What about them Bronco's

eagle eye

D3PO wrote: »

well of course it makes a difference :eek: Ask any headcoach in the world what they want a gunslinger that will throw for 400 yards a game and lose or a guy who wont put up as big stats but will win you games.

100% will have the latter.

Its the same in any sport. Do you want to look good and lose or win ugly ?

Kyle Orton was on the winning side last season in games where he didn't get the win, the game against the New Orleans Saints sticks out in my mind. In that game he threw 24/40 for 172 yards with 0 tds and 2 ints.
The win over Green Bay where he was 14/27 for 142 yards with 1 td and 2 ints.
The win over the 0-16 Lions where they were down 23-13 when Orton went out of the game injured after throwing 8-14 for 108 yards in the first half and 1 rushing td.

And then Jay Cutler with the Broncos

They lost the Bills where he threw 25/45 for 359yds with O tds and 1 int and he rushed for 2 tds.
The loss to the Jags where he had a better game than any of those 'wins' I mention above for Orton but still only was 21/37 for 192 yards for 2 tds and 1 int.

Above there is a five game swing in the favour of Orton where Orton did not lead his team to victory and Cutler was not the cause of his team losing. Great defense won those games for Chicago whereas a porous defense lost those games for Denver.

D3PO

Karlusss wrote: »

The point the Cutlerites are making is that a quarterback who can make the throws and throw for 400 yards is a better asset to have than a game-manager who can't. i.e. he will give you a better chance to win. Because Brett Favre, for example, can do what Kyle Orton can do if he has to, but Kyle Orton can't do what Favre can do.

True but theres "game managers" like Jason Cambell, Shaun Hill & Travaris Jackson they are what id call limited, Orton may not be able to make all the throws Cutler makes but to call him just a game manager is a tad unfair.

Hes made the throws when hes had to, his record speaks for itself. I think to dismiss him as a game manager isnt right.

D3PO

eagle eye wrote: »

Kyle Orton was on the winning side last season in games where he didn't get the win, the game against the New Orleans Saints sticks out in my mind. In that game he threw 24/40 for 172 yards with 0 tds and 2 ints.
The win over Green Bay where he was 14/27 for 142 yards with 1 td and 2 ints.
The win over the 0-16 Lions where they were down 23-13 when Orton went out of the game injured after throwing 8-14 for 108 yards in the first half and 1 rushing td.

And then Jay Cutler with the Broncos

They lost the Bills where he threw 25/45 for 359yds with O tds and 1 int and he rushed for 2 tds.
The loss to the Jags where he had a better game than any of those 'wins' I mention above for Orton but still only was 21/37 for 192 yards for 2 tds and 1 int.

Above there is a five game swing in the favour of Orton where Orton did not lead his team to victory and Cutler was not the cause of his team losing. Great defense won those games for Chicago whereas a porous defense lost those games for Denver.

hang on now you cant pull up individual games and use that.

Lets go with the new orleans game. No mention his stat book got robbed of a 45 yard pass that would have gone for a TD only for pass interferance which ended up as a td on a rush 2 plays later and then there was the 38 yard pass interferance call against him aswell. so thers over 80 yards and a td scrubbed but you have to credit the qb to a certain degree

also no mention that Orton himself rushed for a td in that game.


look at the end you do what you have to do to win. stats can say what you want them to say. I could retaliate and say he lost them the game against the chargers only for a stupid officials call, but results are results.

I guess the only way we can really evaluate this is when their careers are over and see who was more successful. Like I said right now Cutler for all his throwing ability has never had a winning season and never led a team to the playoffs.

So despite his stat line when it comes to the crunch he isnt elite yet. Lets see which team fares better this season

tallaghtoutlaws

Ok Im going to quickly clear up my side of the argument.

I do think Cutler is a better QB. But I think those who write Orton off as sh1t and wont do anything are fools.

I like both QBs Cutler for his Canon arm and Orton because he plays a smart game and gets the job done.

Both have a prosperous NFL career ahead of them and I dont see either of them ever being elite but good QBs above the average who will have done a good job in the NFL.

Max Power1

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

.....Orton because he plays a smart game and gets the job done.
.....

+1
Orton has certainly done this in his career to date.

D3PO

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Ok Im going to quickly clear up my side of the argument.

I do think Cutler is a better QB. But I think those who write Orton off as sh1t and wont do anything are fools.

I like both QBs Cutler for his Canon arm and Orton because he plays a smart game and gets the job done.

Both have a prosperous NFL career ahead of them and I dont see either of them ever being elite but good QBs above the average who will have done a good job in the NFL.

i agree i guess we kind of got off my main point aswell which is Orton plus Moreno plus a third round and first round pick again for next year in place of Cutler makes the Broncos team a strong playoff contender.

i also agree neither of them will ever been elite but its not inconcievable that either of them could lead their franchies to a bowl victory

eagle eye

D3PO wrote: »

hang on now you cant pull up individual games and use that.

Just to clarify, I belive that Jay Cutler is a very good QB who could become a really sensational one. I think Kyle Orton is just an average NFL QB and will never be anything more than that.

I've never said that Orton is terrible at any stage and those stats I put up were just to show the holes in your original post which was particularly dumb.

The Munky

Wow...

Look Orton has his strong points and he weak points and ditto re: Culter but lads comparing them isn't fair anymore, different players, different teams, different divisions and different expectations. Orton had lower expectations of him going to Denver whereas Cutler was under the microscope from day one. Whether that has allowed Orton shake the shackles and made Cutler delay his decisions a split second only they will know...


....but......

These guys are only one man on a team of 11..... Orton IMHO has a better receiving core and possibly a better running game around him which will help him with short yardage stats whereas Cutler is expected to throw the ball more and make 'highlight reel' plays so lets just relax and see how this progresses over the next 12 RS games.

Morrisseeee

Very interesting reading here & in the Week 4 thread ! As a Broncos fan, I have to admit I'm astounded at the start, I thought they'd be lucky to be 2-2 at the mo. But their D is the best in the league (right now) and their O is getting the job done ! I think they can win the division but as to the big Q, are they a SB team, then............maybe not, but you never know, maybe they might win one like the Giants did a few years ago !! Orton is a worry though, his passing isn't on-the-button. If Cutler was there we would definitely be a SB team (personal opinion), I'm following his progress with the Bears, and after a week one fall, he's rebounded brilliantly.
The next 4 weeks are crucial for the Broncos if serious ambitions are to be fullfilled !

Caveat: I'm not a 'big' follower of the game, (as most of ye here would be), especially as I had to get rid of SkySports, bummer!

tallaghtoutlaws

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Very interesting reading here & in the Week 4 thread ! As a Broncos fan, I have to admit I'm astounded at the start, I thought they'd be lucky to be 2-2 at the mo. But their D is the best in the league (right now) and their O is getting the job done ! I think they can win the division but as to the big Q, are they a SB team, then............maybe not, but you never know, maybe they might win one like the Giants did a few years ago !! Orton is a worry though, his passing isn't on-the-button. If Cutler was there we would definitely be a SB team (personal opinion), I'm following his progress with the Bears, and after a week one fall, he's rebounded brilliantly.
The next 4 weeks are crucial for the Broncos if serious ambitions are to be fullfilled !

Caveat: I'm not a 'big' follower of the game, (as most of ye here would be), especially as I had to get rid of SkySports, bummer!

But as a Broncos fan isnt hind sight a wonderful thing? The team hasnt really changed in 2 years and JMD literally has the same team as last bar one or two players. Whos to say you dont go 8-8 again? And I know Cutler is better all you have to do is read my above post on the issue but Orton's passing is as good as any other QB right now. Not astronimical or anything but the ball is finding its man.

See talking to 2 friends in Denver and 1 is all about the new system and has moved past Cutler/JMD fiasco because after all you are already 50% on your way to getting the same record as last year. 4 more wins and its already as good as last year. But the other friend is whiney little b1tch and he complains about everything still harping on about Cutler/JMD.

See the problem here is you made a good 4-0 start and Orton and his offense are doing the job and the Defense is on fire but you do have a tough schedule and its easy to say Cutler would be doing the same or would be taking you to a bowl after 4 games. Just my opinion.

tallaghtoutlaws

The Munky wrote: »

Wow...

Look Orton has his strong points and he weak points and ditto re: Culter but lads comparing them isn't fair anymore, different players, different teams, different divisions and different expectations. Orton had lower expectations of him going to Denver whereas Cutler was under the microscope from day one. Whether that has allowed Orton shake the shackles and made Cutler delay his decisions a split second only they will know...


....but......

These guys are only one man on a team of 11..... Orton IMHO has a better receiving core and possibly a better running game around him which will help him with short yardage stats whereas Cutler is expected to throw the ball more and make 'highlight reel' plays so lets just relax and see how this progresses over the next 12 RS games.

But if we cant compare as its not fair why are you?

Morrisseeee

Am I friend no. 1 or 2 tallaghtoutlaws ? :pac:

you made a good 4-0 start and Orton and his offense are doing the job and the Defense is on fire but you do have a tough schedule

Thats kinda what I said in my post.

its easy to say Cutler would be doing the same or would be taking you to a bowl after 4 games

Its not an easy thing to say, its just I've been following Cutler for the last few years, and I think he could be a great QB. It was a major shock when I heard the news of the fallout, as I though they would do good things this season. But lets forget about that now and concentrate on Orton and his future, and personally I don't have the confidence in him to win us an AFC title or dare I say it a SB ! I dearly hope he proves me wrong.

tallaghtoutlaws

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Am I friend no. 1 or 2 tallaghtoutlaws ? :pac:

A Little from Column A a Little from Column B :D:D

Chucky the tree

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

But as a Broncos fan isnt hind sight a wonderful thing? The team hasnt really changed in 2 years and JMD literally has the same team as last bar one or two players. Whos to say you dont go 8-8 again? And I know Cutler is better all you have to do is read my above post on the issue but Orton's passing is as good as any other QB right now. Not astronimical or anything but the ball is finding its man.

See talking to 2 friends in Denver and 1 is all about the new system and has moved past Cutler/JMD fiasco because after all you are already 50% on your way to getting the same record as last year. 4 more wins and its already as good as last year. But the other friend is whiney little b1tch and he complains about everything still harping on about Cutler/JMD.

See the problem here is you made a good 4-0 start and Orton and his offense are doing the job and the Defense is on fire but you do have a tough schedule and its easy to say Cutler would be doing the same or would be taking you to a bowl after 4 games. Just my opinion.

I might have it wrong but you're post seems to be suggesting that the Broncos are a much improved team then last year which is something I don't think you can say yet. They went 5-1 last season and with there next 4 games being Pats, @ Chargers, @Ravens, Stealers I can see them ending up 5-3 at the very best. While defensively they have been a huge improvement I still think the Cutler fiasco would annoy me if I was a Bronco fan. I'm a big fan of Orton and do think he gets a lot of unfair criticism I'd still much rather be starting a playoff game with Cutler as my QB.

tallaghtoutlaws

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I might have it wrong but you're post seems to be suggesting that the Broncos are a much improved team then last year which is something I don't think you can say yet. They went 5-1 last season and with there next 4 games being Pats, @ Chargers, @Ravens, Stealers I can see them ending up 5-3 at the very best. While defensively they have been a huge improvement I still think the Cutler fiasco would annoy me if I was a Bronco fan. I'm a big fan of Orton and do think he gets a lot of unfair criticism I'd still much rather be starting a playoff game with Cutler as my QB.

Nope you misread it. I said they are the same team practically other than few changes who knows if they will go 8-8 again or worse or better. Time will tell. But you can stay annoyed forever with it but you eventually have to build a bridge and move on and continue to support your team. Booing them is silly and refusing to go to games without giving them a chance to finish a season. If at the end of the season they are woeful then the fans are proven right but until then support them. Some Broncos fans are being to extreme with their hatred for JMD and Orton. Its madness and pathetic.

See we could sit here and pretend to know the future of both QBs but neither guys are proven QBs yet. Sure I would prefer Cutler leading my team into the Playoffs but he has yet to experience the playoffs so who knows how he would perform?

But mainly Broncos fans are under this illusion they were a great team with Cutler but they werent. The system failed and their game failed. Ok not Cutlers fault as he is still young and has bags of potential to a great QB again not Elite but between good and great. But who is to say they dont make the playoffs this year and Orton doesnt improve? None of us can its all mere speculation. Broncos fans need to get over losing Cutler and show some faith and give their team a chance. Simple as.

Morrisseeee

But mainly Broncos fans are under this illusion they were a great team with Cutler but they werent

Nah, as was already said, we'd prefer to have Cutler as QB heading into the playoffs, but this could be down to the fact that he started off in Denver and it looked like he was the next (dare I say it) Elway !!

Anyways here's interesting reading, looks like Orton mightn't be THAT bad afterall, note: shamefully 'picked' from another forum: (be afraid tallaghoutlaws, be very afraid, Denver are going to beat ye !! :eek:)

"............
Playing quarterback for the Denver Broncos means everything you do is going to be under the microscope.
We have a lot of Orton defenders and a lot of Orton bashers around here. So, which side is right? When I break down a quarterback's performance, I look at how he performs in the clutch. Let's take a look at Orton's situational stats.
***These numbers are for the ENTIRE SEASON through week 4, not any singular game***

Kyle Orton in the first half:
50.7 completion percentage, 5.5 yards per attempt, 347 yards, 78.9 QB rating

Pedestrian by all accounts. I think we can all agree on that.

Now let's look at his second half numbers:
70.8 completion percentage, 11.6 yards per attempt, 559 yards, 123.5 QB rating

Those numbers are impressive no matter how you look at it, even if you don't count the Immaculate Deflection (which I do, because every QB gets lucky sometimes).

Let's break that down further. Here are his numbers for the 4th quarter:
73.9 completion percentage, 15.7 yards per attempt, 144.7 QB rating

Those are borderline ridiculous.

How about the 4th quarter, when the difference in score is less than 7 points?
78.9 completion percentage, 16.9 yards per attempt, 153.8 QB rating

Yeah, that's eye-popping. Orton has been getting it done in crunch time.

Let's look at this from a different perspective, though.

Here are Kyle Orton's numbers when the Broncos are ahead:
55.7 completion percentage, 7.4 yards per attempt, 79.5 QB rating

This makes sense. When the Broncos are winning, Kyle Orton is more likely to be conservative. He's going to use his checkdowns, hit his running backs out of the backfield, and throw the ball away under pressure.

We would expect him to play a little better when the score is tied, and that's what he does:
58.3 completion percentage, 6.8 yards per attempt, 106.8 QB rating

Nothing to write home about, but certainly well above average.

And how about when the Broncos are trailing?
65.6 completion percentage, 9.0 yards per attempt, 125.7 QB rating

His numbers have the arc you would expect a winner's numbers to have. He plays alright when we're ahead, well when we're tied, and great when we're behind.

What does this mean for Orton bashers?
It means Orton bashers need to give the man a little credit. He has been playing well when it matters most. He hasn't turned it over yet and his clutch stats far exceed his normal stats. Oh, and we're 4-0.

What does this mean for Orton defenders?
It means that you're right for sticking up for the guy, but we also have to recognize that he needs to be good ALL THE TIME and not just in certain situations. Kyle Orton needs to play better in the first half, so that we aren't in a position to NEED big plays in the second. And he needs to continue to play well with the lead so that we don't let teams back into games.

Bottom line?

The bottom line is that Kyle Orton has been playing well when it matters most, and we've been winning football games BECAUSE of it and not in SPITE of it. But you're crazy if you think that he can't improve, and we're going to need him to improve as this schedule gets tougher.
..........."

Morrisseeee

^^..........and he's not wearing a glove this week ! :eek:

manafana

bronco's got it done, jmd is growing on me bit, great comeback and orton got it done again when it mattered.

Morrisseeee

Three words, wow ! :eek:

Great win for us against the Pats. Horrible jerseys tho :eek:
Another immaculate reception, it took 2 tips before it was caught :eek:
Defence had another good night.
< to expand on this, they have given up 0 points in the 2nd half in the last 4 games ! and only 7 points in the last 5 >
Great drive in OT to set up the game winning kick.
Is our name on the.........trophy ?! (sorry, just getting carried away with it all !)

5-0 un-friggin-believable :cool:

Leslie91

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Three words, wow ! :eek:

Great win for us against the Pats. Horrible jerseys tho :eek:
Another immaculate reception, it took 2 tips before it was caught :eek:
Defence had another good night.
< to expand on this, they have given up 0 points in the 2nd half in the last 4 games ! and only 7 points in the last 5 >
Great drive in OT to set up the game winning kick.
Is our name on the.........trophy ?! (sorry, just getting carried away with it all !)

5-0 un-friggin-believable :cool:

Fair play. Ur team is massively improved with McDaniels and Nolan in charge. Brady has an off day no doubt about it but Orton really impressed me (I cannot believe I just wrote that). Next monday nite is a huge game for us Chargers now. Lose and the division is yours I reckon. Win and it is game on. We gotta stop Moreno and get Clary some help at RT with Dumervil, he will kill us on his own if we don't double him.

Agree though that gear is mank. Looks like a crowd of 'jesters'!!.

The Munky

OH OH - I notice the Pat fans are a little quiet this morning.....

No tuck rule comebacks last night...

WP Broncos.....

eagle eye

The Munky wrote: »

OH OH - I notice the Pat fans are a little quiet this morning.....

No tuck rule comebacks last night...

WP Broncos.....

What do you expect Pats fans to say?
We are all gutted at being beaten by an unbeaten team and we are worried too. Brady is not at his best, our offensive playcalling is a joke and our defensive playcalling isn't much better.

Credit to Josh for pulling it off. We don't get bitter when we lose and we don't kick people when they are down either unlike you.

The Munky

We don't get bitter when we lose and we don't kick people when they are down either unlike you.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like you are a tad bit bitter right there Oh Eyes of the Eagle.....

And anyway, I am not kicking you when you are down, You have a better start than the team I follow and I actually think the Pats will get it right and go deep in the post season but I am glad the Broncos won. Its nice to have a few 'new' teams with bull's eyes on their backs for a change.

I like the Pats but the Broncos are playing some 'D'......

Dare I say, a shoe in to win their division?

brennaldo

The Munky wrote: »

We don't get bitter when we lose and we don't kick people when they are down either unlike you.

Sounds like you are a tad bit bitter right there Oh Eyes of the Eagle.....

And anyway, I am not kicking you when you are down, You have a better start than the team I follow and I actually think the Pats will get it right and go deep in the post season but I am glad the Broncos won. Its nice to have a few 'new' teams with bull's eyes on their backs for a change.

I like the Pats but the Broncos are playing some 'D'......

Dare I say, a shoe in to win their division?[/QUOTE]

ah no doubt, they will definatly, this year, beat the chargers and im sooooo glad that they will, the chargers have knocked us out (the colts) the last 2 years now so i want to see them finish second as i see ourselfs top of the afc south,

but anyway great win for the broncos, very impressive this year i have to say, i would not of said at the start of the year that they will be one of only 4 (maybe 5 next week) with a 5-0

ReacherCreature

The Munky wrote: »

OH OH - I notice the Pat fans are a little quiet this morning.....

No tuck rule comebacks last night...

WP Broncos.....

Sounds like you are a tad bit bitter right there Oh Eyes of the Eagle.....

Very immature there The Munky. I think eagle eye was very fair and made a good comment towards the team that defeated us and knocks us back in our tracks.

I'm well happy for the Broncos and I predicted amongst friends that they'd do well, I'm sure you're delighted too but that 'mocking' is ridiclous!

UhOh

great start to the season for us alright, I really enjoyed the game last night.

For the nay sayers saying we started last season 4-0 aswell etc etc....yeah well I think for those of us who watched Broncos game's last season & this the difference defensively is colossal. The holes were blatantly obvious & Jay Cutler along with a little Ed Hoculi help papered over the cracks early.
I've been a Broncos fan since 1991 & know the history & how good & bad they've been over the years & I would say last years defence was probably the Broncos worst since the mid 60s.

Honestly I never expected a 5-0 start but I thought all the pre season 4-12, 3-13 predicitons were ridiculous, ok McDaniels lost a franchise QB but the rest of that offence is highly talented to & the D could only get better. Great move by McDaniels to switch to 3-4 & hire Mike Nolan who's really got them working.

As for Kyle Orton, I must admit I'm surprised. I knew he had a good win/loss record in a poor offence but he's played great, ball security to. My one major criticism of Cutler on the field was his affinity for fumbling/throwing picks. Orton is improving with every game aswell.

The future's bright, the futures orange

How about some love for Ryan Clady aswell? 21 games into his pro career at LT & he's only givin up a half a sack

Karlusss

brennaldo wrote: »

ah no doubt, they will definatly, this year, beat the chargers and im sooooo glad that they will

Wouldn't go mad now. The Chargers are loaded and they have a tendency to pull it out when they need to. The Broncos are going to start losing games at some point - maybe through injuries, or maybe their luck will turn or whatever - and the Chargers will come up on them. It's up the Broncos to set the target alright, but don't put it past Rivers to throw for the division down the stretch, or to get the wild card and knock you out anyway

davyjose

Karlusss wrote: »

Wouldn't go mad now. The Chargers are loaded and they have a tendency to pull it out when they need to. The Broncos are going to start losing games at some point - maybe through injuries, or maybe their luck will turn or whatever - and the Chargers will come up on them. It's up the Broncos to set the target alright, but don't put it past Rivers to throw for the division down the stretch, or to get the wild card and knock you out anyway

just as they did last year

ReacherCreature

UhOh wrote: »

How about some love for Ryan Clady aswell? 21 games into his pro career at LT & he's only givin up a half a sack

True this. Probably an integral part of Orton's success. You never hear too much about the performance of the line in football!

The Munky

ReacherCreature wrote: »

Very immature there The Munky. I think eagle eye was very fair and made a good comment towards the team that defeated us and knocks us back in our tracks.

I'm well happy for the Broncos and I predicted amongst friends that they'd do well, I'm sure you're delighted too but that 'mocking' is ridiclous!

OK, I am truly sorry this loss has affected you both in such a way, but I did not set out to offend any Pats fan and its obvious if you were to read what I posted in an objective manner...

Perhaps you should look up 'Mocking' and 'Sarcasm' and see if you can spot the difference on your own time.

Go Broncos :rolleyes::D