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Child Item

GHB blamed in party hospitalisations...

Wertz

On the radio news this morning several reports about a number (ranging 4-11) of partygoers in NW Dublin being taken to hospital suffering from overdose/poisoning/interaction from a substance they insist on referring to as "liquid ecstasy"
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1101/dublin.html

Just like to clear up for some of our journalistic readers and such that this substance is in fact GHB:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Hydroxybutyric_acid

and bears no relation either chemically or in any other way to what is commonly known as ecstasy or MDMA to give it it's proper acronym.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA

What's prompted me to post this was a small piece I caught on Marian Finnucane's show just after the midday news, where she and another panel member went on a little moralistic hand wringing excercise about this "liquid ecstasy" and then tried to draw some correlation between the story and sacking or Prof Nutt in the UK earlier this week as regarding his comments on MDMA.
That is just wrong on so many levels that I don't know where to begin. For a start as pointed out, they are two completely different substances. For another, GHB is currently scheduled class C in the UK (not sure about Ireland), whereas MDMA is still class A.
Last point, Nutt was ousted for his comments regarding cannabis classification and it's associated risks. Ms Finnucane's little outburst shows her and her reserchers up for the overpaid tongue waggers they really are...if these people are to be tasked with informing and commenting to the general public on news items they could at least get their facts straight before they put them to air.

I'm not sure what I expect from this post. I'm sure most of you could give two damns what these people have taken, that it's all illgeal drugs and that they expect what they get.
Thing is that GHB was perfectly legal in the UK up until 2003, MDMA has been at the top of the classifcation charts since the late 80's.
I've never taken the stuff (GHB): I've always been a little shy about drinking something made from various under-the-sink chemicals myself, but I've read a lot about it...the one thing that was always made clear about it was it's high interaction level with alcohol and how much more likely it is to be fatal when used in combination (99% likely to be a contributing factor in this case)
A good piece on it here for those that care to read it.
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/ghb/legal.html

So all that aside, anyone taken it out there? Any thoughts regarding it? Did you drink alcohol whilst using it?

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d0gb0y

Wertz wrote: »

I don't think it's scaremongering on behalf of AGS...someone somewhere could be lieing in their bed comatosed or worse...if the warning prevents a death then it's well worth it...I just wish they'd make the distinction so as not to tar MDMA with the same brush (althouh like I said that would suit most people)...

There is no one lying in bed comatose from this stuff, in fact it makes a brilliant hangover cure, alcohol is the problem here not GHB. GHB has never caused a single death compare that to alcohol

Thx for clarification of legality, must have been made illegal recently

WeWillBeReborn

Deleted User wrote: »

Why on earth would you spike someones drink? seriously? what kind of kick would you get out of spiking everyone's drink? If it's true i really hope they get what they deserve. However, if what d0gb0y said is true (and I have no reason to believe it isn't) it's more likely that the people in hospital, when being questioned by gardai, claimed they knew nothing about it so as not to face criminal charges?

I reckon the Gardai figured that out as well. But if you were the Garda that asked them which would you rather: finding out if other people had been 'spiked' and finding out the answer is no, or assuming they are lying and finding out it did happen to someone else?

I'm not saying they were spiked, none of us know exactly what happened, I'm just explaining why the Gardai are asking if it happened to anyone else.

Wertz

Deleted User wrote: »

Why on earth would you spike someones drink? seriously? what kind of kick would you get out of spiking everyone's drink? If it's true i really hope they get what they deserve. However, if what d0gb0y said is true (and I have no reason to believe it isn't) it's more likely that the people in hospital, when being questioned by gardai, claimed they knew nothing about it so as not to face criminal charges?

It's what some people do...it's hard to reason. I've been at parties where LSD or E's were lobbed into bottles and handed to people for the craic.
Motives range from wanting to see someone's reaction, to take the mick out of them and all the way to having non-consensual sex with them.

As for people claiming they've been spiked to avoid criminal charges? Unlikely. You can't be prsoectued for taking or being under the influence of any illegal substance. I could see where some people might say it to avoid hassle at home though.

BTW I don't mean to scaremonger with my other post about comatose people etc, but my point is that if the cops didn't issue a warning and someone turned up dead, there'd be hell to pay...better safe than sorry...

d0gb0y

Deleted User wrote: »

Why on earth would you spike someones drink? seriously? what kind of kick would you get out of spiking everyone's drink? If it's true i really hope they get what they deserve. However, if what d0gb0y said is true (and I have no reason to believe it isn't) it's more likely that the people in hospital, when being questioned by gardai, claimed they knew nothing about it so as not to face criminal charges?

Its to save themselves from getting into trouble much easiar to say your drink must of been spiked than rat on friends or admit that you drank to much and lost control of yourself/blackout

Wertz

d0gb0y wrote: »

There is no one lying in bed comatose from this stuff, in fact it makes a brilliant hangover cure, alcohol is the problem here not GHB. GHB has never caused a single death compare that to alcohol

Thx for clarification of legality, must have been made illegal recently

2003 following a rise in deaths and reports of hospitilisation. Up until then you could buy it in clubs and sex shops.

We're talking about an Irish house party here...you honestly think there hasn't been copious amount of booze involved? Imagine the scenario where someone at the party didn't feel too good and f*cked off home, crawled into bed and then the full interaction kicks in...in the absence of someone to check on them the next morning, they could quite feasibly slip into unconsciousness...I'm not saying that it has or will happen(ed), I'm just saying there's a small chance and saying that the cops were right to issue a warning.

Piste

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

Right, because drugs never get any good press, for some reason :rolleyes:

Well yeah, obviously. I'm not disputing that, I just have an issue with over-hyping the dangers of drugs and causing people unneccessary fear.

[Deleted User]

Well, I really hope that the people who took this stuff took it themselves and weren't hospitalised because of some sickos idea of a joke.

Either way, I do hope they all make a full recovery. It's easy for people to say "they took drugs deal with the consequences" but that's of no use to their families etc.

d0gb0y

Wertz wrote: »

2003 following a rise in deaths and reports of hospitilisation. Up until then you could buy it in clubs and sex shops.

We're talking about an Irish house party here...you honestly think there hasn't been copious amount of booze involved? Imagine the scenario where someone at the party didn't feel too good and f*cked off home, crawled into bed and then the full interaction kicks in...in the absence of someone to check on them the next morning, they could quite feasibly slip into unconsciousness...I'm not saying that it has or will happen(ed), I'm just saying there's a small chance and saying that the cops were right to issue a warning.

Never heard of a single attributable death to it, from what I understand it passes through very quickly so its very hard to actually confirm if it caused a death. The problem really with is its not a very strong drug so it tends to be mixed with other stuff which probably where the deaths come from if any.

WeWillBeReborn

Piste wrote: »

Well yeah, obviously. I'm not disputing that, I just have an issue with over-hyping the dangers of drugs and causing people unneccessary fear.

Drugs are dangerous, I don't see any problem with over-hyping the dangers tbh.

In my opinion, anyone who takes drugs intentionally knows the risks, and accept the possible consequences. So if over-playing things will stop some people from taking them and potentially dying, I'd see that as a victory.

El Weirdo

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

Drugs are dangerous, I don't see any problem with over-hyping the dangers tbh.

In my opinion, anyone who takes drugs intentionally knows the risks, and accept the possible consequences. So if over-playing things will stop some people from taking them and potentially dying, I'd see that as a victory.

Which drugs exactly? What are you defining as a drug? Quite a broad statement you've made there.

d0gb0y

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

Drugs are dangerous, I don't see any problem with over-hyping the dangers tbh.

In my opinion, anyone who takes drugs intentionally knows the risks, and accept the possible consequences. So if over-playing things will stop some people from taking them and potentially dying, I'd see that as a victory.

Thats a broad sweeping brush you apply, most drugs themselves are not dangerous, the real problem comes from the politcal class deciding what should be and shouldn't be legal is the problem, thereby pushing the production and distribution into criminal hands.

Wertz

d0gb0y wrote: »

Never heard of a single attributable death to it, from what I understand it passes through very quickly so its very hard to actually confirm if it caused a death. The problem really with is its not a very strong drug so it tends to be mixed with other stuff which probably where the deaths come from if any.

From all that I've read dating back about 7-8 years, it's interaction with alcohol is the cause of any deaths involved, since they are both CNS depressants and also the subjective effect of the amount of alcohol a person usually drinks (ie those that have a higher average alcohol intake, have a body chemistry that sets them up for a more pronounced reaction to GHB.
Death is caused by respiratory depression (the body "forgetting" to breath) and the old rockstar favourite, inhaling your own vomit.

You should read that wiki and the reference links...on it's own it is considered less harmful than tobbaco...just like so mnay drugs that have a lethal interaction with alcohol.

WeWillBeReborn

El Weirdo wrote: »

Which drugs exactly? What are you defining as a drug? Quite a broad statement you've made there.

Alcohol. Cigarettes. Ecstacy, etc. There are loads of ads stating the dangers with these. And if those dangers are exaggerated, and that exaggeration prevents someone from dying from them, I think it's worth it.

Food as well. If you eat too much, you become obese and may have a poorer quality of like. If ads promote the dangers of it and it stops people from eating too much, then good for them.

d0gb0y

Wertz wrote: »

From all that I've read dating back about 7-8 years, it's interaction with alcohol is the cause of any deaths involved, since they are both CNS depressants and also the subjective effect of the amount of alcohol a person usually drinks (ie those that have a higher average alcohol intake, have a body chemistry that sets them up for a more pronounced reaction to GHB.
Death is caused by respiratory depression (the body "forgetting" to breath) and the old rockstar favourite, inhaling your own vomit.

You should read that wiki and the reference links...on it's own it is considered less harmful than tobbaco...just like so mnay drugs that have a lethal interaction with alcohol.

I researched it years ago when I had an interest in it but alas I moved onto harder stuff

So it really needs a warning label like all those prescribed drugs "don't mix with alcohol":D

El Weirdo

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

Alcohol. Cigarettes. Ecstacy, etc. There are loads of ads stating the dangers with these. And if those dangers are exaggerated, and that exaggeration prevents someone from dying from them, I think it's worth it.

Food as well. If you eat too much, you become obese and may have a poorer quality of like. If ads promote the dangers of it and it stops people from eating too much, then good for them.

So, let everyone make their decisions based on misinformation?

d0gb0y

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

Alcohol. Cigarettes. Ecstacy, etc. There are loads of ads stating the dangers with these. And if those dangers are exaggerated, and that exaggeration prevents someone from dying from them, I think it's worth it.

Food as well. If you eat too much, you become obese and may have a poorer quality of like. If ads promote the dangers of it and it stops people from eating too much, then good for them.

They really only started adversting how bad tobacco/alcohol are in the last decade as these 2 drugs have there own very powerful lobby groups in every country.

You can eat enormous amounts of food if you eat the right type of food and burn it off without ever becoming obese although not everyone is suited to this.

Ecstasy by itself isn't a dangerous substance to every person its only some people who will be badly affected by it kinda like peanuts

Wertz

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

Alcohol. Cigarettes. Ecstacy, etc. There are loads of ads stating the dangers with these. And if those dangers are exaggerated, and that exaggeration prevents someone from dying from them, I think it's worth it.

Food as well. If you eat too much, you become obese and may have a poorer quality of like. If ads promote the dangers of it and it stops people from eating too much, then good for them.

The trouble with over-hyping dangers about all drugs, is that when people go and test them out irregardless 9usually starting with drink), they find that the effects aren't what the big bad man from the gubberment said and aren't accurate at all.
Balanced and targetted health messages do as much as what you can hope to achieve.
I was told all through school that cannabis is bad, this is bad the other's bad....I was told the same about heroin and cocaine...so I went and tried cannabis (after booze n fags mind) and guess what? I didn't die, I didn't jump off a tall building...in fact 20 years on I'm still smoking it.
Then take cocaine...same set of health warnings and hyperbole...but because I'd heard the same alarmist nonsense about that as I'd heard about cannabis, the warning tends to loose it's effect. Big mistake, because coke IS dangerous and addicitve and all those other things they told us....but because they hype EVERY danger associated with everythign they don't want society taking, they end up crying wolf and the real danger messages can be left to go unheeded....hence your heroin and cocaine problems and probably your soon to be crystal meth problems too...

But by all means, pull a chicken lickin on it...sky's fall in all the time right?

[edit] Food? No doubt you've heard of the modern afflicition of anorexia. Food is required to survive...that some people decide to eat themslves into obesity for whatever reason is down to personal choice.

WeWillBeReborn

El Weirdo wrote: »

So, let everyone make their decisions based on misinformation?

If it could ultimately save their lives, yes

d0gb0y wrote: »

They really only started adversting how bad tobacco/alcohol are in the last decade as these 2 drugs have there own very powerful lobby groups in every country.

You can eat enormous amounts of food if you eat the right type of food and burn it off without ever becoming obese although not everyone is suited to this.

Ecstasy by itself isn't a dangerous substance to every person its only some people who will be badly affected by it kinda like peanuts

Tobacco and alcohol only have strong lobby groups because it makes companies money and they could't be bothered trying to give it up

So do we put a warning on food packets that say "Eating excessively will cause obesity, unless you get off your a$$ and exercise it off"?

Do we put warnings on ecstacy that say "This probably won't harn you"?

WeWillBeReborn

Wertz wrote: »

The trouble with over-hyping dangers about all drugs, is that when people go and test them out irregardless 9usually starting with drink), they find that the effects aren't what the big bad man from the gubberment said and aren't accurate at all.
Balanced and targetted health messages do as much as what you can hope to achieve.
I was told all through school that cannabis is bad, this is bad the other's bad....I was told the same about heroin and cocaine...so I went and tried cannabis (after booze n fags mind) and guess what? I didn't die, I didn't jump off a tall building...in fact 20 years on I'm still smoking it.
Then take cocaine...same set of health warnings and hyperbole...but because I'd heard the same alarmist nonsense about that as I'd heard about cannabis, the warning tends to loose it's effect. Big mistake, because coke IS dangerous and addicitve and all those other things they told us....but because they hype EVERY danger associated with everythign they don't want society taking, they end up crying wolf and the real danger messages can be left to go unheeded....hence your heroin and cocaine problems and probably your soon to be crystal meth problems too...

But by all means, pull a chicken lickin on it...sky's fall in all the time right?

[edit] Food? No doubt you've heard of the modern afflicition of anorexia. Food is required to survive...that some people decide to eat themslves into obesity for whatever reason is down to personal choice.

I think if you're warned that something is dangerous and you die from it, it's your own damn fault, not the governments

Edit regards your food edit: That's what I said. If someone eats themselves into obesity it's their own damn fault. I never said "Don't eat". I said "Eating too much is dangerous"

El Weirdo

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

I think if you're warned that something is dangerous and you die from it, it's your own damn fault, not the governments

But why should we believe the government if they're feeding us misinformation?

Wertz

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

I think if you're warned that something is dangerous and you die from it, it's your own damn fault, not the governments

I agree with you 100%. But in that case shouldn't I be free to take whatever I like without the threat of criminal prosecution?

So say I decide to go and climb a mountain without any real experience...I'm told it's dangerous, hell I KNOW it's dangerous, but I go and do it anyway...and then a few feet from the summit, I loose my footing and fall, breaking something and bleeding badly.
Should a rescue team funded by the government be sent to airlift me to hospital, even though the rescue team are themsleves endangered in the very act of rescuing me? Should precious resources, time and money be spent saving my sorry arse? I believe they should. Most right minded people think so too....

How about crossing the road or driving whilst on the phone...those are dangerous and we're warned about it all the time...yet people do it all the time. By your logic anyone being injured or killed deserved it, because the government tried to warn them.

WeWillBeReborn

El Weirdo wrote: »

But why should we believe the government if they're feeding us misinformation?

Are you saying there are NO side effects to the drugs I mentioned? They're stretching the truth yes, but they're noy lying 100%. Ever hear of bending the rules, not breaking them?

If you don't wanyt to believe the government, fine, that's your choice and I won't try to talk you out of it, I'm just saing that they are doing it for the better good, so I think it's okay

Herbal Deity

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

Drugs are dangerous, I don't see any problem with over-hyping the dangers tbh.

In my opinion, anyone who takes drugs intentionally knows the risks, and accept the possible consequences. So if over-playing things will stop some people from taking them and potentially dying, I'd see that as a victory.

Over-hyping the risks of drugs reduces the credibility of the group doing so.

I don't think I know anyone who has any time for what the government or anti-drugs groups in this country say about drugs, because they make so many exaggerated and false claims and it's all so transparent to anyone with half a brain.

WeWillBeReborn

Wertz wrote: »

I agree with you 100%. But in that case shouldn't I be free to take whatever I like without the threat of criminal prosecution?

So say I decide to go and climb a mountain without any real experience...I'm told it's dangerous, hell I KNOW it's dangerous, but I go and do it anyway...and then a few feet from the summit, I loose my footing and fall, breaking something and bleeding badly.
Should a rescue team funded by the government be sent to airlift me to hospital, even though the rescue team are themsleves endangered in the very act of rescuing me? Should precious resources, time and money be spent saving my sorry arse? I believe they should. Most right minded people think so too....

How about crossing the road or driving whilst on the phone...those are dangerous and we're warned about it all the time...yet people do it all the time. By your logic anyone being injured or killed deserved it, because the government tried to warn them.

By that twisted version of my logic, people who OD shouldn't be allowed into hospital. I never said they shouldn't be helped. I said that it would be their fault for it happening, I never said we should then do nothing to help them.

WeWillBeReborn

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Over-hyping the risks of drugs reduces the credibility of the group doing so.

I don't think I know anyone who has any time for what the government or anti-drugs groups in this country say about drugs, because they make so many exaggerated and false claims and it's all so transparent to anyone with half a brain.

True, but if it didn't work to some extent, they would have stopped by now

d0gb0y

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

Are you saying there are NO side effects to the drugs I mentioned? They're stretching the truth yes, but they're noy lying 100%. Ever hear of bending the rules, not breaking them?

If you don't wanyt to believe the government, fine, that's your choice and I won't try to talk you out of it, I'm just saing that they are doing it for the better good, so I think it's okay

I diagree, they are not doing it for the better good when you look at the crimilization of drugs it has a huge detrimental effect on society as a whole and thats not even counting the FACT that drugs are here to stay and will never go away no matter what they try to do.
There is only one way to approach this problem and its through the decrimilization of drugs, not a chance of FF ever doing that...ffs they made mushies illegal.

El Weirdo

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

Are you saying there are NO side effects to the drugs I mentioned? They're stretching the truth yes, but they're noy lying 100%. Ever hear of bending the rules, not breaking them?

If you don't wanyt to believe the government, fine, that's your choice and I won't try to talk you out of it, I'm just saing that they are doing it for the better good, so I think it's okay

Where did I say there were no side effects?

And what Herbal Deity said.

d0gb0y

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

True, but if it didn't work to some extent, they would have stopped by now

Theres a lot of money/votes and political appaluse involved in keeping this thing going for as long as they can

WeWillBeReborn

Okay, obviously none of us is going to convince the other of our opinions, and we've dragged this thread WAY off-topic, so I'll finish with this

El Weirdo wrote: »

Where did I say there were no side effects?

And what Herbal Deity said.

Okay you didn't, but you gave the impression that you thought everything they said about drugs is false, which it isn't

d0gb0y wrote: »

I diagree, they are not doing it for the better good when you look at the crimilization of drugs it has a huge detrimental effect on society as a whole and thats not even counting the FACT that drugs are here to stay and will never go away no matter what they try to do.
There is only one way to approach this problem and its through the decrimilization of drugs, not a chance of FF ever doing that...ffs they made mushies illegal.

They can't be critisized for trying to do something about it

Wertz

WeWillBeReborn wrote: »

By that twisted version of my logic, people who OD shouldn't be allowed into hospital. I never said they shouldn't be helped. I said that it would be their fault for it happening, I never said we should then do nothing to help them.

Granted I've used underhand arguing methods....but can you at least see that overhyping the dangers of something is probably counterproductive, irregardless of your personal views on drug taking? If someone takes a substance they've been warned is damging to them but take it anyway, of course they only have themslves to blame...who else would they blame (unless they've taken said substance unwittingly, in which case all the health warnings in the wrord wouldn't have done any good anyway)?