Drivers who don't give way when merging onto a M-way

BrianD3

On a few occasions we have discussed the issue of drivers merging onto M-ways without giving way to traffic already on it and "courteous" drivers facilitating them.

I recently had a classic case of a driver who seemed to think he had priority when merging. I'm in the left lane of a dual carriageway doing an indicated and steady 100 km/h. There is at least 1 km of clear road in front of me and the same behind. At an interchange a car wants to join the mainline. He manages to time his "merge" so that he pulls directly alongside me, matching my speed exactly. I maintain my speed and position, he maintains his. This goes on for what seems like a long time. I'm pretty sure he wanted the exact piece of road I was on and expected me to
a) slow down to let him in front
or
b) move into the overtaking lane to facilitate him

Never mind the huge expanse of clear road *behind* me :rolleyes:

The outcome was that his acceleration lane was ending so he floored it (showing the impressive acceleration of his exec saloon) passed me on the left, nipped in front and zoomed off into the distance at probably 150+ km/h.

So who's the bigger bollox, me or him?

Berty

Lets see.

He matched the speed of the mainline traffic - Correct

He did not exceed any speed limits - Correct

Now, was it safe for you to pull into the overtaking lane? If yes, then you were wrong not to.

copacetic

you were more in the wrong than him imo. are you sure he even saw you?

JHMEG

That's the kind of pointless chicken playing that goes on in this country. You'd be no less of a man if you had pulled over to let him merge, and let the pr1ck off. No one has the moral high ground in this instance from what I can see.

bazzachazza

BrianD3 wrote: »

I maintain my speed and position

Would it have killed you to change lane ?!

As you say the road was clear in front and behind it wouldn't have hurt you to move over and let him merge. He is entitled to merge and you cannot prevent him from doing so by blocking him.

"courteous" drivers facilitating them.

Using your own words..... .Were you courteous to him ?

Yes it was stupid of him to match your speed and position seen as the road was clear.

I would have moved over at least and then waited to see what the idiot was going to do before either increasing or decreasing my speed.

Mr. Presentable

The proper thing, given the clear road, would have been for you to anticipate his merge and temporarily move over to the overtaking lane to facilitate him.

Alun

nipplenuts wrote: »

The proper thing, given the clear road, would have been for you to anticipate his merge and temporarily move over to the overtaking lane to facilitate him.

Well actually the proper thing, in the sense of following the RotR, would have been for the merger to have either slowed down or sped slightly up so as to come onto the motorway slightly behind or ahead of the OP, not the other way around.

In practice, however, seeing as 90% of Irish drivers haven't actually got a clue as to how to merge properly, in the interests of not colliding with the ignorant twats, I end up moving over as well, but it sticks in my throat every time I have to do it when it's absolutely unnecessary.

Seth Brundle

Berty wrote: »

Lets see.

He matched the speed of the mainline traffic - Correct

He did not exceed any speed limits - Correct

Now, was it safe for you to pull into the overtaking lane? If yes, then you were wrong not to.

copacetic wrote: »

you were more in the wrong than him imo. are you sure he even saw you?

There is no obligation for the driver on the mainline to give way to vehicles entering the motorway - its just courtesy!
Also IIRC some roads have solid white lines along these types of stretches so if one was present then the OP could not have changed lane.

copacetic

kbannon wrote: »

There is no obligation for the driver on the mainline to give way to vehicles entering the motorway - its just courtesy!
Also IIRC some roads have solid white lines along these types of stretches so if one was present then the OP could not have changed lane.

there is no obligation to ever let anyone in. Of course if we all did that stupid stare straight ahead driving there would be a even more crashes on the roads.

I wasn't talking about legal obligatons, I was talking about the difference between good and bad driving.

I've never seen a solid white line at a merge on a motorway, here or in any other country. It wouldn't make a lick of sense.

peasant

I would disagree with all most* of the above answers.

If your man is incapable of adjusting his speed in such a way that he can't join a motorway without discommoding the only other car on it ...then he'd better stop driving altogether.


*note to self ...learn to type faster

copacetic

peasant wrote: »

I would disagree with all most* of the above answers.

If your man is incapable of adjusting his speed in such a way that he can't join a motorway without discommoding the only other car on it ...then he'd better stop driving altogether.


*note to self ...learn to type faster

I think you misread a lot of them. Nobody said that guy was a good driver, you have two pretty bad drivers here. The judgement is which of them is worse than the other, which is saying very little.

peasant

copacetic wrote: »

you have two pretty bad drivers here.

I can only see one bad driver.

Keeping your lane (and your priority right of way) and keep on driving steadily so that the other guy can adjust his speed (up or down) is NOT bad driving, not at all.

IMO, changing lane in such a clear cut and easy situation like this is just misplaced courtesy

copacetic

peasant wrote: »

I can only see one bad driver.

Keeping your lane (and your priority right of way) and keep on driving steadily so that the other guy can adjust his speed (up or down) is NOT bad driving, not at all.

IMO, changing lane in such a clear cut and easy situation like this is just misplaced courtesy

So what, you just ignore him, assume he has seen you and if he crashes into you say it was his fault?

Berty

There is a lot of "Its my road" attitude going on here.

Causing other drivers difficulty merging is no way to act on the road.

Common courtesy should prevail.

peasant

copacetic wrote: »

So what, you just ignore him, assume he has seen you and if he crashes into you say it was his fault?

If he crashed into me it WOULD be his fault (not that i would let this happen)

Yes, I would assume that he has seen me, I would further assume that he knows how to drive and how to merge on a motorway and I would also assume that he would be polite enough not to force me to change lane and rather merge properly and safely.

But then ...I learned how to drive on a motorway and how to merge so in this country my assumptions aren't always correct

peasant

Berty wrote: »

Causing other drivers difficulty merging is no way to act on the road.

I fully agree.

However, there isn't the minutest degree of difficulty in merging when there is only one other car already on the motorway and that car is driving at a constant speed.

doolox

It is totally ignorant of the merger not to adjust his speed either up or down to occupy an different piece of road than you. It happens that you need to slow down or speed up to make space for these people a lot on our Motorways because a lot of Irish people are not trained to use motorways properly.

Bluetonic

The big problem here is the idiots who pull out into the overtaking lane in some attempt to let a motorist merge when there is absolutely no need too. They pull out without no comprehension of how fast a car travelling at 120km+ can make ground.

Back on the main point there should be absolutely no need to pull into the overtaking lane to allow a motorist to merge. The merging motorists should simply slowing down or speeding up a little to move into the gap you are of course leaving between you and other vehicles.

xabi

From the rules of the road:

On a two-lane motorway, use this for overtaking only and move back into lane 1 when you have finished. You may also use this lane to accommodate traffic merging from the left.

I always move into the overtaking lane to let cars merge, makes life so much easier for everyone.

I always move into the overtaking lane when I see traffic merging ahead staying in the lane and interfering with the flow of traffic is just acting the bo**ocks imo.

Y2J_MUFC

Berty wrote: »

There is a lot of "Its my road" attitude going on here.

Causing other drivers difficulty merging is no way to act on the road.

Common courtesy should prevail.

Nail on the head there.

It would have caused you no inconvenience whatsoever to temporarily move to the overtaking lane, but you actively tried to inconvenience him by making it as difficult as possible for him to merge, without any valid need to.

Why doesn't common sense and common courtesy prevail? You move over without inconvenience to you or anyone else, he joins the motorway without any inconvenience, instead of making it difficult for the person. Its hardly rocket science to figure out that that makes life easier for both of you.

Why would you want to make it difficult to merge on an otherwise clear road? I don't understand. It sounds like you were ignorant not to give him common courtesy and use a bit of common sense.

testarossa40

I've a well-honed routine that takes care of this very situation. Whenever I'm in the left lane approaching on on-merge and see any sign of cars about to join, I check my mirrors & blind-spot, and, when safe to so change into the overtaking lane (at not less than 120kph*) well in advance of said cars merging then slot back into left once clear. Such a simple, easy routine it's practically a reflex reaction on my part. It's well within the ROTR, and frankly, it's the correct, courteous, and MATURE thing to do.

And if it's that congested that I can't pull out right in time, then I adjust my speed facilitate merging in turn.

So none of this "C'mon I DARE ya to invade MY space and merge into MY lane while I'm here" nonsense.

And posters on these threads complain about the standard of Irish motorway driving... :rolleyes:



*where legally permitted

MagicMarker

I can't see how the OP was an inconvenience to the other driver, if anything it's the other way round!! The driver that was merging made life difficult for himself.

peasant

Y2J_MUFC wrote: »

Nail on the head there.

It would have caused you no inconvenience whatsoever to temporarily move to the overtaking lane, but you actively tried to inconvenience him by making it as difficult as possible for him to merge, without any valid need to.

Why doesn't common sense and common courtesy prevail? You move over without inconvenience to you or anyone else, he joins the motorway without any inconvenience, instead of making it difficult for the person. Its hardly rocket science to figure out that that makes life easier for both of you.

Why would you want to make it difficult to merge on an otherwise clear road? I don't understand. It sounds like you were ignorant not to give him common courtesy.

"Common courtesy" is the new political correctness.:rolleyes:

1) It is not difficult to merge onto a motorway when there is only one other car on it doing a constant speed. If you find it difficult, you should consider taking public transport

2) no-one is inconveniencing anyone in the above scenario (once both parties know how to drive properly)

3) in the above scenario, moving over is neither courteous nor necessary ... it is a superflous gesture of "look at me and how nice I am"

4) how will anyone ever learn to merge correctly if everyone just moves over ?

5) this misplaced courtesy will lead to an expectation that everybody will move over (and that (learning how) to merge properly is not necessary)

6) there are situations where it is indeed courteous (and necessary) to move over ..the above scenario is not one of them

7) lastly, there are situations when it is not possible/safe to move over ...what do those that have never learned to merge do then?

Voodoomelon

nipplenuts wrote: »

The proper thing, given the clear road, would have been for you to anticipate his merge and temporarily move over to the overtaking lane to facilitate him.

As much as I agree with you and do the same myself when I see someone about to merge, its a pain in the nuts when you move out to the overtaking lane, only for the person thats merging to speed up all of a sudden meaning that they're ahead of you anyway and you moved out for no reason.

And you have to sheepishly move back into the left lane. :P

Depending on the motorway and the merge, I usually make sure i'm doing 120kph when I join, pretty much puts you ahead of most drivers.

O.A.P

testarossa40 wrote: »

I've a well-honed routine that takes care of this very situation. Whenever I'm in the left lane approaching on on-merge and see any sign of cars about to join, I check my mirrors & blind-spot, and, when safe to so change into the overtaking lane (at not less than 120kph*) well in advance of said cars merging then slot back into left once clear. Such a simple, easy routine it's practically a reflex reaction on my part. It's well within the ROTR, and frankly, it's the correct, courteous, and MATURE thing to do.

And if it's that congested that I can't pull out right in time, then I adjust my speed facilitate merging in turn.

So none of this "C'mon I DARE ya to invade MY space and merge into MY lane while I'm here" nonsense.

And posters on these threads complain about the standard of Irish motorway driving... :rolleyes:



*where legally permitted

Thats they way I drive too but you said it better.;)

peasant

testarossa40 wrote: »

and, when safe to so change into the overtaking lane (at not less than 120kph*)

question:

What do you do when you can't change lanes and/or you can't speed up to the limit ?

2qk4u

Traffic on the motorway should adjust their drive to allow the merging traffic to join the motorway. The traffic joining the motorway is building up speed or has matched the speed of the cars on the motorway, they have nowhere left to go when they reach the end of the slip lane, they cannot slow down as the traffic following is building up speed on its way down the slip lane.

dellas1979

Well, seeing as you asked (your words), I think you are the bigger bollock.

Is safety not high on your priorities?

What part of the road do you own? Cause Im pretty sure the other driver has claims too - actually come to think of it about 4 million of us in Ireland do. Sorry. to. burst. your. bubble.

Henry Ford III

2qk4u wrote: »

Traffic on the motorway should adjust their drive to allow the merging traffic to join the motorway. The traffic joining the motorway is building up speed or has matched the speed of the cars on the motorway, they have nowhere left to go when they reach the end of the slip lane, they cannot slow down as the traffic following is building up speed on its way down the slip lane.

That's precisely wrong.

MagicMarker

2qk4u wrote: »

Traffic on the motorway should adjust their drive to allow the merging traffic to join the motorway. The traffic joining the motorway is building up speed or has matched the speed of the cars on the motorway, they have nowhere left to go when they reach the end of the slip lane, they cannot slow down as the traffic following is building up speed on its way down the slip lane.

I understand what you're saying, but it's doesn't exactly apply to the case at hand, which I find analogous to someone sitting next to me on an empty bus, i.e, pointless.

Oh yeah, and wrong, merging traffic have to adjust their speed according to the flow of traffic on the motorway.

MagicMarker

dellas1979 wrote: »

Well, seeing as you asked (your words), I think you are the bigger bollock.

Is safety not high on your priorities?

What part of the road do you own? Cause Im pretty sure the other driver has claims too - actually come to think of it about 4 million of us in Ireland do. Sorry. to. burst. your. bubble.

Worst. use. of. full. stop. ever.

2qk4u

Henry Ford III wrote: »

That's precisely wrong.

Please explain.

O.A.P

peasant wrote: »

question:

What do you do when you can't change lanes and/or you can't speed up to the limit ?

I'd back off enough to let him in ,if the only other option was race him for it.

peasant

O.A.P wrote: »

I'd back off enough to let him in ,if the only other option was race him for it.

Backing off is one option ...speeding up (if possible) is another.
Depending on the circumstances you have to choose the appropriate one

Having a race, obviously, isn't an option ever.

O.A.P

peasant wrote: »

Backing off is one option ...speeding up (if possible) is another.
Depending on the circumstances you have to choose the appropriate one

Having a race, obviously, isn't an option ever.

You said I could'nt speed up or change lanes. I got it right so.

2qk4u

MagicMarker wrote: »

I understand what you're saying, but it's doesn't exactly apply to the case at hand, which I find analogous to someone sitting next to me on an empty bus, i.e, pointless.

Oh yeah, and wrong, merging traffic have to adjust their speed according to the flow of traffic on the motorway.

In this case with you being the only other car nearby I would have pulled right out at the end of the slip lane, there is only you and him on the the road and there is a problem that could be avoided by you moving out, therefore you are a bollox.

Seth Brundle

copacetic wrote: »

I've never seen a solid white line at a merge on a motorway, here or in any other country. It wouldn't make a lick of sense.

There are but I don't recall where or even if it was parallel to the off-ramp or parallel to the on-ramp.
I remember posting it up here also and it was acknowledged. Google can't find it though

MagicMarker

2qk4u wrote: »

In this case with you being the only other car nearby I would have pulled right out at the end of the slip lane, there is only you and him on the the road and there is a problem that could be avoided by you moving out, therefore you are a bollox.

I don't know which point of view you're speaking from tbh. You would have waited to pull out at the end of the slip lane?

testarossa40

Peasant, I'm surprised at you

peasant wrote: »

"Common courtesy" is the new political correctness.:rolleyes:

1) It is not difficult to merge onto a motorway when there is only one other car on it doing a constant speed. If you find it difficult, you should consider taking public transport

If you've happened into the vicinity of merging traffic then there's an increased likelihood of intentional or unintentional spatial interference of some degree or other, even ending up side-by-side! (as happened to the OP for some reason)

peasant wrote: »

2) no-one is inconveniencing anyone in the above scenario (once both parties know how to drive properly)

Incorrect imo. The car/driver on the mainline has many more options to deal with the situation with little to no inconvenience to themselves at all than has the car that's trying merge. After all, the merging car has an ever-diminishing length of slip road to consider and if the mainline car won't courteously facilitate the merge by using the space to their right, then it might either have to break & slow down thus joining at a reduced speed and potentially slowing down traffic behind unnecessarily, or increase speed and "undertake" - possibly abruptly. All the mainline driver had to do was anticipate & pull out to the right with infinitesimal impact to their journey.

peasant wrote: »

3) in the above scenario, moving over is neither courteous nor necessary ... it is a superflous gesture of "look at me and how nice I am"

No. It is courteous AND facilitates smooth traffic flow. Simples.

peasant wrote: »

4) how will anyone ever learn to merge correctly if everyone just moves over ?

I'd suggest to you that moving over (when safe & appropriate) is a significant part of how to merge correctly. You've driven on continental m/ways, right?

peasant wrote: »

5) this misplaced courtesy will lead to an expectation that everybody will move over (and that (learning how) to merge properly is not necessary)

Proper merging requires: Getting up to matching speed asap, locate/judge a suitable gap, indicate & pull into it before the merge ends. That the OP experienced a side-by-side stand-off is wierd & unfortunate, BUT, would have been AVOIDED if he'd nipped out to right when he could until he'd passed/completed the merge etc.

peasant wrote: »

6) there are situations where it is indeed courteous (and necessary) to move over ..the above scenario is not one of them

The stand-off that the OP experienced would have been avoided if he had anticipated that a car that was merging from very close by on his left might be driven by a nut and so had pulled out to the right to let him painlessly on. It's a large planet we live on after all.

peasant wrote: »

7) lastly, there are situations when it is not possible/safe to move over ...what do those that have never learned to merge do then?

I'd suggest Merge-in-Turn. Or wave cheerily at them as you pass them while they're sat at a stand-still at the top of an angry beeping queue - steering wheels gripped in abject terror

deadlast

BrianD3 wrote: »

On a few occasions we have discussed the issue of drivers merging onto M-ways without giving way to traffic already on it and "courteous" drivers facilitating them.
SNIP

So who's the bigger bollox, me or him?

No definitive answer here imo. It really depends on all the other road conditions. Fact is, he's a hazard...get yourself into a position(early) that will allow you to deal with him and all other hazards. That may involve moving over or slowing down/speeding up.

Ciaranpm

From The Rules of the Road
Joining the motorway

When entering the motorway, exercise care and attention, and yield to traffic on
the motorway. You must follow the steps below when joining a motorway.
1)
Use the acceleration lane to build up your speed before merging into
traffic on the motorway.
Signal early to other motorists that you intend to merge.
2) As you approach on the slip road, check in your mirrors and your blind
spot for a safe gap in traffic in the left-hand lane of the motorway.
3)Obey road signs and road markings.
4)Do not drive on hatch markings before merging into traffic on the
motorway.
5)Give way to traffic already on the motorway.
6)Adjust your speed as you join the motorway so you match, as near as
possible, the general speed of traffic in that lane.
7)Treat each lane change as a seperate manoeuvre. Stay in the left-hand

lane long enough.
End

The above never happens on M50 esp at Cherrywood heading northbound, its like Fook you didnt you see me indicating???

Indicating is exactly that, an indication of the direction you intend to go not I was indicating right when i drove out in front of you!!! GRRRRRRR

2qk4u

MagicMarker wrote: »

I don't know which point of view you're speaking from tbh. You would have waited to pull out at the end of the slip lane?

Yeah, if I come down the slip lane and the only other car couldnt be bothered moving over Id pull right out as if it wasnt there.

testarossa40

peasant wrote: »

question:

What do you do when you can't change lanes and/or you can't speed up to the limit ?

I judge it accordingly. If I can't change lanes then it's most likely because traffic's jammed & moving slowly anyway, so there'll almost certainly be a queue of cars trying to join (slowly). Nearly always the left-hand lane slows right down approaching on-merges so merge-in-turn tends to happen by default and I'd go with that particular flow. Think M50 n/b currently at Sandyford or Dundrum in the evenings for example.

Having said that, I always aim to be in the right-hand lane well in advance of coming up to these one way or another

deadlast

Ciaranpm wrote: »

From The Rules of the Road
Joining the motorway

That'd be grand if everyone followed it, but you know yourself...

jd

I would never presume that traffic would give way to me when I merge on to a motorway/hqdc, and would try to adjust my speed to merge safely- the onus is on the merger to do so. Having said that, when approaching a junction on a motorway I'll make a judgement on what is the best thing to do in a particular situation. Merging on to an Autostrada, or from a service area on a US Freeway, would be good training for a lot of Irish drivers.

Ciaranpm

Dont get me started on the Bray merge heading Southbound

No one gives a flying **** about anybody that is on the m way already.If i am in the left lane i let peoplemerge until i get under the bridge after that they can go and ****e. if they want to go to Bray off with them.

I am sick of being forced off the road by someone at the last minute.

peasant

testarossa40 wrote: »

Peasant, I'm surprised at you


If you've happened into the vicinity of merging traffic then there's an increased likelihood of intentional or unintentional spatial interference of some degree or other, even ending up side-by-side! (as happened to the OP for some reason)

Yepp ...but it shouldn't happen. Once the merger knows what they are doing.

Incorrect imo. The car/driver on the mainline has many more options to deal with the situation with little to no inconvenience to themselves at all than has the car that's trying merge. After all, the merging car has an ever-diminishing length of slip road to consider and if the mainline car won't courteously facilitate the merge by using the space to their right, then it might either have to break & slow down thus joining at a reduced speed and potentially slowing down traffic behind unnecessarily, or increase speed and "undertake" - possibly abruptly. All the mainline driver had to do was anticipate & pull out to the right with infinitesimal impact to their journey

Remember, not only was there only one car on the motorway but also just only one car on the merging lane (so no stress there either) ...and the motorway has the right of way

I'd suggest to you that moving over (when safe & appropriate) is a significant part of how to merge correctly. You've driven on continental m/ways, right?

Yes, I've driven on continental motorways a lot. In the situation as described here no-one would move lanes, ever.
The time to move over (if you can) is when there is a gaggle of cars coming down the merger lane, for a single car there is no need whatsoever.

Proper merging requires: Getting up to matching speed asap, locate/judge a suitable gap, indicate & pull into it before the merge ends.

Exactly ...and it really isn't difficult (or shouldn't be) ...especially not when there is just one car driving at constant speed in the other lane

The stand-off that the OP experienced would have been avoided if he had anticipated that a car that was merging from very close by on his left might be driven by a nut and so had pulled out to the right to let him painlessly on. It's a large planet we live on after all.

While you are correct in what you're saying, I prefer to drive under the assumption that not every other road user is incompetent and/or a nutcase and actually knows how to drive properly.
I would not move out as a matter of principle, I would however avoid a confrontation, if forced into one. Assuming is one thing, insisting quite another (and not adviseable)

BArra

i generally travel the same routes, thus i know when cars will be merging on set parts of the motorway

is it really that difficult to antisipate the merging traffic and move to the overtaking lane prior to this?

it makes things so much easier

so the rules of the road state that those already on the motorway have the right of way, which is fine, its the rules of the road.... however...

its simply common courtesy and in my opinion good driving just to let cars merge, not act like a dickhead trying to block them in

these people who dont antisipate the merging traffic normally have no awareness to their left or right, just head stuck looking straight ahead, zero spacial awareness

deadlast

peasant wrote: »

The time to move over (if you can) is when there is a gaggle of cars coming down the merger lane, for a single car there is no need whatsoever.

You're on the Mway. You see this car coming down the slip road. You know 100% that he wants to/has to merge into the lane you are in. Why wouldn't you move over?

Seth Brundle

deadlast wrote: »

You're on the Mway. You see this car coming down the slip road. You know 100% that he wants to/has to merge into the lane you are in. Why wouldn't you move over?

The theory is that we have rules and it is up to the person merging to actually merge and not take an existing cars place on the mainline!