GHB blamed in party hospitalisations...

Wertz

On the radio news this morning several reports about a number (ranging 4-11) of partygoers in NW Dublin being taken to hospital suffering from overdose/poisoning/interaction from a substance they insist on referring to as "liquid ecstasy"
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1101/dublin.html

Just like to clear up for some of our journalistic readers and such that this substance is in fact GHB:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Hydroxybutyric_acid

and bears no relation either chemically or in any other way to what is commonly known as ecstasy or MDMA to give it it's proper acronym.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA

What's prompted me to post this was a small piece I caught on Marian Finnucane's show just after the midday news, where she and another panel member went on a little moralistic hand wringing excercise about this "liquid ecstasy" and then tried to draw some correlation between the story and sacking or Prof Nutt in the UK earlier this week as regarding his comments on MDMA.
That is just wrong on so many levels that I don't know where to begin. For a start as pointed out, they are two completely different substances. For another, GHB is currently scheduled class C in the UK (not sure about Ireland), whereas MDMA is still class A.
Last point, Nutt was ousted for his comments regarding cannabis classification and it's associated risks. Ms Finnucane's little outburst shows her and her reserchers up for the overpaid tongue waggers they really are...if these people are to be tasked with informing and commenting to the general public on news items they could at least get their facts straight before they put them to air.

I'm not sure what I expect from this post. I'm sure most of you could give two damns what these people have taken, that it's all illgeal drugs and that they expect what they get.
Thing is that GHB was perfectly legal in the UK up until 2003, MDMA has been at the top of the classifcation charts since the late 80's.
I've never taken the stuff (GHB): I've always been a little shy about drinking something made from various under-the-sink chemicals myself, but I've read a lot about it...the one thing that was always made clear about it was it's high interaction level with alcohol and how much more likely it is to be fatal when used in combination (99% likely to be a contributing factor in this case)
A good piece on it here for those that care to read it.
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/ghb/legal.html

So all that aside, anyone taken it out there? Any thoughts regarding it? Did you drink alcohol whilst using it?

FunkZ

These hangovers disables AH users from being enabled to read threads longer than a willy...

My name is URL

Just heard this on the radio myself.. why do people drink whilst taking other stuff, it's stupid

I mean people don't drink while on prescription drugs because it can be dangerous, so why are recreational drugs any different?

People need to educate themselves better imo, just because illegal drugs don't have a warning label doesn't mean that dangers don't exist

Four-Percent

Am I right in thinking GHB is used in supplements?

phantom_lord

mdma is class a? lol that drug classification system is all over the place.

SoupyNorman

Who was having hair straightening parties at 5am??

orourkeda

Give us an EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

mike65

More Darwinians...

Wertz

My name is URL wrote: »

Just heard this on the radio myself.. why do people drink whilst taking other stuff, it's stupid

I mean people don't drink while on prescription drugs because it can be dangerous, so why are recreational drugs any different?

People need to educate themselves better imo, just because illegal drugs don't have a warning label doesn't mean that dangers don't exist

That's true enough but then again over my decade or so of ecstasy usage, I always drank with them, usually a greater amount than I'd have drank if I was just drinking...whilst it lead to some monstrous and prolonged hangovers I managed to stay out of A&E.
The problem here is that there is no viable safety information out there regarding illegal substances...you have blanket warnings about cocaine interactions, ecstasy interactions, various 'scrip meds and their effects with alcohol...but when it comes to little known stuff like GHB, there is nothing (except it being lumped in with various other substances) until cases like this come along.

I also neglected to mention that GHB is the date rape drug that Rohypnol takes much of the flack for...I've seen various threads on here recently playing down the whole date rape phenomenon as being a combination of female exaggeration, over indulgence in drink and urban myth...the use of GHB is, as a colourless, odourless, liquid substance that is very hard to screen for (due to the fact that it occurs naturaly in the body) nearly impossible to rule out in so many reported cases.

Still interested in people who have taken this stuff or been offered and anyone who may think they may have been spiked with it...just to gauge how common it is these days.

jumpguy

Illegal drugs are illegal. No doubt, these drugs were illegally made with no quality-control or rigourus testing, obviously. You're taking you're own life into your hands when you take illegal drugs, not to mention funding criminal activity. That's it, they took them, I'm sure they know the risks.

Wertz

From the other thread:

Its an ecstasy tablet but in liquid form.

It really isn't. The two substances don't even produce the same effects, are in completely separate legal classes and one has been illegal for a much longer period, altough it enjoys a much higher usage figure.

Posting stuff like this that impressionable people might read leads to confusion over the effects of substances and may lead to further harm.

Jumpguy: no-one is questioning it's legality. Nor that of ecstasy.

Piste

They really should explain that GHB isn't the same as MDMA, It's just sloppy journalism otherwise and adds to the fear and scaremongering that exists surrounding drugs.

Wertz

Piste wrote: »

They really should explain that GHB isn't the same as MDMA, It's just sloppy journalism otherwise and adds to the fear and scaremongering that exists surrounding drugs.

Unfortunately that suits everyone who matters down to the ground...journalists included. It's partly why I posted the thread to begin with, to try and illustrate the difference...

d0gb0y

I've used GHB a lot and its ridiculous that it can be referred to as liquid ecstacy as its effects are more like alcohol than anything else.
It just looks like another "drugs are bad m'kay" story

dny123456

Heard the same program on the radio this morning and thought the same. Was going to text in... then thought, why bother and went to sleep.

WeWillBeReborn

Piste wrote: »

They really should explain that GHB isn't the same as MDMA, It's just sloppy journalism otherwise and adds to the fear and scaremongering that exists surrounding drugs.

Right, because drugs never get any good press, for some reason :rolleyes:

Daroxtar

Most of Marian Finucane listeners dont know their arse from their elbow and are only concerned about Complan and Werthers Originals, not ghb or mdma. Who cares what they think, they'll all be dead in a few years and then we'll be in control:)

dny123456

Daroxtar wrote: »

Most of Marian Finucane listeners dont know their arse from their elbow and are only concerned about Complan and Werthers Originals, not ghb or mdma. Who cares what they think, they'll all be dead in a few years and then we'll be in control:)

Oih, I listen to her every weekend... i dont plan to be dead for at least another 40 years.

I just heard the story on the news and the gardai are claiming that the 'liquid ectasy' may have been put into people's drinks last night without their knowledge. They strongly urged anyone who knows of anyone at a party in blanchardstown last night, to check on them to make sure they're ok.

Are they being OTT or is this stuff really dangerous?

Wertz

dny123456 wrote: »

Heard the same program on the radio this morning and thought the same. Was going to text in... then thought, why bother and went to sleep.

lol I was in the middle of texting when my phone battery died...in retrospect it'd have been a waste of time and credit anyhow, because it wouldn't have made it past the first researcher.

As for what the listeners think? Well for a start it's the highest listenership for it's slot....and the average demographic are also the people who turn out to vote the most...if the show is letting such inaccuracies make it to the airwaves, what else are they getting wrong?

*sips ovaltine*

WeWillBeReborn

Deleted User wrote: »

I just heard the story on the news and the gardai are claiming that the 'liquid ectasy' may have been put into people's drinks last night without their knowledge. They strongly urged anyone who knows of anyone at a party in blanchardstown last night, to check on them to make sure they're ok.

Are they being OTT or is this stuff really dangerous?

There are people in hospital because of it, sounds dangerous to me

d0gb0y

Deleted User wrote: »

I just heard the story on the news and the gardai are claiming that the 'liquid ectasy' may have been put into people's drinks last night without their knowledge. They strongly urged anyone who knows of anyone at a party in blanchardstown last night, to check on them to make sure they're ok.

Are they being OTT or is this stuff really dangerous?

I don't think GHB can be used to spike peoples drinks as its a salt and you need a lot 4+ grams iirc
It makes a mess of any fizzy drink and would be very noticable in any other drink
Its the first i've heard of it causing any problems and imo i'm willing to bet its more to do with the amount of alcohol that the people consumed, than the substance itself unless it was a dodgy batch.

WeWillBeReborn

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

There are people in hospital because of it, sounds dangerous to me

Yeh I know, but they are "stable" which could mean anything!

I just wonder if they are worried people may die from it if they don't get medical attention? what are the serious effects of this drug?

I had vaguely heard of liquid ecstasy before today but would have thought it was just that...a liquid form of ecstasy.


edit: and just to add, Hospitals are packed full of people every weekend suffering the effects of alcohol but it wouldn't be considered dangerous generally.

WeWillBeReborn

Well if they were spiked as the story you said was true, it'd be a pretty serious crime, I'm sure they're doing it so

1) They make sure everyone that it affected is okay
2) To make sure the bas****s that did it are caught

Wertz

Deleted User wrote: »

Are they being OTT or is this stuff really dangerous?

Read my 3rd link in the opening post...this stuff has quite a reputation as a date rape tool, including a very famour case in the US. When mixed with alcohol the effects are almost always dangerous and highly unpredicatble and to medical staff upon presentation can be very hard to identify.

I don't think it's scaremongering on behalf of AGS...someone somewhere could be lieing in their bed comatosed or worse...if the warning prevents a death then it's well worth it...I just wish they'd make the distinction so as not to tar MDMA with the same brush (althouh like I said that would suit most people)...

d0gb0y

jumpguy wrote: »

Illegal drugs are illegal. No doubt, these drugs were illegally made with no quality-control or rigourus testing, obviously. You're taking you're own life into your hands when you take illegal drugs, not to mention funding criminal activity. That's it, they took them, I'm sure they know the risks.

Not 100% sure but last time I checked GHB was not illegal in Ireland or the UK
There was a drive to crimilize it using the spike drink/date rape bull**** but I don't think it was enacted
Maybe someone can confirm whether it is illegal or not

Acoustic

deserve what they get

play with drugs ur gonna get hurt

WeWillBeReborn

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

Well if they were spiked as the story you said was true, it'd be a pretty serious crime, I'm sure they're doing it so

1) They make sure everyone that it affected is okay
2) To make sure the bas****s that did it are caught

Why on earth would you spike someones drink? seriously? what kind of kick would you get out of spiking everyone's drink? If it's true i really hope they get what they deserve. However, if what d0gb0y said is true (and I have no reason to believe it isn't) it's more likely that the people in hospital, when being questioned by gardai, claimed they knew nothing about it so as not to face criminal charges?

madma

yep its a joke there saying mdma..mdma exstacy is extinct in this country!

Wertz

Wertz wrote: »

I don't think it's scaremongering on behalf of AGS...someone somewhere could be lieing in their bed comatosed or worse...if the warning prevents a death then it's well worth it...I just wish they'd make the distinction so as not to tar MDMA with the same brush (althouh like I said that would suit most people)...

That's seriously worrying.

Wertz

d0gb0y wrote: »

Not 100% sure but last time I checked GHB was not illegal in Ireland or the UK
There was a drive to crimilize it using the spike drink/date rape bull**** but I don't think it was enacted
Maybe someone can confirm whether it is illegal or not

Class C in UK so I presume here as well. US has it in two different schedules depending on the sub -type.

As for your point about the saltiness, apparently using different bases for the substance can reduce the salty taste.

d0gb0y

Wertz wrote: »

I don't think it's scaremongering on behalf of AGS...someone somewhere could be lieing in their bed comatosed or worse...if the warning prevents a death then it's well worth it...I just wish they'd make the distinction so as not to tar MDMA with the same brush (althouh like I said that would suit most people)...

There is no one lying in bed comatose from this stuff, in fact it makes a brilliant hangover cure, alcohol is the problem here not GHB. GHB has never caused a single death compare that to alcohol

Thx for clarification of legality, must have been made illegal recently

WeWillBeReborn

Deleted User wrote: »

Why on earth would you spike someones drink? seriously? what kind of kick would you get out of spiking everyone's drink? If it's true i really hope they get what they deserve. However, if what d0gb0y said is true (and I have no reason to believe it isn't) it's more likely that the people in hospital, when being questioned by gardai, claimed they knew nothing about it so as not to face criminal charges?

I reckon the Gardai figured that out as well. But if you were the Garda that asked them which would you rather: finding out if other people had been 'spiked' and finding out the answer is no, or assuming they are lying and finding out it did happen to someone else?

I'm not saying they were spiked, none of us know exactly what happened, I'm just explaining why the Gardai are asking if it happened to anyone else.

Wertz

Deleted User wrote: »

Why on earth would you spike someones drink? seriously? what kind of kick would you get out of spiking everyone's drink? If it's true i really hope they get what they deserve. However, if what d0gb0y said is true (and I have no reason to believe it isn't) it's more likely that the people in hospital, when being questioned by gardai, claimed they knew nothing about it so as not to face criminal charges?

It's what some people do...it's hard to reason. I've been at parties where LSD or E's were lobbed into bottles and handed to people for the craic.
Motives range from wanting to see someone's reaction, to take the mick out of them and all the way to having non-consensual sex with them.

As for people claiming they've been spiked to avoid criminal charges? Unlikely. You can't be prsoectued for taking or being under the influence of any illegal substance. I could see where some people might say it to avoid hassle at home though.

BTW I don't mean to scaremonger with my other post about comatose people etc, but my point is that if the cops didn't issue a warning and someone turned up dead, there'd be hell to pay...better safe than sorry...

d0gb0y

Deleted User wrote: »

Why on earth would you spike someones drink? seriously? what kind of kick would you get out of spiking everyone's drink? If it's true i really hope they get what they deserve. However, if what d0gb0y said is true (and I have no reason to believe it isn't) it's more likely that the people in hospital, when being questioned by gardai, claimed they knew nothing about it so as not to face criminal charges?

Its to save themselves from getting into trouble much easiar to say your drink must of been spiked than rat on friends or admit that you drank to much and lost control of yourself/blackout

Wertz

d0gb0y wrote: »

There is no one lying in bed comatose from this stuff, in fact it makes a brilliant hangover cure, alcohol is the problem here not GHB. GHB has never caused a single death compare that to alcohol

Thx for clarification of legality, must have been made illegal recently

2003 following a rise in deaths and reports of hospitilisation. Up until then you could buy it in clubs and sex shops.

We're talking about an Irish house party here...you honestly think there hasn't been copious amount of booze involved? Imagine the scenario where someone at the party didn't feel too good and f*cked off home, crawled into bed and then the full interaction kicks in...in the absence of someone to check on them the next morning, they could quite feasibly slip into unconsciousness...I'm not saying that it has or will happen(ed), I'm just saying there's a small chance and saying that the cops were right to issue a warning.

Piste

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

Right, because drugs never get any good press, for some reason :rolleyes:

Well yeah, obviously. I'm not disputing that, I just have an issue with over-hyping the dangers of drugs and causing people unneccessary fear.

Well, I really hope that the people who took this stuff took it themselves and weren't hospitalised because of some sickos idea of a joke.

Either way, I do hope they all make a full recovery. It's easy for people to say "they took drugs deal with the consequences" but that's of no use to their families etc.

d0gb0y

Wertz wrote: »

2003 following a rise in deaths and reports of hospitilisation. Up until then you could buy it in clubs and sex shops.

We're talking about an Irish house party here...you honestly think there hasn't been copious amount of booze involved? Imagine the scenario where someone at the party didn't feel too good and f*cked off home, crawled into bed and then the full interaction kicks in...in the absence of someone to check on them the next morning, they could quite feasibly slip into unconsciousness...I'm not saying that it has or will happen(ed), I'm just saying there's a small chance and saying that the cops were right to issue a warning.

Never heard of a single attributable death to it, from what I understand it passes through very quickly so its very hard to actually confirm if it caused a death. The problem really with is its not a very strong drug so it tends to be mixed with other stuff which probably where the deaths come from if any.

WeWillBeReborn

Piste wrote: »

Well yeah, obviously. I'm not disputing that, I just have an issue with over-hyping the dangers of drugs and causing people unneccessary fear.

Drugs are dangerous, I don't see any problem with over-hyping the dangers tbh.

In my opinion, anyone who takes drugs intentionally knows the risks, and accept the possible consequences. So if over-playing things will stop some people from taking them and potentially dying, I'd see that as a victory.

El Weirdo

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

Drugs are dangerous, I don't see any problem with over-hyping the dangers tbh.

In my opinion, anyone who takes drugs intentionally knows the risks, and accept the possible consequences. So if over-playing things will stop some people from taking them and potentially dying, I'd see that as a victory.

Which drugs exactly? What are you defining as a drug? Quite a broad statement you've made there.

d0gb0y

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

Drugs are dangerous, I don't see any problem with over-hyping the dangers tbh.

In my opinion, anyone who takes drugs intentionally knows the risks, and accept the possible consequences. So if over-playing things will stop some people from taking them and potentially dying, I'd see that as a victory.

Thats a broad sweeping brush you apply, most drugs themselves are not dangerous, the real problem comes from the politcal class deciding what should be and shouldn't be legal is the problem, thereby pushing the production and distribution into criminal hands.

Wertz

d0gb0y wrote: »

Never heard of a single attributable death to it, from what I understand it passes through very quickly so its very hard to actually confirm if it caused a death. The problem really with is its not a very strong drug so it tends to be mixed with other stuff which probably where the deaths come from if any.

From all that I've read dating back about 7-8 years, it's interaction with alcohol is the cause of any deaths involved, since they are both CNS depressants and also the subjective effect of the amount of alcohol a person usually drinks (ie those that have a higher average alcohol intake, have a body chemistry that sets them up for a more pronounced reaction to GHB.
Death is caused by respiratory depression (the body "forgetting" to breath) and the old rockstar favourite, inhaling your own vomit.

You should read that wiki and the reference links...on it's own it is considered less harmful than tobbaco...just like so mnay drugs that have a lethal interaction with alcohol.

WeWillBeReborn

El Weirdo wrote: »

Which drugs exactly? What are you defining as a drug? Quite a broad statement you've made there.

Alcohol. Cigarettes. Ecstacy, etc. There are loads of ads stating the dangers with these. And if those dangers are exaggerated, and that exaggeration prevents someone from dying from them, I think it's worth it.

Food as well. If you eat too much, you become obese and may have a poorer quality of like. If ads promote the dangers of it and it stops people from eating too much, then good for them.

d0gb0y

Wertz wrote: »

From all that I've read dating back about 7-8 years, it's interaction with alcohol is the cause of any deaths involved, since they are both CNS depressants and also the subjective effect of the amount of alcohol a person usually drinks (ie those that have a higher average alcohol intake, have a body chemistry that sets them up for a more pronounced reaction to GHB.
Death is caused by respiratory depression (the body "forgetting" to breath) and the old rockstar favourite, inhaling your own vomit.

You should read that wiki and the reference links...on it's own it is considered less harmful than tobbaco...just like so mnay drugs that have a lethal interaction with alcohol.

I researched it years ago when I had an interest in it but alas I moved onto harder stuff

So it really needs a warning label like all those prescribed drugs "don't mix with alcohol":D

El Weirdo

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

Alcohol. Cigarettes. Ecstacy, etc. There are loads of ads stating the dangers with these. And if those dangers are exaggerated, and that exaggeration prevents someone from dying from them, I think it's worth it.

Food as well. If you eat too much, you become obese and may have a poorer quality of like. If ads promote the dangers of it and it stops people from eating too much, then good for them.

So, let everyone make their decisions based on misinformation?

d0gb0y

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

Alcohol. Cigarettes. Ecstacy, etc. There are loads of ads stating the dangers with these. And if those dangers are exaggerated, and that exaggeration prevents someone from dying from them, I think it's worth it.

Food as well. If you eat too much, you become obese and may have a poorer quality of like. If ads promote the dangers of it and it stops people from eating too much, then good for them.

They really only started adversting how bad tobacco/alcohol are in the last decade as these 2 drugs have there own very powerful lobby groups in every country.

You can eat enormous amounts of food if you eat the right type of food and burn it off without ever becoming obese although not everyone is suited to this.

Ecstasy by itself isn't a dangerous substance to every person its only some people who will be badly affected by it kinda like peanuts

Wertz

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

Alcohol. Cigarettes. Ecstacy, etc. There are loads of ads stating the dangers with these. And if those dangers are exaggerated, and that exaggeration prevents someone from dying from them, I think it's worth it.

Food as well. If you eat too much, you become obese and may have a poorer quality of like. If ads promote the dangers of it and it stops people from eating too much, then good for them.

The trouble with over-hyping dangers about all drugs, is that when people go and test them out irregardless 9usually starting with drink), they find that the effects aren't what the big bad man from the gubberment said and aren't accurate at all.
Balanced and targetted health messages do as much as what you can hope to achieve.
I was told all through school that cannabis is bad, this is bad the other's bad....I was told the same about heroin and cocaine...so I went and tried cannabis (after booze n fags mind) and guess what? I didn't die, I didn't jump off a tall building...in fact 20 years on I'm still smoking it.
Then take cocaine...same set of health warnings and hyperbole...but because I'd heard the same alarmist nonsense about that as I'd heard about cannabis, the warning tends to loose it's effect. Big mistake, because coke IS dangerous and addicitve and all those other things they told us....but because they hype EVERY danger associated with everythign they don't want society taking, they end up crying wolf and the real danger messages can be left to go unheeded....hence your heroin and cocaine problems and probably your soon to be crystal meth problems too...

But by all means, pull a chicken lickin on it...sky's fall in all the time right?

[edit] Food? No doubt you've heard of the modern afflicition of anorexia. Food is required to survive...that some people decide to eat themslves into obesity for whatever reason is down to personal choice.

WeWillBeReborn

El Weirdo wrote: »

So, let everyone make their decisions based on misinformation?

If it could ultimately save their lives, yes

d0gb0y wrote: »

They really only started adversting how bad tobacco/alcohol are in the last decade as these 2 drugs have there own very powerful lobby groups in every country.

You can eat enormous amounts of food if you eat the right type of food and burn it off without ever becoming obese although not everyone is suited to this.

Ecstasy by itself isn't a dangerous substance to every person its only some people who will be badly affected by it kinda like peanuts

Tobacco and alcohol only have strong lobby groups because it makes companies money and they could't be bothered trying to give it up

So do we put a warning on food packets that say "Eating excessively will cause obesity, unless you get off your a$$ and exercise it off"?

Do we put warnings on ecstacy that say "This probably won't harn you"?

WeWillBeReborn

Wertz wrote: »

The trouble with over-hyping dangers about all drugs, is that when people go and test them out irregardless 9usually starting with drink), they find that the effects aren't what the big bad man from the gubberment said and aren't accurate at all.
Balanced and targetted health messages do as much as what you can hope to achieve.
I was told all through school that cannabis is bad, this is bad the other's bad....I was told the same about heroin and cocaine...so I went and tried cannabis (after booze n fags mind) and guess what? I didn't die, I didn't jump off a tall building...in fact 20 years on I'm still smoking it.
Then take cocaine...same set of health warnings and hyperbole...but because I'd heard the same alarmist nonsense about that as I'd heard about cannabis, the warning tends to loose it's effect. Big mistake, because coke IS dangerous and addicitve and all those other things they told us....but because they hype EVERY danger associated with everythign they don't want society taking, they end up crying wolf and the real danger messages can be left to go unheeded....hence your heroin and cocaine problems and probably your soon to be crystal meth problems too...

But by all means, pull a chicken lickin on it...sky's fall in all the time right?

[edit] Food? No doubt you've heard of the modern afflicition of anorexia. Food is required to survive...that some people decide to eat themslves into obesity for whatever reason is down to personal choice.

I think if you're warned that something is dangerous and you die from it, it's your own damn fault, not the governments

Edit regards your food edit: That's what I said. If someone eats themselves into obesity it's their own damn fault. I never said "Don't eat". I said "Eating too much is dangerous"

El Weirdo

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

I think if you're warned that something is dangerous and you die from it, it's your own damn fault, not the governments

But why should we believe the government if they're feeding us misinformation?