Luas docklands line to open 2nd week of December

darkman2

Says in todays IT........:)

serfboard

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1031/1224257767757.html

The Irish Times wrote:

Separately the Railway Procurement Agency confirmed yesterday that the Luas extension to the Point will open in the first two weeks of December.

The extension from Connolly Station to the point will have stops at George’s Dock, Mayor Square, Spencer Dock and the Point.

Jonathan

Is every tram going to pull in and out of Connolly?

Slice

Didn't someone on here say before that half the trams will terminate in Connolly and the other half at the Point?

rednik

Nothing is definite yet but at the moment the plan is for one in every three trams to go to Connolly.

loyatemu

seeing as they've closed off the amiens st\mayor st junction to all but Luas traffic anyway, the simplest thing to do would have been to move the Connolly stop to where they've put the "triangle" junction and scrapped the Georges Dock stop. That way all trams could run straight through to the Point. The proposed arrangement is a fudge - if you're coming from Connolly to get a tram you will be better off going over to Busaras rather than waiting up to 20 mins at Connolly.

Zebra3

mikemac wrote: »

Why not send all trams to Connolly?
The driver can move from the end carraige to the front carraige and drive on.
Would take maybe a minute or two more then a normal Luas stop

This way, all Luas stops get served

Though I'm sure if this was CIE staff there would a claim for extra money for switching carriages :rolleyes:

It's not CIE staff on the Luas.

mikemac

Zebra3 wrote: »

It's not CIE staff on the Luas.

I know!
Which is why I posted "if this was"

KC61

mikemac wrote: »

Why not send all trams to Connolly?
The driver can move from the end carraige to the front carraige and drive on.
Would take maybe a minute or two more then a normal Luas stop

This way, all Luas stops get served

Though I'm sure if this was CIE staff there would a claim for extra money for switching carriages :rolleyes:

A tad unfair as it happens every day on Irish Rail at Killarney (twice on every train), Kilkenny, Limerick Junction (on trains to/from Waterford), Rosslare Europort (on the Limerick Junction-Enniscorthy service) and will happen at Athenry when the Limerick-Galway service starts.

Mint Sauce

dont live in dublin, dont use the luas too often, but use both connolly and bus aruas, couple of points,

always thought it was a waste having two stops so close together, its not much of a walk between the two and a shared stop might have made more sence and saved money, ssecondly, with the extention on to docklands thought my self would some trams stop and termiate at connolly and would some bypass, for trams by passing, people wishing to go to connolly would need to know to get of at bus aruas or the stop on the other side of connolly

would it make sence or is there the space to create a new stop on the extention close to connolly and use the space left from the exsisting termini stop for buses or taxis instead

Aard

Yes I had always thought too that the proximity of the two stops would make Connolly redundant once the Docklands extension opened - people would just get whichever direction tram came first, and would consider it lucky if they got on a Connolly-bound one.

Judgement Day

Call me stupid but I would have thought the Connolly Stop is of far more use than the entire Dockland extension which I suspect will turn out to be no busier than the Clonsilla/Docklands IE service. I suspect that anyone suggesting that Connolly Stop should be eliminated is NOT a regular user of the service which is, as it stands, a model of how interchange between train and tram should be organised. While the Docklands Luas extension is welcome the majority of trams should operate to and from Connolly.

AlekSmart

Judgement Day : Call me stupid but I would have thought the Connolly Stop is of far more use than the entire Dockland extension which I suspect will turn out to be no busier than the Clonsilla/Docklands IE service.

Im with JD on this one.
The Recession/Depression Internal Cleansing of 2008/2009 and future years has dealt rather a harsh blow to the notion of "Docklands" as some form of fresh,exciting urban living space.

"Docklands" is even fighting for it`s commercial life as the affordable empty commercial space stacks up all around the Capital.

The only real source of income looks like being the Oh2 for events and concerts and even that will be somewhat patchy.

What we are currently seeing is the culmination of yet more fudge and flyttering about by Policy Makers which sees the Tram as just some sort of Plaything rather than an integral part of a functioning Capital City`s infrastructure.

Interestingly enough in the light of Mikemac`s opinion....

Though I'm sure if this was CIE staff there would a claim for extra money for switching carriages

Recent murmourings of discontent within Veolia`s platform staff regarding working hours and conditions may yet bubble over,although it must be admitted that SIPTU have run a very clean-ship in the single-union environment they run.

MiniD

It's going to be interesting to see what they decide to do with Connolly. While it is a busy stop, it is actually quicker to get off the tram at Busaras and walk to Connolly than it is to remain on the tram while it crawls across Amiens Street and then waits for the signal to pull into the platform. The stops are ridiculously close. You wouldn't have two bus stops as close, never mind two Luas platforms.

If the suggestions above are correct and certain trams are terminating at Connolly, then it stops being a frequent service. As already mentioned, you will end up with gaps of 20 minutes at Connolly and occasional long gaps on the Docklands extension.

Perhaps a solution would be to have a Docklands to Connolly shuttle operating in addition to a less frequent red line service between Connolly and The Point?

I don't agree with the idea that the Docklands area is not busy. There are thousands of people working along this new extension. The o2, the new Point Village and the new convention centre will bring many more into the area. The opening of Macken Street Bridge will also mean access to Grand Canal Dock for Luas passengers.

As someone who works in the Docklands, I am very excited about the arrival of the tram.

Nostradamus

Zebra3 wrote: »

It's not CIE staff on the Luas.

The man put "if" in the sentence.

KC61

MiniD wrote: »

It's going to be interesting to see what they decide to do with Connolly. While it is a busy stop, it is actually quicker to get off the tram at Busaras and walk to Connolly than it is to remain on the tram while it crawls across Amiens Street and then waits for the signal to pull into the platform. The stops are ridiculously close. You wouldn't have two bus stops as close, never mind two Luas platforms.

If the suggestions above are correct and certain trams are terminating at Connolly, then it stops being a frequent service. As already mentioned, you will end up with gaps of 20 minutes at Connolly and occasional long gaps on the Docklands extension.

Perhaps a solution would be to have a Docklands to Connolly shuttle operating in addition to a less frequent red line service between Connolly and The Point?

I don't agree with the idea that the Docklands area is not busy. There are thousands of people working along this new extension. The o2, the new Point Village and the new convention centre will bring many more into the area. The opening of Macken Street Bridge will also mean access to Grand Canal Dock for Luas passengers.

As someone who works in the Docklands, I am very excited about the arrival of the tram.

I suspect that at peak periods trams will alternate between Connolly and Docklands, whilst off-peak trams will operate via Connolly.

As for numbers, the fact that the 151 bus has reasonably decent loadings east of O'Connell Bridge is testament to the demand.

Nostradamus

Call me stupid but I would have thought the Connolly Stop is of far more use than the entire Dockland extension which I suspect will turn out to be no busier than the Clonsilla/Docklands IE service.

Eh, one major difference. The Luas to the Point won't be closed for 20 hours a day like IE's Dockland station...

They said the same about the other Luas lines and they broke all passenger projections.

The Point/O2 has a terrible public transport defict when it comes to events at the arena. Mind you, it wouldn't if CIE realised it has a brand new train station next to all this massive potential customer base and ACTUALLY USED IT.

Luas is a proven public transport cherry buster. It brings people to public transport that otherwise would drive.

AlekSmart

The Point/O2 has a terrible public transport defict when it comes to events at the arena. Mind you, it wouldn't if CIE realised it has a brand new train station next to all this massive potential customer base and ACTUALLY USED IT.

Ah here now Nostradamus,next thing you`ll be predicting a Railway line running underneath Croke Park or some such incredibble stuff

Hungerford

I'm a bit concerned about the potential for collisions at the triangle junction. The Luas doesn't really have a proper signal system as such and it also has driver operated points. It sounds like a recipe for disaster at such a relatively complex junction.

Poxyshamrock

KC61 wrote: »

I suspect that at peak periods trams will alternate between Connolly and Docklands, whilst off-peak trams will operate via Connolly.

As for numbers, the fact that the 151 bus has reasonably decent loadings east of O'Connell Bridge is testament to the demand.

So off peak it won't operate to the point? :eek:

loyatemu

I work in the IFSC and when I use the Luas I always use Busaras rather than Connolly even though the latter is closer. Going towards town, you can watch out for the tram leaving Connolly and leg it across the road if there's one coming. Coming back you can get off at Busaras, cross the road beside the tram, and by the time it has pulled into Connolly you're already walking into the IFSC.

One stop, where the triangle is, could replace Connolly, Busaras and Georges dock - the proposed solution is nonsensical.

BTW - I expect this extension to be pretty successful - there are a lot of people working in the IFSC who will use the GD and Mayor Square stops (also NCI is beside the MS stop). Spencer Dock, despite the numerous ghost-buildings also has a number of large occupied office buildings. The Point stop will obviously only get much use when there are concerts on. Also, the near-simultaneous opening of the Beckett Bridge will bring the south docks into the catchment area for the line.

Nostradamus

Hungerford wrote: »

I'm a bit concerned about the potential for collisions at the triangle junction. The Luas doesn't really have a proper signal system as such and it also has driver operated points. It sounds like a recipe for disaster at such a relatively complex junction.

Classic Joe Duffy Callerism. Let's also close down Dublin airport because airplanes can crash!!!!!!!

For God sake I was in Vienna a while back and the trams there belt around these junctions constantly with road traffic and contray to how you make it seem its not an endless Hollywood pyrotechnic disaster scene.

There is nothing dangerous about the Connelly/Busaras tram junction.

Am I the only person in this country who is sick and tired of this Oirish mentality that if it's a new thing for us, it is automatically fraught with potential danger...

Aard

"Recipe for disaster" is certainly a bit over the top.

L1011

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

So off peak it won't operate to the point? :eek:

They can run up the triangle in to Connolly and back out again.

Judgement Day

loyatemu wrote: »

I work in the IFSC and when I use the Luas I always use Busaras rather than Connolly even though the latter is closer. Going towards town, you can watch out for the tram leaving Connolly and leg it across the road if there's one coming. Coming back you can get off at Busaras, cross the road beside the tram, and by the time it has pulled into Connolly you're already walking into the IFSC.

One stop, where the triangle is, could replace Connolly, Busaras and Georges dock - the proposed solution is nonsensical.

BTW - I expect this extension to be pretty successful - there are a lot of people working in the IFSC who will use the GD and Mayor Square stops (also NCI is beside the MS stop). Spencer Dock, despite the numerous ghost-buildings also has a number of large occupied office buildings. The Point stop will obviously only get much use when there are concerts on. Also, the near-simultaneous opening of the Beckett Bridge will bring the south docks into the catchment area for the line.

I have to strongly disagree with you - while YOU may not mind the extra distance between Busarus and Connolly and running the gauntlet of traffic - what about those who are old, or with kids or luggage and on the occasional day when it rains in Dublin!!! A perfectly good link is in place and should not be sacrificed for the sake of yuppies heading to what's left of the financial services quarter.

loyatemu

Judgement Day wrote: »

I have to strongly disagree with you - while YOU may not mind the extra distance between Busarus and Connolly and running the gauntlet of traffic - what about those who are old, or with kids or luggage and on the occasional day when it rains in Dublin!!!

its already a fair hike from the platforms in Connolly to the Luas - this would be an extra 100m or so, and they wouldn't have to run any gauntlet - the new stop would still be on the connolly side of amiens st.

Slice

What about a separate service to the Red Line running Connolly-Docklands or Heuston-Docklands? Or even Citywest-Docklands ...when the Citywest extension opens.

Victor

Hungerford wrote: »

I'm a bit concerned about the potential for collisions at the triangle junction. The Luas doesn't really have a proper signal system as such and it also has driver operated points. It sounds like a recipe for disaster at such a relatively complex junction.

I don't see it as a problem - looks at all the junctions in the Red Cow depot and there aren't any problems.

I do however expect it to be a tram v person problem. That have even redesigned the junction to reduce such risks.

Slice wrote: »

What about a separate service to the Red Line running Connolly-Docklands or Heuston-Docklands? Or even Citywest-Docklands ...when the Citywest extension opens.

AFAIK the plan is Tallaght-The Point and Citywest-Connolly or somesuch.

rednik

The points from Connolly to the Point will not be used and same for the Point to Connolly these points will also not be used.

KC61

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

So off peak it won't operate to the point? :eek:

That is NOT what I said - I said that I would suspect that they would all go via Connolly and then continue to Docklands.

This is only my guess here - nothing has been cast in stone yet. If people are patient we will find out soon enough when the RPA/Veolia announce the timetables.

Rockshamrover

This section of Luas has to be the most expensive public transport system ever built, anywhere.

What's the distance from connolly to the point? A few miles?

Zebra3

Rockshamrover wrote: »

This section of Luas has to be the most expensive public transport system ever built, anywhere.

I doubt it, considering it's all over ground.

loyatemu

Rockshamrover wrote: »

What's the distance from connolly to the point? A few miles?

a mile. and its taken 3 years to build too.

Hungerford

rednik wrote: »

The points from Connolly to the Point will not be used and same for the Point to Connolly these points will also not be used.

So what the point of installing those points and making the junction unnecessarily complex?

jeckle

rednik wrote: »

The points from Connolly to the Point will not be used and same for the Point to Connolly these points will also not be used.

They will be used by anyone trying to get from Connolly to the Point & from the Point to Connolly & beyond.

markpb

Hungerford wrote: »

So what the point of installing those points and making the junction unnecessarily complex?

Future-proofing. If they need to run services east from Connolly, the work will be done and they won't need to disrupt services to put them in.

jeckle wrote: »

They will be used by anyone trying to get from Connolly to the Point & from the Point to Connolly & beyond.

There are no plans at the moment to run any services from Connolly to the point or vice versa.

KC61

markpb wrote: »

Future-proofing. If they need to run services east from Connolly, the work will be done and they won't need to disrupt services to put them in.



There are no plans at the moment to run any services from Connolly to the point or vice versa.

Not necessarily Mark - The timetable has yet to be decided.

It may well be that off-peak and in the evenings/at weekends trams may operate via Connolly to/from the Point.

antoinolachtnai

I must say, I feel a travelator coming on.

This is a big opportunity to re-craft public transport in the north docklands. Is it possible (track layout and platform capacity-wise) to run trains from the West to Docklands Station rather than Connolly? That would create a substantial two-way business on the Red Line rather than loading everything onto the westerly direction.

rednik

These points will NOT be used. Obviously in the case of an emergency then they will be used but at the moment the plan is not to use them.

jeckle

markpb wrote: »

There are no plans at the moment to run any services from Connolly to the point or vice versa.

There are no plans to close the line from Connolly to Busarus or vice versa, therefore commuters can get to Connolly to the Point & from the Point to Connolly. They will not be prevented from doing so.

KC61

rednik wrote: »

These points will NOT be used. Obviously in the case of an emergency then they will be used but at the moment the plan is not to use them.

Can I ask how you know this, given neither RPA/Veolia have revealed the service pattern yet?

markpb

jeckle wrote: »

There are no plans to close the line from Connolly to Busarus or vice versa, therefore commuters can get to Connolly to the Point & from the Point to Connolly. They will not be prevented from doing so.

That there are no plans to operate a direct tram from Connolly to the Point and vice versa. Of course people can get between those points, they'll just have to walk to Busaras instead. For clarity, here's an email from RPA:

RPA wrote:

Thank you for your e-mail. The schedules are being finalised but the most likely that two out of three trams will continue from Busaras to the Point and one out of three will terminate in Connolly. The final timetable is being will be circulated closer to operation of the new line.

Unless things change, trams will run Tallaght - Connolly or Tallaght - Point but never Tallaght - Connolly - Point.

rednik

I drive the trams and have just completed the first stage of training to the point.

KC61

Fair enough!

Thanks for the update.

Cool Mo D

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I must say, I feel a travelator coming on.

This is a big opportunity to re-craft public transport in the north docklands. Is it possible (track layout and platform capacity-wise) to run trains from the West to Docklands Station rather than Connolly? That would create a substantial two-way business on the Red Line rather than loading everything onto the westerly direction.

It's possible to run the Sligo/Maynooth line to Docklands, but not any other line without a lot of difficulty.

KC61

Cool Mo D wrote: »

It's possible to run the Sligo/Maynooth line to Docklands, but not any other line without a lot of difficulty.

Trains from Pace are planned to operate to/from Docklands.

Nostradamus

Hungerford wrote: »

So what the point of installing those points and making the junction unnecessarily complex?

Because it is standard operating practice all over the world.

The eventual route of the Dockland Luas line is to go over the East Link Bridge to Landsdowne Road. (insert obligatory "but there is already a DART there" (which I will reply "is closed on match days...")

OK I understand in your myopic Orish "Joeeee!!!!" mindset that new fangled things are painful and terrifying to your understanding, so I have taken steps to help you. Because I am a nice man. Let me reach out to you. Together we can get though you fear and terrors.

I am currently holding the 1925 Dublin Tramway map and track routes and guess what. There were 33 such junctions back then in the city of Dublin. Including an amazingly intricate double delta junction at College Green. There were no firey explosion and lakes of blood resulting form these "deadly". "complex" tram junctions.

Please stop. You're making as issue out of nothing at all.

Nostradamus

Rockshamrover wrote: »

This section of Luas has to be the most expensive public transport system ever built, anywhere.

Not even close.

MiniD

Originally Posted by RPA
Thank you for your e-mail. The schedules are being finalised but the most likely that two out of three trams will continue from Busaras to the Point and one out of three will terminate in Connolly. The final timetable is being will be circulated closer to operation of the new line.

This doesn't sound too good. Considering trams run at an average of 7 minutes at peak and 15 minutes off peak, there will probably be gaps of 15 minutes on the Docklands section at peak times, and gaps of 30 minutes off peak. This flies in the face of the RPA advertising in the area which states "look what you can do in 6 minutes" pointing to how long it takes to travel that section of the line. The fact you could be waiting 15 or 30 minutes for your tram takes the shine off that statement.

This also means you could have passengers standing at the Connolly platform for 10 minutes while an outbound tram passes by a short distance away at Busaras.

I believe the success of Luas is down to it being fast, reliable and frequent. It takes 15/20 minutes to walk from the o2 to Busaras. Passengers should not have to wait that long for a tram.

munchkin_utd

Nostradamus wrote: »

Not even close.

Big dig in Boston was a wee bit dearer than the luas extention

3.5 miles tunnel, 5.6km, for a measley...
14 BILLION dollars.
And thats when the dollar was worth something so you'd be talking 18 to 20 Billion Euro.
Or roughly 3.2 Billion Euros per km.
Or better, 3.2 Million Euro per METRE!!!

so for the cost of the luas you could have 15 metres of Boston tunnel!!
Sure that wouldnt even get you round the corner from connolly station to the Harbourmaster pub!

Cool Mo D

MiniD wrote: »

This doesn't sound too good. Considering trams run at an average of 7 minutes at peak and 15 minutes off peak, there will probably be gaps of 15 minutes on the Docklands section at peak times, and gaps of 30 minutes off peak. This flies in the face of the RPA advertising in the area which states "look what you can do in 6 minutes" pointing to how long it takes to travel that section of the line. The fact you could be waiting 15 or 30 minutes for your tram takes the shine off that statement.

This also means you could have passengers standing at the Connolly platform for 10 minutes while an outbound tram passes by a short distance away at Busaras.

I believe the success of Luas is down to it being fast, reliable and frequent. It takes 15/20 minutes to walk from the o2 to Busaras. Passengers should not have to wait that long for a tram.

They run a good bit more frequently then that in my experience - getting the Luas to Heuston on Sunday morning a few weeks ago they were running every 10 minutes, and I'd say more like every 5 mins at peak.