Ahern by name, Bertie Ahern by nature?

However, Ahern agreed that the world of politics and politicians was all the poorer for the lack of this intrigue and colour. "No amount of golfing and weekend driving made up for that, he said.‘‘ "We are boring now. We’re all boring. I am boring,” he said.‘‘Why? Because I can’t go to a pub at night and get drunk. I can’t do anything that would appear on the front page of the paper. And I accept that. That is the way that we have to be.”

Rovi

This one was a bit marginal with its relevance to Irish sport shooting to begin with, but it has moved firmly into off-topic ranting at this stage.

Thread closed.