Anything in the pipeline to prevent shoppers crossing the border?

Sarn

The way I see it the vast majority of my earnings go to the exchequer here, the deductions from my salary, the DIRT on my savings and the VAT I pay on goods and services. I am not going to feel guilty for the occasional purchase of a cheaper item online or up north.

Ultimately there will still be people who will pay a certain premium for a local, convenient service. I will do what I can to spread my spending and make savings where possible.

francish

irish_bob wrote: »

you do realise that its not a level playing pitch . retailers up north have lower energy costs , lower vat , lower minimum wage and they pay thier local authorities lower rates , the retailers down here dont stand a chance

Why are they tackling these problems rather than complaining about people going up north. Lets tackle the cause not blame people for not paying the inflated price.

donkey balls

Originally Posted by irish_bob
you do realise that its not a level playing pitch . retailers up north have lower energy costs , lower vat , lower minimum wage and they pay thier local authorities lower rates , the retailers down here dont stand a chance

even when you take the higher costs into account the irish shops/uk retailers were still charging excesive prices for goods

irish_bob

francish wrote: »

Why are they tackling these problems rather than complaining about people going up north. Lets tackle the cause not blame people for not paying the inflated price.

because cutting local authortity rates means less money to pay public servants
because lowering energy costs means cutting ESB ( average income 90 k) wages
because lowering the minimum wage means having to listen to the poverty industry and the left

baschically our goverment are cowards

PeteEd

cavedave wrote: »

They could build some sort of wall? The germans could advise us on how.

might at least get some builders working again!:)

francish

dvpower wrote: »

I can think of a couple of good reasons.

• VAT / duties paid in the republic goes into our exchequer.
• Money spent in our economy supports jobs here.

I'd pay some premium to buy goods here. (But the is a point beyond which, I will go elsewhere).

Even if you are being ripped off, are you still willing to support the southern retailer? I dont understand, how do you expect things to change. Alls surveys which have compared prices between South and North, have identified higher profit margins as main cause for price differential.

peter_de_tool

francish wrote: »

Why are they tackling these problems rather than complaining about people going up north. Lets tackle the cause not blame people for not paying the inflated price.

In 2008, the Euro rose in value from £0.74 in January to £0.96 in December, an appreciation of 30 per cent.Given the magnitude of Sterling’s depreciation, compared to the differences in tax rates and operating costs, it seems likely that the change in the exchange rate is the primary cause of the increase in the price differentials between the Republic and Northern Ireland in recent months.


A motorway toll north of Dundalk ?

dvpower

francish wrote: »

Even if you are being ripped off, are you still willing to support the southern retailer? I dont understand, how do you expect things to change. Alls surveys which have compared prices between South and North, have identified higher profit margins as main cause for price differential.

You quote my post but don't even read it.:mad:
I said I would pay some premium. I said that there was a point beyond which I would go elsewhere.

AcePuppetMaster

cavedave wrote: »

They could build some sort of wall? The germans could advise us on how.

Na, that one came came down. Maybe try the Chinese, their one is still up!:D

Taxipete29

irish_bob wrote: »

you do realise that its not a level playing pitch . retailers up north have lower energy costs , lower vat , lower minimum wage and they pay thier local authorities lower rates , the retailers down here dont stand a chance

This is another red herring. We have been paying way higher prices than the North since long before we became one of the most uncompetitive economies in the world. The fact is the retailers milked it in the good times and are now paying the price for their greed.

Tipsy Mac

peter_de_tool wrote: »

In 2008, the Euro rose in value from £0.74 in January to £0.96 in December, an appreciation of 30 per cent.Given the magnitude of Sterling’s depreciation, compared to the differences in tax rates and operating costs, it seems likely that the change in the exchange rate is the primary cause of the increase in the price differentials between the Republic and Northern Ireland in recent months.


A motorway toll north of Dundalk ?

Well most of the goods that there's massive price differentials on such as clothing and electronic good are not made in the UK and the fact that sterling has plummeted should have increased their price in the UK and reduced the price in the eurozone, this hasn't happened as we are just being further ripped off.

It's the protectionism being sought on this thread that has gotten the country into the uncompetitive and backward mess it's in today.

Absurdum

irish_bob wrote: »

because lowering energy costs means cutting ESB ( average income 90 k) wages

you do realise that they would be in a minority if they are ESB customers?

tunney

irish_bob wrote: »

while the benefits of heading north are clear for all to see , the drawbacks are more hidden , what you gain in savings , you loose out in some other form , not one job will be created or saved by shopping up north , state revenue will be lost which will result in reduced available public spending and thus further tax hikes will be nesscery , personally , unless i was facing ruin , i would not shop up north , retailers down here simply cannot compete with the north and the reasons are much greater than the present currency exchange , the local authority charges for business has actually increased in the past year , add to that the fact that we have the 2nd highest electricity costs in europe and southern retailers really have not a chance

we need to get rates down which will mean cutting civil servant wages
we need to get electricity costs down which will also mean cutting public servant ( ESB staff ) wages
we need to lower vat

The other problem is gouging by retailers and distributors. thats only going to happen BY shopping up north.

tunney

dvpower wrote: »

I can think of a couple of good reasons.

• VAT / duties paid in the republic goes into our exchequer.
• Money spent in our economy supports jobs here.

I'd pay some premium to buy goods here. (But the is a point beyond which, I will go elsewhere).

Some premium and some difference is okay.

I bought some parts recently. €78 in an irish shop. €28 up north. €50 premimum on €28 of parts - thats a little steep.

Zynks

mikemac wrote: »

"Random" checkpoints just inside the border
Just random checks but will cause hours of delays. Now if I were a senior civil servant it's something that could be done.

That would make me want to shop up north even more. I would hope for a heavy rain while I am queuing up for hours watching.

MysticalRain wrote: »

Sweet FA is the short answer. This is the same government that told us all to be "good Europeans" and vote for the Lisbon Treaty. They can't complain now when we embrace all those EU values of open markets and free movement of labour and goods.

The objective of the European approach is to force open competition and push economies to find a way to compete. So far we are failing miserably, but what we have today is a start. Remove the EU open market approach and we will be ripped-off to death.

skearon wrote: »

If you have an ounce of patriotism, then shop in your own state, and assist in our Country's economic recovery.

I disagree. Eventually our government and our businesses will realize that we need to be more of an Ikea (low price, low margin, decent quality) than Brown Thomas (expensive, huge margins, elitist). There is no other way out but to go for volume business at low margins. Compete effectively or die, it is that simple.

skearon wrote: »

So put your family first, put your country first, and spend your money in your state.

Every euro lost to the UK, is one Euro lost of the State to pay for the services and/or welfare for 'the thousands of Irish familes trying to make ends meet.', not the mention the lost retail jobs in the South.

The vast majority of what we buy in Ireland is imported anyway. For every € we spend here, around half leaves the country to pay the producer/manufacturer. The other half goes in taxes and retailer income (margin). Taxes and margins are too high in my view. I prefer to go abroad and buy Irish whenever possible while we wait for our economy drivers to wake up.

peter_de_tool wrote: »

In 2008, the Euro rose in value from £0.74 in January to £0.96 in December, an appreciation of 30 per cent.Given the magnitude of Sterling’s depreciation, compared to the differences in tax rates and operating costs, it seems likely that the change in the exchange rate is the primary cause of the increase in the price differentials between the Republic and Northern Ireland in recent months.

Not exactly. UK prices of imported goods went up earlier this year to adjust for the drop in sterling value.

peter_de_tool wrote: »

A motorway toll north of Dundalk ?

Any anti-competitive taxation, direct or indirect is a bad idea.


The bottom line is that we need to re-invent ourselves. It hurts to see our perceived wealth gone. We are ultimately a low-middle class country with a few good minds, bad geographical position and crap weather. The sooner we accept that the easier it will be to start a transition towards focusing on building a solid Irish competitive economy with wealth generated from clever business and hard work.

_Kooli_

dvpower wrote: »

I look forward to your future gems of economic wisdom:pac:

Heres one for you.
Continue to put up with being ripped off here and you give the retailers ZERO incentive to not rip you off.

francish

dvpower wrote: »

You quote my post but don't even read it.:mad:
I said I would pay some premium. I said that there was a point beyond which I would go elsewhere.

I did read your post. However, I regard paying any "premum" as being ripped off!

francish

peter_de_tool wrote: »

In 2008, the Euro rose in value from £0.74 in January to £0.96 in December, an appreciation of 30 per cent.Given the magnitude of Sterling’s depreciation, compared to the differences in tax rates and operating costs, it seems likely that the change in the exchange rate is the primary cause of the increase in the price differentials between the Republic and Northern Ireland in recent months.


A motorway toll north of Dundalk ?

The RoI imports a lot of goods and services from the sterling area, a 30% appreciation of the Euro should have resulted in a reduction in prices of STG imported goods and services. As we are too well aware, this did not happen. The greed of Irish businesses in not lowering their prices has forced consumers to shop elsewhere.

jimmmy

francish wrote: »

The greed of Irish businesses in not lowering their prices has forced consumers to shop elsewhere.

Why do you not set up a business importing stuff from the UK, and see how you get on ? You should do extremely well if its so lucrative and your competitors can afford to be greedy;).

dvpower

francish wrote: »

I did read your post. However, I regard paying any "premum" as being ripped off!

So, if a retailer here cuts their costs to the bone but still can't compete on price with a NI retailer because of different VAT rates, you consider that you are being 'ripped off'?
Why? Do you use a different dictionary to everyone else?

_Kooli_

dvpower wrote: »

So, if a retailer here cuts their costs to the bone but still can't compete on price with a NI retailer because of different VAT rates, you consider that you are being 'ripped off'?
Why? Do you use a different dictionary to everyone else?

The newsagent near me buys cans, chocolate, magazines etc up north and then sells it much cheaper than any other newsagent around.
When i need to go to a newsagent, he gets my business.

dvpower

^^ Wasn't exactly an answer to my question.

diverdriver

When I hear the patriotic argument I reach for the sick bucket. I thought the North was really ours and the people actually Irish although some of them don't like it much? So stick the patriot argument back in the gun case with decommissioned AK-47. There is nothing unpatriotic about shopping in the part of Ireland where things are cheaper. My wife was there recently, not as a shopping trip. But she bought a few things. The price differences were startling. That's for basic commodities too. Things we have to buy like washing powder and nappies. Food items too.

In any case, down here half the time most of the bigger shops are British owned anyway. So the patriotism argument sinks without trace.

I do agree with some here. The only way prices will drop is partly down to lower VAT and partly down to gouging shopkeepers cutting prices to stay in business. It also means lower pay for shop staff who frankly are already low paid in my cases. There is an example in Galway of Boots. They have been trying to introduce pay cuts. The staff are threatening strike but when I read the hourly rates, it all became clear. They are overpaid by shop staff standards. No wonder it's more expensive to shop in Boots here than in the North. That in microcosm is the problem all over the country. We are paid too much, we don't seem to be able to cope with that idea at all. Particularly if you aren't particularly well paid. The only way prices can come down are if wages come down. It has to happen. When that happens we won't go North, they'll be coming here to pick up the bargains.

jetfiremuck

francish wrote: »

Some incredible posts here. Why should someone pay a retailer in the south more for a product that they can buy online/up north for less? If we all shop locally, things will never change. While it’s painful for the southern retailer, in the long run its better for the Irish economy, retailers are forced to demand lower rents from landlords and except that they are not entitled to supernormal profits. As a country can we stop being so short sighted.

Right on. You only have to look at the used cars from the Uk. Even women were buying in the Uk. The irish have no problem spending money however when things get tight they will look for cheaper prices....look at how Aldi and Lidl expanded so quickly

ednwireland

PeteEd wrote: »

might at least get some builders working again!:)

nah the gov would give it to a northern contracter

skearon

diverdriver wrote: »

When I hear the patriotic argument I reach for the sick bucket. I thought the North was really ours and the people actually Irish although some of them don't like it much? So stick the patriot argument back in the gun case with decommissioned AK-47. There is nothing unpatriotic about shopping in the part of Ireland where things are cheaper. My wife was there recently, not as a shopping trip. But she bought a few things. The price differences were startling. That's for basic commodities too. Things we have to buy like washing powder and nappies. Food items too.

Such short sightedness is what drives many others to their sick buckets.

Of course we all would like to see a 32-county Ireland, however the FACT remains that every cent spent in the 6 counties goes to the British Exchequer

diverdriver wrote: »

In any case, down here half the time most of the bigger shops are British owned anyway. So the patriotism argument sinks without trace.

Stores in the republic employ Irish staff, and contribute PAYE, PRSI etc to the Revenue Commissioners

diverdriver wrote: »

I do agree with some here. The only way prices will drop is partly down to lower VAT and partly down to gouging shopkeepers cutting prices to stay in business. It also means lower pay for shop staff who frankly are already low paid in my cases. There is an example in Galway of Boots. They have been trying to introduce pay cuts. The staff are threatening strike but when I read the hourly rates, it all became clear. They are overpaid by shop staff standards. No wonder it's more expensive to shop in Boots here than in the North. That in microcosm is the problem all over the country. We are paid too much, we don't seem to be able to cope with that idea at all. Particularly if you aren't particularly well paid. The only way prices can come down are if wages come down. It has to happen. When that happens we won't go North, they'll be coming here to pick up the bargains.

Wages are already coming down in the private sector, plus 250,000+ private sector workers have lost their job, and your actions will directly result in many more losing their jobs.

Its time for everyone to show the same spirit displayed during the Lisbon refererendum - pragmatic patriotism.

People who complain about no welfare christmas bonus, which costs €235m, need to understand that €850m is being lost to this state, due to people spending their money in the UK economy this year.

jimmmy

To answer the original posters question "Anything in the pipeline to prevent shoppers crossing the border? ", yes in the dudget there is. The govt is proposing to reduce govt spending on social welfare and public service pay etc by approx 4 billion. This should have a major impact on what is spent across the border.....a lot of people who get money / paid by the government are currently going across the border and spending it on luxuries in another jurisdiction, where the vat rate is less than three quarters of what it is here etc. The chickens are coming home to roost.

Zynks

I thought most people going north were shopping for groceries. I don't need to go north to order a TV, that can be done online. Reducing peoples disposable income is likely to be more of an incentive than a deterrent in my opinion.

Absurdum

jimmmy wrote: »

The govt is proposing to reduce govt spending on social welfare and public service pay etc by approx 4 billion. This should have a major impact on what is spent across the border.....a lot of people who get money / paid by the government are currently going across the border and spending it on luxuries in another jurisdiction, where the vat rate is less than three quarters of what it is here etc. The chickens are coming home to roost.

How on earth did you deduce that people with less money will be less likely to shop in a cheaper place?

seamus

jimmmy wrote: »

the vat rate is less than three quarters of what it is here etc.

The VAT rate is a red herring in this. The VAT rate makes a difference of €6 in every €100 on non-essential items.

There's definitely a psychological effect, but the actual difference between the VAT rates aren't all that important. I'm not going to spend €60 on petrol driving to Newry just to save €20 in VAT on a new TV. (Though some idiots do).

The primary difference is in the exchange rate, and there's very little we can do about that. Sterling is very very weak in historical terms, which makes it next to impossible to compete on any meaningful level. UK prices (particularly up the North) have been slightly cheaper than ROI prices for a number of years now, because of a lower cost of living. However, the difference wasn't enough to justify going. That is, if I can get a telly here for €420 and the same telly up North for €400, I'll just buy it here. What's €20 against hours of my time and my petrol.

However, because of the exchange rate *and* VAT changes, the cost of UK goods to an Irish consumer has dropped by 19.5% in the past 18 months. So that same telly I can now get for €320 in Newry instead of the €420 they're still charging in Dublin.

And I've got a full tank of petrol and 2 hours to spare, so...

That's what people are missing here - nobody in the Republic has done anything *wrong*, which is causing people to cross the borders. They just haven't really done anything to counteract it.

As pointed out, the primary reasons that people are going North is for cigarettes and alcohol. You could set up checkpoints, but you're not solving the problems.

It's time to ignore the "what about the children"-ers on this one - drop duty on alcohol by 35% and remove all restrictions on off-sales - allow any licenced shop to sell alcohol at any time of the day or night.
Keep the "ceiling" on the price of cigarettes but drop the duty by €2.

It's simple economics - when you drop your price below a certain point, you make more sales of a cheaper product and make more income.

They will decrease VAT in the budget. I would suggest that they'll chop 2% off of it. That'll make very little difference to the cost of goods, but it appeals to the psychological aspect of figures - 20% or higher seems like a lot. Less than 20%, not so much. The same thinking behind pricing something at €19.99 instead of €20