My Job As: A Trader

Idu

Occupation: Trader

Qualifications held: BComm

Previous Jobs: none

Daily/weekly/yearly routine: Researching markets, dicussing strategies, trading would take up 80% of the work day

Age bracket: (optional) under 30

General comments: Great financial rewards, takes discipline and hard work, exciting, challenging, long days but plenty of down time during the day to relax, watch movies, gym etc etc

Day In The Life: (describes just a regular day in detail) In the office at 6:45. Find out what has happened in Asian markets overnight, what relevant announcements have been made, check overnight positions are correct for the 7am open.
7am to 9am European markets open so this time is all for trading.
9am - 1pm Down time. Can be used for research, sleep, watch tv, computer games. Whatever takes your fancy
1pm - 1:45pm US economic data released. Busy trading period
2:15 - 5pm US markets open and European markets close at 16:30. Trading
5pm - 9pm Down time until the US close at 9. Some European futures markets close at that time too. Oil closes and 7:30 and crops at 7:15. Trade for around 10 minutes around each of these closes otherwise it's down time.

mikethemouth

Thanks Idu for that .

Are you a prop trader ?

Are you based in Dublin?

What kind of money would you need to start prop for the ICE/NYMEX markets

Idu

mikethemouth wrote: »

Thanks Idu for that .

Are you a prop trader ?

Are you based in Dublin?

What kind of money would you need to start prop for the ICE/NYMEX markets

I work for a prop firm in Dublin called Positive Equity. They trained me so I didnt have to put up any capital initially. I need around 20k in my account now to meet exchange margin requirements.

I dont know how much you would need starting out. It would depend on the markets you wanted to trade and what kind of software you were going to be using. I'd imagine a decent line to ICE and NYMEX would be expensive though

Reillyman

Feel free not to answer this:p

How much on average would you make in a given year +bonuses?

Idu

Reillyman wrote: »

Feel free not to answer this:p

How much on average would you make in a given year +bonuses?

6 figures

Bigdeadlydave

Did your course in collage help you to get your job?(I mean was it releveant or a case of "he has a degree-Now we know he isint stupid")

Idu

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

Did your course in collage help you to get your job?(I mean was it releveant or a case of "he has a degree-Now we know he isint stupid")

Not at all. We have people in here from with all types of degrees. Obviously something in finance will give you a better understanding starting out but the real attributes they look for are competitiveness, a love of trading and personal ambition.

Thats what I've found in most prop shops. Other trading firms may differ on this. If you want to work for a big Investment Bank then you will need a seriously impressive degree/masters

REFLINE1

Idu wrote: »

Not at all. We have people in here from with all types of degrees. Obviously something in finance will give you a better understanding starting out but the real attributes they look for are competitiveness, a love of trading and personal ambition.

Thats what I've found in most prop shops. Other trading firms may differ on this. If you want to work for a big Investment Bank then you will need a seriously impressive degree/masters

Thats interesting,I would have thought you would have to have some backround in Finance as a minimum.
Cool- Bout time i got out of Engineering

Idu

This is a copy of the advert they ran for their last trainee intake:

1. Are you a highly accomplished amateur or professional athlete? Do you have medals hanging in your room, trophies stacked all over the mantle, and blue ribbons stuck to every bare surface in your home? Were you the best or one of the best on your team or in your sport from school, college, and university? Have you ever represented your town, county, state, province, or country? Are you a current professional?

2. Are you a video game wizard? Do you invite your friends for some video game action and abuse them thoroughly? Are you a menace to all in Quake, Doom, or other interactive/on line gaming competitions? Have you ever participated in video game competitions? Have you won any video game competitions?

3. Are you a programmer or MS Excel genius? Do you know more languages than Bill Gates but your skills haven’t yet been fully discovered or tested?

4. Humble beginnings? Did you start life out on the wrong foot, one step behind everybody else, not quite with the same advantages as others, but were still able to rise to significant levels of success through sheer determination, hard work and your natural abilities?

We would like to hire and train 6-8 trainee traders.

We will teach you how to trade successfully in today’s fast-paced electronically traded global securities markets. Together, we will turn you into a successful trader. This is an incredible opportunity for anybody attracted to the challenges and rewards that are inherent to the securities markets and trading world.
We are looking for confident, disciplined individuals who have studied subjects such as finance, maths or IT at university. We want people with drive who are enthusiastic about performing to the best of their abilities and have a strong sense of self-awareness to become part of our trading team.


Gives a good outline of the kind of stuff they search for in their candidates

Cadiz

What's staff turnover like in there Idu? Recruitment seems very constant, that's why I ask.

Idu

Cadiz wrote: »

What's staff turnover like in there Idu? Recruitment seems very constant, that's why I ask.

I can't say I've seen much turnover to be honest. In a class of 8 trainees the bell curve would tell you that 2 or 3 won't make the grade. Once you are profitable as a trader then the only turnover is the traders own choice rather than the company forcing you out.

Think the constant recruitment is just because they are looking to expand the business as much as possible. You'll find in any prop firm that they're constantly looking for experienced traders to come to them. They bring in money so why wouldnt they be always looking? The trainee classes come in once every 18 months on average

Cadiz

Your boss seems to put the attrition rate rather higher:

“Around 80 per cent of traders who trade on their own fail in their first year,” he figures. “Of the remaining 20 per cent, about another 80 per cent are blown away in the second year. So that in year three, you have from 5 to 10 per cent of the original group left."

Here's the article in case I'm taking him out of context, but I don't think I am.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0626/1224249571589.html

Even a departure rate of one-third of trainees every 18 months is worth noting, so that those who are looking at this career bear in mind, as your boss says, what a tough business it is and that many don't last in it.

keane2097

For someone with a budding interest in this area could you suggest any literature or websites that would offer a reasonable introduction?

Idu

Cadiz wrote: »

Your boss seems to put the attrition rate rather higher:

“Around 80 per cent of traders who trade on their own fail in their first year,” he figures. “Of the remaining 20 per cent, about another 80 per cent are blown away in the second year. So that in year three, you have from 5 to 10 per cent of the original group left."

Here's the article in case I'm taking him out of context, but I don't think I am.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0626/1224249571589.html

Even a departure rate of one-third of trainees every 18 months is worth noting, so that those who are looking at this career bear in mind, as your boss says, what a tough business it is and that many don't last in it.

Ha ha I think thats him just being hyperbolic. In my entry class 4 of 8 are still with the company and of the next 14 all but 2 are still here. Of course the next class could only have 1 successful trader. I think 80% is way too high though

Idu

keane2097 wrote: »

For someone with a budding interest in this area could you suggest any literature or websites that would offer a reasonable introduction?

The Market Wizards book, Reminiscence of a Stockbroker, A Random Walk Down Wall Street are all good starting points.

Trade2win is an ok site and boards has some decent posters. The type of trading we do doesnt lend itself to general discussion, we dont really need to know long term implications of data its more of reacting to news quickly

Reillyman

When you say "Down Time", do you get to leave the office for this or are you kind of lounging around on standby?

Also, is it a very stressful job?

Idu

Reillyman wrote: »

When you say "Down Time", do you get to leave the office for this or are you kind of lounging around on standby?

Also, is it a very stressful job?

Well Trainees are expected to be around the office and be researching. In reality the day is too long for that so you can dissapear for an hour or two as long as you're not missing anything. We have tv's and computer games for people to use if you're staying in the office

I don't find it stressful anymore but when you're starting out and making no money it can be stressful and soul-destroying at times. You will get battered and have your confidence shattered daily. How you react to that is how you'll do as a trader

DB10

As someone with no real knowledge of trading is it hard to pick up everything?

Idu

DB10 wrote: »

As someone with no real knowledge of trading is it hard to pick up everything?

No they train you. The type of trading we do is probably a lot different to what most peoples idea of it anyway. Personally I had only a very basic idea of trading before I got the job

Reillyman

Roughly how many people would apply for the trainee positions, and what do they look for in a person?

pog it

hey Idu- thanks for all that you have posted.

What is the average age of trainees that get taken on?

Idu

Reillyman wrote: »

Roughly how many people would apply for the trainee positions, and what do they look for in a person?

60 or so. They look for people with competitive streaks and who are highly self motivated. The advert I posted earlier in this thread gives a good idea of what they look for.

Idu

pog it wrote: »

hey Idu- thanks for all that you have posted.

What is the average age of trainees that get taken on?

I would say 25 would be the average age. Some are older, some younger. Because of the way they advertise I think they appeal to people in their twenties but they take people who are older than that too

Hellm0

Would you say a programmer with 4 years experience in .net and a head for math would find it easier to get a job as a trader?

Daragh101

Hi idu,

I was just wondering how much of a role maths plays in your job.?
would you need to be very good at it, or could you get by with a calculator??..

Thanks.

Idu

Hellm0 wrote: »

Would you say a programmer with 4 years experience in .net and a head for math would find it easier to get a job as a trader?

I think so yeah. Its heavily computer based so any extra edge you can give yourself is obviously beneficial. There are other companies who's trading style would be more suited to blackbox and system trading. It's a direction our company wants to go but at the moment they dont have the necessary skills within their employees.

In the last few trainee intakes there has been a much bigger shift towards programming as a skill they look for. I dont personally know much about programming so I dont know how useful .net would be. The one I hear a lot about is C++ but as I say I'm far far far from an expert

Idu

Daragh101 wrote: »

Hi idu,

I was just wondering how much of a role maths plays in your job.?
would you need to be very good at it, or could you get by with a calculator??..

Thanks.

No you dont need to be a genius or anything. A basic grounding in maths is all you'll need. The kind of maths you'll need is quick mental arithmatic rather than complex equations

Reillyman

Is their any firm in Dublin who hire Quants do you know?

Idu

I'm sure the banks would. I don't know of any prop shop that uses them but I dont know the other companies that well

mikethemouth

Idu wrote: »

No they train you. The type of trading we do is probably a lot different to what most peoples idea of it anyway. Personally I had only a very basic idea of trading before I got the job

once your taken on, whats the spilt in terms of profits after you take out your exchange fees ?

What kind of products do you trade?

Are you been realistic with a 6 figure salary as take home pay ... from what i hear this is reserved for the very few in prop firms? Surely it would take a few yrs to be hitting these figures especially with the prop firm taking their cut ?

if it did nt work out would it count against you on your cv that you were a prop trader is a former life if you wanted to stay in banking ...is their any truth in that in ur experience ?

Idu

mikethemouth wrote: »

once your taken on, whats the spilt in terms of profits after you take out your exchange fees ?

What kind of products do you trade?

Are you been realistic with a 6 figure salary as take home pay ... from what i hear this is reserved for the very few in prop firms? Surely it would take a few yrs to be hitting these figures especially with the prop firm taking their cut ?

if it did nt work out would it count against you on your cv that you were a prop trader is a former life if you wanted to stay in banking ...is their any truth in that in ur experience ?

Each firm differs on their splits. My split is based on hitting specific P&L targets in the past

I trade equities and fixed income products - details are confidential

I can only tell you what I earn(pre-tax). I wasnt making it immediately and I cant guarantee I'll make it next year either. You make what you earn yourself so if you put in the time and the effort your rewards will be greater. Some people make more, some people make less. You probably wont make any money in your first year and a half.

I don't think it would count against you. The trading styles would be quite different anyway. I know of people who have moved from a prop house to a bank successfully

mikethemouth

fair play to you .

you ve obviously worked very hard and deserve it.

Idu

mikethemouth wrote: »

fair play to you .

you ve obviously worked very hard and deserve it.

Thanks

REFLINE1

Idu wrote: »

Each firm differs on their splits. My split is based on hitting specific P&L targets in the past

I trade equities and fixed income products - details are confidential

I can only tell you what I earn(pre-tax). I wasnt making it immediately and I cant guarantee I'll make it next year either. You make what you earn yourself so if you put in the time and the effort your rewards will be greater. Some people make more, some people make less. You probably wont make any money in your first year and a half.

I don't think it would count against you. The trading styles would be quite different anyway. I know of people who have moved from a prop house to a bank successfully

good stuff Idu this is a great thread.

So are you saying you worked on commision only,no basic as a trainee? Or am i taking you too literally?

Idu

REFLINE1 wrote: »

good stuff Idu this is a great thread.

So are you saying you worked on commision only,no basic as a trainee? Or am i taking you too literally?

You get a basic for as long as you need it. There's no set time limit for when people should be making money. Everyone develops differently and the company is investing in your potential so they do what they can to make you profitable

Reillyman

Sounds unreal Idu, can't wait to try my hand at it(hopefully):cool:

Do you have any ambitions for later on in your career or do you intend to stay at PE? Do you know anyone that found success abroad?

Idu

Reillyman wrote: »

Sounds unreal Idu, can't wait to try my hand at it(hopefully):cool:

Do you have any ambitions for later on in your career or do you intend to stay at PE? Do you know anyone that found success abroad?

I'm happy with PE at the moment. I know of plenty of people who have had success moving abroad to work and I know a few who have moved into more traditional banking roles. Can't say its something I've seriously thought about. Just enjoying it as is. It's a really amazing job and a great company to work for but it all came on the back of lots of hard work and plenty of moments where I thought I would never make a cent. If it was something you were interested in then just be prepared for a year of hell at first

Daragh101

Idu wrote: »

I'm happy with PE at the moment. I know of plenty of people who have had success moving abroad to work and I know a few who have moved into more traditional banking roles. Can't say its something I've seriously thought about. Just enjoying it as is. It's a really amazing job and a great company to work for but it all came on the back of lots of hard work and plenty of moments where I thought I wonder never make a cent. If it was something you were interested in then just be prepared for a year of hell at first

lol...is this because of the long hours or because of the stress of not making money?

Idu

Daragh101 wrote: »

lol...is this because of the long hours or because of the stress of not making money?

both probably

REFLINE1

Idu wrote: »

both probably

As a newbie what would you say you were doing wrong in hindsight? Was it just a case of learning different techniques or developing your own strategies\style of trading?

Idu

I'd say it was a bit of everything. Didnt realise the true commitment it would take to crack it and it takes time to find your own strengths in the market and to be properly able to put that in to practice. You can only trade quite small size starting out and for me I think it was a case of trying to run before I could walk. Once you find something you have success with though it can really pick up quite quickly. It's a confidence thing I would say

Bigdeadlydave

what happens if you have a really bad day and end up making a mess of things?

Very interesting thread.. Always wanted to end up in portfolio management myself and had signed up for the CFA last year. Never really considered being a trader.

For the first two pages of this thread, I thought how I'd like to step away from fund accounting and try what you're doing. By page 3, I remembered how I don't handle stress well and I like my shorter hours.

Maybe someday but not yet. Good luck with it Idu, sounds great.. Have a friend going for a job as a graduate trader with a Masters of International Finance behind him. Might show him this thread.

Idu

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

what happens if you have a really bad day and end up making a mess of things?

You come back the next day.

There are risk measures in place to try and ensure you dont go over a daily limit on the downside but sometimes things just go horribly wrong. Nothing you can do in that situation but shrug it off and put it behind you. Hard to do at first because you think you'll never be able to make it back but once you've had a good run it's not a big deal

Idu

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe someday but not yet. Good luck with it Idu, sounds great.. Have a friend going for a job as a graduate trader with a Masters of International Finance behind him. Might show him this thread.

I've never worked in a bank which is where I presume this graduate programme is so I cant be sure but I believe the kind of stuff he will be doing on that course will be far different to what we do here, he'll do the same hours at the start but just get much better salary to start

Bigdeadlydave

I was chatting to my schools guidance Councillor the other day and I mentioned this and he said that he believed that their are programs in which you use "virtual money" and I should download one of these to get a quick taste of what it could be like....... Do these exist(he talks a lot of crap) and if so can you recommend one?

Daragh101

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

I was chatting to my schools guidance Councillor the other day and I mentioned this and he said that he believed that their are programs in which you use "virtual money" and I should download one of these to get a quick taste of what it could be like....... Do these exist(he talks a lot of crap) and if so can you recommend one?

http://vse.marketwatch.com/Game/Homepage.aspx

This is a pretty good one!

Swizz

Whre did you get your BComm from? Was it a 1st?

Idu

Swizz wrote: »

Whre did you get your BComm from? Was it a 1st?

UCD and it certainly was not

Daragh101

Im thinking of doing business in U.L. The reasons I pick U.L is because they do a 8month paid work placement, and also they have a virtual trading floor in the business school!.
Would this be a good course to get a job in the industry, or do they generally look for people from different courses than this.?

Reillyman

Daragh101 wrote: »

Im thinking of doing business in U.L. The reasons I pick U.L is because they do a 8month paid work placement, and also they have a virtual trading floor in the business school!.
Would this be a good course to get a job in the industry, or do they generally look for people from different courses than this.?

Is the UL work placement paid?