its self defense in america, what about ireland??

sarah_archery

just wondering if anyone knows the deal in ireland about what would happen if someone breaks into a home, but the person inside ends up killing them? would they be arrested for using excessive force or would it depend on the circumstances in which the person was killed??

sky88

i think they get arressted but not 100% sure tbh

My name is URL

Just hide the corpse, nobody will ever know

<<
>>

Long Onion

Self defence

itsallaboutheL

*Ribbit Ribbit*

/thread

mikom

Depends of whether it's a frog or a human being you kill.

AnonoBoy

If the person is from the Travelling community you're allowed reload and shoot them a second time.

That may only apply in Mayo though.

Captain Havoc

The law is that if you use excesive force then yes you are in the wrong. It's a bit ghey, it pretty much works out that if a burglar is in your home you can't lay a hand on him until he refuses to leave your property at which point you can phsyically remove him. To strike him, he must first try and strike you.

Wreck

AnonoBoy wrote: »

If the person is from the Travelling community you're allowed reload and shoot them a second time in the back as they run for their life.

That may only apply in Mayo though.

FYP.

Manic Moran

In a nutshell, if the only recourse available to you was deadly force, then you'd be OK. If the intruder was a 90-year-old naked woman* who obviously wasn't a threat and you, a strapping fit 25-year-old male, clobber her with a hurley killing her, you'll be put away for a few years.

As far as I know, the controlling caselaw in Ireland is DPP v Barnes. It dates from Dec 2006 but I am not aware of any subsequent cases on the matter. If anyone can point me to one, I'd appreciate it.
http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/23fd4a34bad801d980256ec50047a0a8/aded5c6b04f391478025725d00516c14?OpenDocument

The judge goes into detail, but it's an easy read.

My favourite line:

His act of burglary is the first (and very grave) wrong. At Common Law the householder would have been entitled to kill him.

Sadly, the Judge goes on to say that the Irish Constitution now prohibits this philosophy being carried out in practice. Fortunately, I live in America, and that restriction doesn't apply.

I've never been burgled in America, for some reason.

NTM

*Even this isn't a guarantee. The Italian Army has hired 78-year-old Keiko Wakabayshi ("The Samauri Granny") to beat the crap out of its soldiers and to teach them not to be too quick to judge on appearance
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/06/26/alg_keiko.jpg

Overheal

/popcorn

Borneo Fnctn

AnonoBoy wrote: »

If the person is from the Travelling community you're allowed reload and shoot them a second time.

That may only apply in Mayo though.

Proper order for any scumbag.

Jumpy

jerseyeire wrote: »

The law is that if you use excesive force then yes you are in the wrong. It's a bit ghey, it pretty much works out that if a burglar is in your home you can't lay a hand on him until he refuses to leave your property at which point you can phsyically remove him. To strike him, he must first try and strike you.

In which case it would be his word against yours, and I suspect your word would weigh significantly more in such a case.

Captain Havoc

Jumpy wrote: »

In which case it would be his word against yours, and I suspect your word would weigh significantly more in such a case.

I would bloody hope so. It doesn't really bother me, I have hurl under the bed.

Handsome Bob

I wonder how many times the phrase "pinko liberals" will be used in this thread.

Wreck

jackpalance wrote: »

Proper order for any scumbag.

See the thing is, most people would consider someone who shoots another person in the back while they are running away to be a scumbag, so I presume you'd be ok with them being shot and killed too?

source

If someone breaks into your home and you beat them to death, then you are guilty of manslaughter/murder.

If someone breaks into your home and attacks you and you beat them to death, it's self defence.

Everyone has the right to defend themselves using reasonable force. ie if someone hits you a slap you can't shoot them and claim self defence.

Cool Mo D

The law is that you can only use proportionate force to defend yourself, your home and your family. That depends on the situation, so there is no black and white answer to the question.

If you can show later in court that you genuinely felt your life was in imminent danger, it is legal to kill someone who breaks into your house.

If you run across some 11 year old who's climbed in an open window at night to rob your xbox, you are not allowed to use violence to teach him a lesson.

Everything else falls in between, and it is a judgement call for you, and maybe later the cops and a jury.

The letter of law is basically the same here as it is in the states, but there is a cultural difference their meaning that a lot more leeway is given to defend yourself and your house with physical force.

So if you feel that in the cold light of day, you could convince a jury that your actions were reasonable and justified to a normal, level headed person, that is what you are allowed to do to a home invader. Since different people have very different views on this, it depends!

I am not a lawyer by the way, so don't take this as gospel.

Borneo Fnctn

Wreck wrote: »

See the thing is, most people would consider someone who shoots another person in the back while they are running away to be a scumbag, so I presume you'd be ok with them being shot and killed too?

Ah come on, you're probably right but it's never going to happen to me. Let me enjoy my fantasy about righteously gunning down a scumbag.

Black Swan

Manic Moran wrote: »

I've never been burgled in America, for some reason.

That old T-70 tank parked in your driveway might discourage the bad guys?

SV

Wreck wrote: »

See the thing is, most people would consider someone who shoots another person in the back while they are running away to be a scumbag, so I presume you'd be ok with them being shot and killed too?

If my family had terrorised someone for years and I was in the process of robbing their house then I guess I would be!

Takk

Depends on how many arrows you used.

You might get away with self defence if it was just one. But if it was Boromir-style you'll probably do time.

artielange

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I wonder how many times the phrase "pinko liberals" will be used in this thread.

I am going to guess once maybe twice depending if your counting quoted....:D

TheInquisitor

From what i know if they are in the non-sleeping area of the house you can only kill them if they strike threaten to strike or attempt to strike you. However if they enter the sleeping area of the house then you can use any means to get rid of them.

Long Onion

TheInquisitor wrote: »

From what i know if they are in the non-sleeping area of the house you can only kill them if they strike threaten to strike or attempt to strike you. However if they enter the sleeping area of the house then you can use any means to get rid of them.

Where did you get that from, the National Enquirer?

Manic Moran

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

That old T-70 tank parked in your driveway might discourage the bad guys?

No need. The combination of Gadsden flag on the flagpole and this sign...
http://i13.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/dd/12/e4c4_1_sbl.JPG
tends to have the desired effect. That way the T-70 can fit in my garage, safe from the elements as befits a WWII piece.

I'm trying to upgrade to this sign, though.
http://helpbethany.com/images/0304a/0304088r.jpg
Sadly, I can't find one small enough to fit on my porch.

NTM

Raze_them_all

Shotgun point blank to the chest. Calmly walk to kitchen and remove knife and place near body. Say they charged you with the knife you jumped and the gun went off.

Or live out in the country, nobody blinks at shotguns going off in the morning

Manic Moran

"The Three Ss"

Shoot.
Shovel.
Shut up.

NTM

PCPhoto

jerseyeire wrote: »

The law is that if you use excesive force then yes you are in the wrong. It's a bit ghey, it pretty much works out that if a burglar is in your home you can't lay a hand on him until he refuses to leave your property at which point you can phsyically remove him. To strike him, he must first try and strike you.

thats NOT true .... you can "lay the smackdown" in the event of feeling in fear of your life and intimidated.

jif

{homer}{calls over the fence} "oh flanders come round for a beer!
{homer gently pats a baseball bat in his hands and gives a wry smile}

{chief wiggum} you know it doesnt work if you invite them!

{flanders} hidely hodely neighbour!

{homer} nothing, go home

{flanders} oakely dokely..."

the locust

OP 100% you get arrested for murder. You be questioned then either charged or released on bail.

Its homicide, and that comes in many forms. You have to prove BEYOND ALL REASONABLE DOUBT that all your actions were justifiable if your to get off the hook. In other words - you had better be able to prove you had a damn good excuse for icing the fool

daveharnett

sarah_archery wrote: »

just wondering if anyone knows the deal in ireland about what would happen if someone breaks into a home, but the person inside ends up killing them? would they be arrested for using excessive force or would it depend on the circumstances in which the person was killed??

They almost certainly be arrested.

In Ireland, people are allowed to use proportionate force to defend themselves, or to make a citizen's arrest. In the case of killing an intruder, the killer would need to demonstrate that they were acting (at least in their own mind) in the last defense of their (or someone else's) life.

omahaid

the locust wrote: »

Its homicide, and that comes in many forms. You have to prove BEYOND ALL REASONABLE DOUBT that all your actions were justifiable if your to get off the hook. In other words - you had better be able to prove you had a damn good excuse for icing the fool

My understanding is that the DPP has to prove BEYOND ALL REASONABLE DOUBT that your actions were criminal. You have the presumption of innocence I think.

Remmy

yep on a criminal case the standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt but you are innocent untill proven guilty.

I didn't read the past two thread so dont know if this was already posted but one must meet force with equal force.

orourkeda

If you are going to shoot a burglar make sure you use a silencer is the moral of the story here.

Overheal

Silencers are contraband in most states, iirc.

f3qh5g0z6vc7ob

I remember been told that if I woke up and there was a man in my room (and not someone Id brought home) that i could kill them as I could say I thought I was going to be raped.

But if I came down the stairs and saw them in sitting room I couldnt!

orourkeda

Overheal wrote: »

Silencers are contraband in most states, iirc.

So is shooting a burglar and letting your neighbours hear the gunshot.

Daragh101

AnonoBoy wrote: »

If the person is from the Travelling community you're allowed reload and shoot them a second time.

That may only apply in Mayo though.

and thank god thats the case..........dirty tinkers!

Rondolfus

sarah_archery wrote: »

just wondering if anyone knows the deal in ireland about what would happen if someone breaks into a home, but the person inside ends up killing them? would they be arrested for using excessive force or would it depend on the circumstances in which the person was killed??

1. Make sure the injuries you inflict are to the front of the body
2. Try to finish the job with one or two quick blows.
3. If necessary, get the intruders finger prints on something that can be used as a weapon and drop it near the corpse.

Follow these rules and it will almost certainly be judged as self defence.

My name is URL

Rondolfus wrote: »

1. Make sure the injuries you inflict are to the front of the body
2. Try to finish the job with one or two quick blows.
3. If necessary, get the intruders finger prints on something that can be used as a weapon and drop it near the corpse.

Follow these rules and it will almost certainly be judged as self defence.

Also, undo his fly and put Werthers Original in his mouth

Rhyme

We need the Castle Law.

"...but your honour, he looked at me funny."

Pedro K

Wreck wrote: »

See the thing is, most people would consider someone who shoots another person in the back while they are running away to be a scumbag, so I presume you'd be ok with them being shot and killed too?

I don't want to drag the thread off topic.

But the person in question who was running away, you can be damn sure would've come back had Nally not finished him off.

Also, his farm had been broken into on more than one occasion in the months leading up to the inicident, and John Wards record wasn't exactly clean.

80 previous convictions. "I was looking to see if I could buy your car boss!" Yeah right.

Funny, John's son wasn't aware of any of this though... Also, may be worth mentioning that he too, has been convicted of theft.

Anyway.

On topic.

If you kill someone, you will more than likely be charged with manslaughter. You're supposed to use reasonable force, which is of course, extremely hard to prove.

dyl10

TheInquisitor wrote: »

From what i know if they are in the non-sleeping area of the house you can only kill them if they strike threaten to strike or attempt to strike you. However if they enter the sleeping area of the house then you can use any means to get rid of them.

I believe there is precedent for this, alright.
Effectively, if someone comes up your stairs into your sleeping area they are deemed to be threatening the safety of you/your family.

nlgbbbblth

if I confront a burglar and inflict serious injury by use of excessive force I will expect some form of punishment from the courts.

the burning question is though

- does the burglar get prosecuted for breaking and entering in the first place?

It's important to punish the instigator too. Not just the person who retaliates. Football referees should take note.

dyl10

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

- does the burglar get prosecuted for breaking and entering in the first place?

I'm sure they do.

Give him a good hiding, tie him up and offer to call it quits.

Seloth

There was a series of robbings in my area for around two weeks until one night a father woke up to find the guy in his kitchen so he beat the **** out of him and called the guards:D

Mr Yellow

Apologies - slighly off topic

Anyone remember a crime that happened in the states afew years back. Basically Burglar falls through house roof light, which was over the kitchen, he lands on a knife that had ben left on a counter & the dying **** (he lived) sued teh house owner for negligence or something! How the hell does this work?

Back to thread - If you wake up in middle of night, we should have the licence to Kill. Plus look at teh benefits of less tax being paid for another scum bag in teh joint.

Overheal

Im pretty sure that was referenced in a movie, and no i couldnt tell you what movie.

starbelgrade

sarah_archery wrote: »

just wondering if anyone knows the deal in ireland about what would happen if someone breaks into a home, but the person inside ends up killing them? would they be arrested for using excessive force or would it depend on the circumstances in which the person was killed??

There's a difference between protecting yourself in self defense & protecting your property. At least there is in Ireland. Unless a pikey robs your gaff & it's open season, or so it seems.

Mr Yellow

Overheal wrote: »

Im pretty sure that was referenced in a movie, and no i couldnt tell you what movie.

So it was only a movie??? Dang colourful mind i got.... Thx