Anything in the pipeline to prevent shoppers crossing the border?

jimmmy

Absurdum wrote: »

How on earth did you deduce that people with less money will be less likely to shop in a cheaper place?

After the budget many people eg the unemployed, those on social welfare , will have less disposable income to spend on drink , cigarettes, chocolates, luxury foods, + all the stuff people fill their supermarket trolleys with. Instead of some people spending 100 on drink in their trolley up there they may only spend 60 after the budget. That is the only hope of the govt reducing cross border shopping....because they will not reduce vat in a meaningful way, or rates or the minimum wage or accountancy fees or the other bloated overheads southern shops carry.

miftha

seamus wrote: »

The VAT rate is a red herring in this. The VAT rate makes a difference of €6 in every €100 on non-essential items.

There's definitely a psychological effect, but the actual difference between the VAT rates aren't all that important. I'm not going to spend €60 on petrol driving to Newry just to save €20 in VAT on a new TV. (Though some idiots do).

The primary difference is in the exchange rate, and there's very little we can do about that. Sterling is very very weak in historical terms, which makes it next to impossible to compete on any meaningful level. UK prices (particularly up the North) have been slightly cheaper than ROI prices for a number of years now, because of a lower cost of living. However, the difference wasn't enough to justify going. That is, if I can get a telly here for €420 and the same telly up North for €400, I'll just buy it here. What's €20 against hours of my time and my petrol.

Exchange rate is another red herring it only adds to the savings, the base price of goods in the north, in the main, are far cheaper - not slightly. Even when/if sterling regains it's value it will still be cheaper for products in the North as it was in the past, when it was down lower than £0.70, you still saved.

I agree with the principle of the TV example, except the difference will not be €20, more like a minimum of €100 cheaper in north.

irish_bob

skearon wrote: »

Such short sightedness is what drives many others to their sick buckets.

Of course we all would like to see a 32-county Ireland, however the FACT remains that every cent spent in the 6 counties goes to the British Exchequer



Stores in the republic employ Irish staff, and contribute PAYE, PRSI etc to the Revenue Commissioners



Wages are already coming down in the private sector, plus 250,000+ private sector workers have lost their job, and your actions will directly result in many more losing their jobs.

Its time for everyone to show the same spirit displayed during the Lisbon refererendum - pragmatic patriotism.

People who complain about no welfare christmas bonus, which costs €235m, need to understand that €850m is being lost to this state, due to people spending their money in the UK economy this year.

if only state costs would also come down , local authority rates have actually increased , to pay the civil sevants of course
energy costs are far higher in the south due to the redicolously high wages paid to ESB staff , incedently , the head of the esb union brendan ogle was on radio yesterday threatening to switch off the power if any attempt to either cut esb wages or cut staff numbers was made , charming men theese union heads

irish_bob

jimmmy wrote: »

After the budget many people eg the unemployed, those on social welfare , will have less disposable income to spend on drink , cigarettes, chocolates, luxury foods, + all the stuff people fill their supermarket trolleys with. Instead of some people spending 100 on drink in their trolley up there they may only spend 60 after the budget. That is the only hope of the govt reducing cross border shopping....because they will not reduce vat in a meaningful way, or rates or the minimum wage or accountancy fees or the other bloated overheads southern shops carry.

they cant cut social wellfare , fergus ( no child should have to make do with hand me down school uniforms ) finlay said that if the xmas bonus is not reinstated , many on the dole will go hungary this christmas :rolleyes:

jimmmy

irish_bob wrote: »

if only state costs would also come down , local authority rates have actually increased , to pay the civil sevants of course
energy costs are far higher in the south due to the redicolously high wages paid to ESB staff , incedently , the head of the esb union brendan ogle was on radio yesterday threatening to switch off the power if any attempt to either cut esb wages or cut staff numbers was made , charming men theese union heads

During the summer I chatted to a fellow I met, he was retiring from the ESB soon, and they ( the ESB ) actually sent him on a 2 day " retirement course" ! He is a decent sort of fellow, and he will admit himself he is not a very well educated or qualified or highly-skilled person. I suppose he needs help on how to spend his 150,000 tax-free lump sum and 50 grand a year pension.;)

murphaph

irish_bob wrote: »

they cant cut social wellfare , fergus ( no child should have to make do with hand me down school uniforms ) finlay said that if the xmas bonus is not reinstated , many on the dole will go hungary this christmas :rolleyes:

I've heard Budapest has lovely christmas markets lol. Sorry, couldn't resist bob!

Mr.Micro

irish_bob wrote: »

they cant cut social wellfare , fergus ( no child should have to make do with hand me down school uniforms ) finlay said that if the xmas bonus is not reinstated , many on the dole will go hungary this christmas :rolleyes:

Well according to Biffo yesterday that is offset by the drop in prices of goods so no bother. A 90 billion welfare cheque for the banks and developers and friends of FF ( and more if they need it) and cut 1.5 billion and hurt old people and others who need and deserve the money.

papachango

Rent and Energy costs add to the price of food, electrical goods, beer and spirits down here in the south. Government tax and excise duty adds even more. Now couple this with irish retailers being greedy, greedy B*stards and you get the reasons why Irish people shop up North.
What can the government do to stop this? Force the ESB to lower its prices, reduce tax and Duty. The it will be left to the retailers but they wont budge. Like the LVA saying we are great 'we wont be putting up our prices this year' before they got a smack on the wrist for being bold! We will then be left with the greedy retailers and they are not ever going to change, unless we force them to by spending our money up North until they change their tune and their prices.

jimmmy

papachango wrote: »

The it will be left to the retailers but they wont budge. .

papachango wrote: »

We will then be left with the greedy retailers and they are not ever going to change, unless we force them to by spending our money up North until they change their tune and their prices.

There are tens of thousands of retailers in the country and its all their fault ? The greedy retailers ? Even though some of them eg lidl + Dunnes have shops on both sides of the border ? You think its a conspiracy by tens of thousands of people to be greedy....even though many are going bust ?
There is more to it than that, my friend. Look at the costs businesses here have to pay, and the taxes it pay to support the govt.

If you think business is that lucrative, and retailers here are greedy, why do you not set up a shop here ? I do not see many people doing so and making their fortune.

papachango

jimmmy wrote: »

There are tens of thousands of retailers in the country and its all their fault ? The greedy retailers ? Even though some of them eg lidl + Dunnes have shops on both sides of the border ? You think its a conspiracy by tens of thousands of people to be greedy....even though many are going bust ?
There is more to it than that, my friend. Look at the costs businesses here have to pay, and the taxes it pay to support the govt.

If you think business is that lucrative, and retailers here are greedy, why do you not set up a shop here ? I do not see many people doing so and making their fortune.

Jimmy I clearly stated that energy costs and taxes were a big factor of unit cost in the south. Just in case you missed it

1huge1

murphaph wrote: »

A VAT rate is for the entire financial year, not just for christmas.

I don't mean to sound naive but what is stopping them for introducing a lower VAT rate for just 2 months, I admit it might be a pain for the retailers to change the prices twice in as many months but other than that...

jimmmy

papachango wrote: »

Jimmy I clearly stated that energy costs and taxes were a big factor of unit cost in the south. Just in case you missed it

You mentioned them as a factor, fair enough, but did not mention them as a "big" factor or just a factor. You did write "Now couple this with irish retailers being greedy, greedy B*stards and you get the reasons why Irish people shop up North.". Not all irish retailers are "greedy, greedy B*stards", I can assure you. The vast majority of people who work in retail in Ireland earn less than the average Irish public sector wage, for example.

MysticalRain

jimmmy wrote: »

There are tens of thousands of retailers in the country and its all their fault ? The greedy retailers ? Even though some of them eg lidl + Dunnes have shops on both sides of the border ? You think its a conspiracy by tens of thousands of people to be greedy....even though many are going bust ?
There is more to it than that, my friend. Look at the costs businesses here have to pay, and the taxes it pay to support the govt.

If you think business is that lucrative, and retailers here are greedy, why do you not set up a shop here ? I do not see many people doing so and making their fortune.

Sure costs are higher (I sympathize with retailers who have to pay exorbitant rents). But you have to admit the "Ripoff Republic" mentality did play a big part in retailers overcharging down here, and some retailers are still living in cloud cuckoo land when it comes to the prices they're charging. They can't really complain about free market economics when things aren't going their way.

jimmmy

MysticalRain wrote: »

They can't really complain about free market economics when things aren't going their way.

But the vat they have to charge is over a third more than in the north ( 21.5% as opposed to 15% ). Not surprising when the govt pays its employees more than the uk govt pays theirs. Then electricity is expensive ....not surprising when you look at esb wage rates. Then insurance.....accountancy fees ....the cost of cars.....
Its not a free market in the costs businesses here pay.

MysticalRain

jimmmy wrote: »

But the vat they have to charge is over a third more than in the north ( 21.5% as opposed to 15% ). Not surprising when the govt pays its employees more than the uk govt pays theirs. Then electricity is expensive ....not surprising when you look at esb wage rates. Then insurance.....accountancy fees ....the cost of cars.....
Its not a free market in the costs businesses here pay.

Electricity is expensive in lots of places. I've lived in countries where electricity costs were skyhigh and retailers still didn't charge as much as they do over here.

The litigation problem has been reduced by government reforms (note how the costs were apparently never passed on).

Thousands of cheap Europeans kept labour costs down during the boom years.

Accountants fees don't cost that much in the greater scheme of things.

We're talking about retailers here, so cars are pretty much irrelevant.

You're basically making excuses for retailer's greed here. If retailers want my money, they're going to have to stop making excuses and earn it. Like the public sector, they seem to have this sense of entitlement where they can still earn as much money as they were making during the boom years. The problem is we're all broke now, and we have to do what we can to survive.

OMD

MysticalRain wrote: »

Thousands of cheap Europeans kept labour costs down during the boom years.

No they didn't. We have a minimum wage 40% higher than that in NI. I have never understood how people failed to realise that we lived in a very highly paid country so obviously prices were going to be more expensive.

MysticalRain

OMD wrote: »

No they didn't. We have a minimum wage 40% higher than that in NI. I have never understood how people failed to realise that we lived in a very highly paid country so obviously prices were going to be more expensive.

Sure, but our minimum wage isn't exactly "highly paid", and wages would still have been higher if there was less competition in the labour market.

OMD

MysticalRain wrote: »

Sure, but our minimum wage isn't exactly "highly paid", .

Certainly highly paid compared to UK. 20 year old working minimum wage in UK gets slightly over €5 an hour.

jimmmy

MysticalRain wrote: »

Electricity is expensive in lots of places.
.

We have the second most expensive electricity in the EC, I believe.

MysticalRain wrote: »

Thousands of cheap Europeans kept labour costs down during the boom years..

Still the minimum wage here is 50% more than in N. Ireland, and many of the young shop workers , cleaners etc in N. I. are on or close to the minimum wage there.o

MysticalRain wrote: »

Accountants fees don't cost that much in the greater scheme of things.
.

Still, it all adds up.

MysticalRain wrote: »

We're talking about retailers here, so cars are pretty much irrelevant.
.

If a shopworker want to buy a car, say a Ford Fiesta or Focus, he will pay a lot more for it than if he lived in the north.

One of the main things of course is that our vat rate is over a third higher than in the north - 21.5% versus 15%. Plus the private sector in the north does not have to gather taxes + send them to their govt to support public servants on an average wage of 973 per week.

MysticalRain

Still the minimum wage here is 50% more than in N. Ireland, and many of the young shop workers , cleaners etc in N. I. are on or close to the minimum wage there.o

Well if a business can't make a decent profit while paying their staff the minimum wage, then they don't deserve to be in business in the first place.

If a shopworker want to buy a car, say a Ford Fiesta or Focus, he will pay a lot more for it than if he lived in the north.

If they're on the minimum wage, they're probably not going to own a car in the first place.

One of the main things of course is that our vat rate is over a third higher than in the north - 21.5% versus 15%. Plus the private sector in the north does not have to gather taxes + send them to their govt to support public servants on an average wage of 973 per week.

The VAT rate still doesn't account for all of it. Even if it is cut, retailers will just pocket the difference, if their past behavior is anything to go by.

As Ben Dunne said the other day, retailers need to stop whining and get real. I can't afford to treat Irish businesses as a charity that I am expected to donate my money to just for the sake of misguided patriotism.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

... Plus the private sector in the north does not have to gather taxes + send them to their govt to support public servants on an average wage of 973 per week.

Every question seems to come down to the same thing for jimmmy: bash the public sector.

Kindly give a citation for your suggestion that the average pay for public servants is 973 a week.

Absurdum

papachango wrote: »

What can the government do to stop this? Force the ESB to lower its prices,

The Commission for Energy Regulation decide what the price is
http://www.cer.ie/
Prices have been increased over the last decade in order to attract competition to the market in order to end the ESB's monopoly. The net result has been higher prices, and a much lower dividend paid to the government.

irish_bob wrote: »

if only state costs would also come down , local authority rates have actually increased , to pay the civil sevants of course
energy costs are far higher in the south due to the redicolously high wages paid to ESB staff , incedently , the head of the esb union brendan ogle was on radio yesterday threatening to switch off the power if any attempt to either cut esb wages or cut staff numbers was made , charming men theese union heads

ESB staff costs represent about 15% of their operating costs which is in line with similar companies worldwide. Brendan Ogle is not the head of "the esb union" btw, he represents a small number of workers.

papachango

jimmmy wrote: »

You mentioned them as a factor, fair enough, but did not mention them as a "big" factor or just a factor. You did write "Now couple this with irish retailers being greedy, greedy B*stards and you get the reasons why Irish people shop up North.". Not all irish retailers are "greedy, greedy B*stards", I can assure you. The vast majority of people who work in retail in Ireland earn less than the average Irish public sector wage, for example.

I know a lot of Irish retailers are not greedy, but for the most part they are. When I refer to retailers I do not refer to those employed at the till or the store room who have to work for low wages, but rather the owners of such outlets. I don't include the small family retailer with one shop, but rather the larger ones. supervalu, spar, etc.
Look at tesco for example, 'every little helps'. they have a very aggresive policy of pushing smaller retailers out of the market. Also if they have a product that is selling well on their shelves, 5 weeks later they have their own brand product for sale there instead! It's nazi retailing, and the little bit of choice that the consumer has is forced upon them. They screw the supplier too, whilst generating insane profits.
Hope this clears it up.

irish_bob

murphaph wrote: »

I've heard Budapest has lovely christmas markets lol. Sorry, couldn't resist bob!

id rather starve than visit budapest one more time

OMD

MysticalRain wrote: »

Well if a business can't make a decent profit while paying their staff the minimum wage, then they don't deserve to be in business in the first place.

.

Say for example you have 2 identical businesses one in Ireland one in NI, both employing 5 workers aged 18-21 at minimum wage. The Irish business will have to earn an extra €50,000 a year simply to pay the extra cost of wages. That is a lot of extra money to pay out and eats into any chance of making a decent profit. Add to this the higher costs of VAT, rent, light, heat, telephone, insurance and I am sure even you MysticRain will see how hard it is for Irish businesses to compete with NI ones.

OMD

papachango wrote: »

I know a lot of Irish retailers are not greedy, but for the most part they are. When I refer to retailers I do not refer to those employed at the till or the store room who have to work for low wages, but rather the owners of such outlets. I don't include the small family retailer with one shop, but rather the larger ones. supervalu, spar, etc.
Look at tesco for example, 'every little helps'. they have a very aggresive policy of pushing smaller retailers out of the market. Also if they have a product that is selling well on their shelves, 5 weeks later they have their own brand product for sale there instead! It's nazi retailing, and the little bit of choice that the consumer has is forced upon them. They screw the supplier too, whilst generating insane profits.
Hope this clears it up.

But tesco isn't an Irish retailer. It is hard to blame Irish retailers for the actions of massive multinationals such as tesco.

Absurdum

papachango wrote: »

Also if they have a product that is selling well on their shelves, 5 weeks later they have their own brand product for sale there instead!

Their "Change for Good" thing didn't last too long either, many products have gone up again and in some cases, more expensive than ever.

Absurdum

OMD wrote: »

Say for example you have 2 identical businesses one in Ireland one in NI, both employing 5 workers aged 18-21 at minimum wage. The Irish business will have to earn an extra €50,000 a year simply to pay the extra cost of wages.

The difference is €33,000.

papachango

OMD wrote: »

But tesco isn't an Irish retailer. It is hard to blame Irish retailers for the actions of massive multinationals such as tesco.

You are right, but I feel you are splitting hairs here. Tesco may not be an Irish retailer as such, but tesco is a retailer in ireland. Hence it is an Irish retailer!

MysticalRain

OMD wrote: »

Say for example you have 2 identical businesses one in Ireland one in NI, both employing 5 workers aged 18-21 at minimum wage. The Irish business will have to earn an extra €50,000 a year simply to pay the extra cost of wages. That is a lot of extra money to pay out and eats into any chance of making a decent profit. Add to this the higher costs of VAT, rent, light, heat, telephone, insurance and I am sure even you MysticRain will see how hard it is for Irish businesses to compete with NI ones.

Assuming you're using the same minimum wage figures I'm using, the difference is about to €32,552 for five people, or the equivalent cost of a low-end BMW or house extension for the business owner.

If Irish retailers can't deal with the effects of globalization, and free markets, and then they have no business trying to compete in a 21st-century economy. When people in my industry (IT) complain about having to compete with people in other countries who can work for a fraction of what an Irish worker costs, we're just told to suck it up by the likes of IBEC. All we can do is reduce our costs and become more competitive. I do realize there are external factors at play here like you mentioned, but the fact is Irish retailers spend far too much time blaming everybody but themselves for the mess they're in.