What about them Bronco's

The Munky

I have to say I really wasn't overly excited about the Cowboys V Bronco's on Sunday as I thought there was better matches taking place but I have to say that they played some fantastic football.

That 3-4 Defence was everywhere, they attacked everything that moved. A ferocious Line Backing core who from the 2nd quarter on held Barber. The corners made an already suspect group of Dallas wide outs look average.

On the other side of the ball, Orton 'managed' the game well, Moreno rode the A Gap all night and their wide outs played well with Marshall sacrificing his large ego for the good of the team...

Despite all the grief he got for trading Cutler to the Bears, McDaniels looks like he has the making of a Bellicheck mini-me.... granted he has a way to go to reach that level and there is no doubt that he handled Cutlers ego like a rookie coach (they would be contenders to go deep into the post season with Cutler there) but the guy looks good.
I am now actually looking forward to seeing them on Sky....

Any Lovers or Haters of the Broncos out there?

D3PO

far to early in the season to be praising any team just yet. the next 4 games will say alot about how good the broncos are.

rememeber they started well last season and fell away aswell ...

Max Power1

lets see what happens when Orton throws an INT or 2, he hasnt really beeen rattled yet. (Replaceing Cutler as a widely acknowledged worse QB - no pressure. )

The Munky

D3PO wrote: »

far to early in the season to be praising any team just yet. the next 4 games will say alot about how good the broncos are.

rememeber they started well last season and fell away aswell ...

You love your 'matter of fact' statements don't ya 3PO....

I was merely commenting on their first 4 games and saying how good they looked in those 4 games.... and that with Cutler they would be even better because he is a better QB then Orton..

I didnt predict them to win anything this season, did I?
So all the praise for the first 4 games is duly deserved...

BTW - Would you please stop making silly comments using the benefit of hindsight. I know they went last year thank you very much.....;)

ReacherCreature

D3PO wrote: »

far to early in the season to be praising any team just yet. the next 4 games will say alot about how good the broncos are.

rememeber they started well last season and fell away aswell ...

Patriots, Chargers, Ravens & Steelers, away to Ravens and Chargers. Very tough.

tallaghtoutlaws

Max Power1 wrote: »

lets see what happens when Orton throws an INT or 2, he hasnt really beeen rattled yet. (Replaceing Cutler as a widely acknowledged worse QB - no pressure. )

Hasnt been rattled yet? Have you watched the first 4 games? Granted the Raiders and Browns only rushed him a few times and knocked him on his ass. But he was sacked 6 times between the Bengals and Dallas and fumbled against Dallas. Dallas and the Bengals gave him a hard enough time. So out of the 4 games you can say 2 were easy. Lets not forget he played with the bears last year and was sacked 26 times and threw 12 Ints fumbled 3 times but still came up with decent numbers for a team lacking decent WR. If anything he has the mental toughness to succeed now he has those weapons at his disposal.

Why do people not give Orton enough credit. He is now on a team where he stands a great oppurtunity to make a name for himself and use the weapons Denver has.

The Munky

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Hasnt been rattled yet? Have you watched the first 4 games? Granted the Raiders and Browns only rushed him a few times and knocked him on his ass. But he was sacked 6 times between the Bengals and Dallas and fumbled against Dallas. Dallas and the Bengals gave him a hard enough time. So out of the 4 games you can say 2 were easy. Lets not forget he played with the bears last year and was sacked 26 times and threw 12 Ints fumbled 3 times but still came up with decent numbers for a team lacking decent WR. If anything he has the mental toughness to succeed now he has those weapons at his disposal.

Why do people not give Orton enough credit. He is now on a team where he stands a great oppurtunity to make a name for himself and use the weapons Denver has.

Thats what I like about you TallaghtOL..... You bring facts to your statements as opposed to the usual opinionated drivil....

Fly that flag

Max Power1

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Hasnt been rattled yet? Have you watched the first 4 games? Granted the Raiders and Browns only rushed him a few times and knocked him on his ass. But he was sacked 6 times between the Bengals and Dallas and fumbled against Dallas. Dallas and the Bengals gave him a hard enough time. So out of the 4 games you can say 2 were easy. Lets not forget he played with the bears last year and was sacked 26 times and threw 12 Ints fumbled 3 times but still came up with decent numbers for a team lacking decent WR. If anything he has the mental toughness to succeed now he has those weapons at his disposal.

Why do people not give Orton enough credit. He is now on a team where he stands a great oppurtunity to make a name for himself and use the weapons Denver has.

Ive only seen highlights of him this year maybe thats not representative of the pass rushes he's been facing. What I was saying was lets see how he reacts when he does get picked off or when they lose a game. Thats when the leadership will be needed and he hasnt shown that either with chicago or this year

tallaghtoutlaws

Max Power1 wrote: »

Ive only seen highlights of him this year maybe thats not representative of the pass rushes he's been facing. What I was saying was lets see how he reacts when he does get picked off or when they lose a game. Thats when the leadership will be needed and he hasnt shown that either with chicago or this year

What are you talking about? He showed leadership in Chicago. He was underrated in my opinion. Lack of protection and weak WR corp didnt help his cause. And the fact he was on his ass so much and put up solid numbers last season with the bears shows he has the ability. Now you give a guys like Orton protection and some WR to throw at and add his mental toughness he will do the job.

And why do you think him throwing an INT will rattle him? He isnt a rookie who just came into the game. In 5 seasons he has thrown 27 INTs and sacked 65 times. Im pretty sure after being with the bears he is more than ready to wipe off an INT and continue to lead the Broncos.

Read this and google many more like it

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/sports/ap/kyle-orton-brushes-aside-negative-conniptions-embraces-notion-hes-a-game-manager-62951277.html

Interesting fact:Orton is 22-12 as a starter in the NFL, Cutler 19-21.

LuckyLloyd

Facts:

- They have played the easiest section of their schedule;
- Their first three opponents currently rank 19, 26, 32 on offense; 20, 21 and 32 on defense. Dallas currently have the 27th ranked defense;
- The rest of their schedule is brutal;
- Two of their four wins came in games decided by less than a score, where it would be reasonable to conclude that Denver would expect to win the game less than 5 out of 10 times;
- Before this season began, Orton had a career passer rating of ~70.0 (over 33 games); he is operating at 97.7 thus far this season - therefore it is reasonable to assume that his performance will dip as the season goes on;

Conclusion:

This team is running way above expectation, and should come crashing down to earth as the season progresses.

tallaghtoutlaws

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Facts:

- They have played the easiest section of their schedule;
- Their first three opponents currently rank 19, 26, 32 on offense; 20, 21 and 32 on defense. Dallas currently have the 27th ranked defense;
- The rest of their schedule is brutal;
- Two of their four wins came in games decided by less than a score, where it would be reasonable to conclude that Denver would expect to win the game less than 5 out of 10 times;
- Before this season began, Orton had a career passer rating of ~70.0 (over 33 games); he is operating at 97.7 thus far this season - therefore it is reasonable to assume that his performance will dip as the season goes on;

Conclusion:

This team is running way above expectation, and should come crashing down to earth as the season progresses.

I would agree with the majority of all of this and will stand by everything I say about Orton but and huge but..... I missed the day in Wizard school in the Crytal ball class when our opinion of the future was factual conclusion :D:D

As a Pats fan I hope Denver choke and come crashing down but it wont be because Orton is a bad QB or he sh1t the bed.

eagle eye

The Broncos haven't really played anybody yet, the next four weeks will tell where they are at.

LuckyLloyd

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

I would agree with the majority of all of this and will stand by everything I say about Orton but and huge but..... I missed the day in Wizard school in the Crytal ball class when our opinion of the future was factual conclusion :D:D

As a Pats fan I hope Denver choke and come crashing down but it wont be because Orton is a bad QB or he sh1t the bed.

FWIW, Orton's performance as per DYAR last season was serviceable. He is worthy of a starting spot somewhere in the league, and won't prevent a team from winning games. But he is far from elite, and is not going to carry a team on his back...

tallaghtoutlaws

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

FWIW, Orton's performance as per DYAR last season was serviceable. He is worthy of a starting spot somewhere in the league, and won't prevent a team from winning games. But he is far from elite, and is not going to carry a team on his back...

I never said he was elite or carrying the team. But again another example of writing a QB off before he finds his true feet. Im a firm believer in a guy like Orton being able to get himself up there with the best given the oppurtunity with a better team. The Denver Offensive weapons are far better than what Cutler has at the Bears and what Orton had in previous years.

ORTON AT A GLANCE:

* A fifth-year quarterback who posted a 21-12 (.636) record as a starter in four seasons with Chicago, including a 15-2 (.882) mark at home that is the best in the NFL since he entered the league in 2005.
* Guided the Bears to a winning season in each of his two years as a full-time starter, including the 2005 campaign when he registered a 10-5 record in 15 starts for a Chicago squad that won the NFC North title.
* Has thrown 22 touchdowns and only two interceptions in the red zone for his career that represent the eighth-best touchdown-to-interception ratio (11.0) in the league since 2005.
* Totaled the fourth-most completions (272) in Bears history for a season as a 15-game starter in 2008, completing 272-of-465 passes for 2,972 yards with a personal-best 18 touchdowns.
* Set a Chicago franchise record for consecutive passes without an interception (205) in 2008 while also ranking second in the NFL with a 116.1 passer rating in the first quarter.
* Guided the Bears to eight consecutive wins as a starter in 2005 that marked the secondlongest winning streak by a rookie quarterback since the 1970 NFL merger.
* Started for three seasons at Purdue University, finishing his collegiate career ranked third in school history in both passing yards (9,337) and touchdown passes (63).

How can anyone write him off and say he is sh1t or not good enough to do anything. Without giving him a chance. Again I stress I dont think he is elite or carrying anyone but in all fairness the Bears offense was not the greatest example of an offense for any QB to work with in the last 5 or 6 years and that includes 2006.

Mike912

I'm all for giving QB's credit, playing that postion in the NFL is a daunting task. Orton must have skills that do not carry over to sensationalized tv for McDaniel to go with him over Cutler. McDaniel is a smart, and very young, coach, he'll be around for a long time in the NFL. As good as McDaniel was with the Patriots, he's going up against his teacher this weekend. Should be a very entertaining game.

LuckyLloyd

You keep posting his winning record. The stats say that he played average while winning those games, aided massively by a team that boasted a great defense and solid running game. Vince Young has a winning record as a starter in the NFL!

And in anycase, I'm not writing him off? I'm just saying he's nowhere near elite, and is unlikely to ever be much more than average for the position in the NFL. And when you consider how tough it is to be a starting QB in the NFL, that is actually high praise if anything.

tallaghtoutlaws

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You keep posting his winning record. The stats say that he played average while winning those games, aided massively by a team that boasted a great defense and solid running game. Vince Young has a winning record as a starter in the NFL!

You are missing the point of his potential but I can see Im wasting my breath as its clear alot of people have already set Ortons future in stone. Look thats fair enough as far as Im concerned given the right tools on offense he can make a name for himself.

Ask yourself this had Orton had a proper offense which included solid WRs on top of the that Bears D with the solid running game do you think we would be discussing this right now? Do you think just maybe that his rating would have been better than it is now? And then people wouldnt be shooting him down so much.

So far he hasnt been horrendous and has done a good job but yet still even you make it out he has. Look I never said he was elite or he carried the Bears but what im saying for the last time he has potential to do something at Denver and drag himself out of the mud that people have put him in because he isnt Jay Cutler.

tallaghtoutlaws

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

And in anycase, I'm not writing him off? I'm just saying he's nowhere near elite, and is unlikely to ever be much more than average for the position in the NFL. And when you consider how tough it is to be a starting QB in the NFL, that is actually high praise if anything.

I never said he was or will be now did I so why are you arguing with me? Elite that is.:rolleyes:

And you have the right to your opinion as I do mine and I feel he can go a step above average if given the chance with Denver. People are just very quick to write him off.

Oh and as for http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb <---This, I generally dont give second glance to any stat that uses sacks against stats of a QB. A high number of sacks are completely out of the hands of any QB. So taking my own logic and applying this to it Any QB who has been on his ass alot wont fare well in these guys stats. Or listen to a stat website that has a Superbowl winning QB ranked down in 33rd the year he does. Eli Manning I know it was his Defense that played a major role but based on his "stats" he ranks 33rd in 2007.

LuckyLloyd

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Oh and as for http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb <---This, I generally dont give second glance to any stat that uses sacks against stats of a QB. A high number of sacks are completely out of the hands of any QB. So taking my own logic and applying this to it Any QB who has been on his ass alot wont fare well in these guys stats. Or listen to a stat website that has a Superbowl winning QB ranked down in 33rd the year he does. Eli Manning I know it was his Defense that played a major role but based on his "stats" he ranks 33rd in 2007.

Manning was not good in 2007!! If you think back, there was a huge amount of media speculation around his performances all the way through that season. That he extended a crucial play during the superbowl and tossed it up there for his receiver to make a circus catch doesn't change the reality that he played poorly overall from the first snap to that point.

The above statistical methodology is excellent imo. Of course sacks aren't always on the QB, but the ability (or lack of) to have a 'quick release' is not a myth.

The Munky

Wow,
suddenly Denver was become a 1 man team all of a sudden. Yes Orton isnt what people would an elite QB but the guy can play.

Despite what anyone says they are still 4-0 which is better than anyone would have thought prior to the season and yes you might say that they have played no one but you same people, before the season started, would have bet your house that The Pats would have beaten the Jets, that the Steelers would have beaten the Bengals and that the Titans should have beaten the Jags....

So it goes to show that you can only beat the team who is in front of you.... and 4-0 is as good an opening start as anyone has at this stage of the season.

Any fool can criticise and most fools do!!

manafana

Guys Orton is decent, and more than deserving of starter spot, and denver got good deal in end out trade, cutler a cannon arm, while ortons steady plays the precentages, and that means the defense while used get that much needed break, broncos running game looks sound, and lets remember marshall is now coming along again.
I think denver will get better as season goes on and they will need to.

D3PO

I know you think Cutler is a better QB than Orton but I thought this deserved its own thread.

Fact 1.

Jay Cutler has never won more games in a season than he has lost as a starter in the NFL.

Kyle Orton has never lost more games in a season than he has won

Fact 2.

Cutler has never lead a team to the playoffs

Kyle Orton has

Fact 3

Cutlers record as an NFL starter is 20 - 21

Ortons record as an NFL starter is 25-12

So in summary your right Cutler is a better QB than Orton because he has a better QB passer rating :rolleyes:

tallaghtoutlaws

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Manning was not good in 2007!! If you think back, there was a huge amount of media speculation around his performances all the way through that season. That he extended a crucial play during the superbowl and tossed it up there for his receiver to make a circus catch doesn't change the reality that he played poorly overall from the first snap to that point.

The above statistical methodology is excellent imo. Of course sacks aren't always on the QB, but the ability (or lack of) to have a 'quick release' is not a myth.

I did say Manning had alot to thank for his defense but Im sorry he helped get his team to the Superbowl and in crucial moments Won the Superbowl. Lets not forget his pass won the game. He controlled his offense in the game simple as and it helped them win. Quick release is crucial but in fairness the majority of sacks come from a position where the QB is not in a position to get the ball away no matter how fast his quick release is. The sack stat used against QBs is ridiculous simple as.

Look one thing stats dont show is pocket presence leadership and the ability to drive your offense down field. Something Eli did in the superbowl. Whether you play **** up until the last 2mins the ability to recover and drive your team forward to win the game in a Superbowl is crucial. Thats kind of pressure.But if you honestly think he should have been ranked 38th out of all the QBs in the NFL that year that is fair enough makes him last. So it kinda makes him the worst QB in the NFL considering there is 32 teams. And alot of those QBs on the list didnt play full seasons above him.

But whatever you are right I am wrong I stand corrected Eli Manning is one of the worst QBs in the NFL especially in 2007 and it was his defense that won the game for him and that any QB could have been at the helm Oh and Kyle Orton is rubbish.

Karlusss

Max Power1 wrote: »

lets see what happens when Orton throws an INT or 2, he hasnt really beeen rattled yet. (Replaceing Cutler as a widely acknowledged worse QB - no pressure. )

Do you genuinely think the Broncos fans wouldn't be booing Orton if he was playing like Delhomme or even Bulger?

Nobody is anointing the guy but this anti-Orton stuff is getting ridiculous. It's not his fault he hasn't played a great team yet with the Broncos, but he literally hasn't done anything wrong yet.

He's putting them in a position to compete with the Chargers for the division, with a tougher schedule, a less talented roster and a first year head coach. Criticise him when he starts to lose, but it's not like he's trying to pull the wool over your eyes and force you to admit he's a great quarterback or something. He's just doing his job.

eagle eye

What a dumb post. All three points you make are pretty much the same thing.

You mention wins as though it makes a difference. Maybe if they both played with the same defense it might but Jay Cutler was in Denver with a disastrous defence which lost games despite him having huge games. The playoffs is just an extension of the above. And of course the wins vs losses is crucial to both those 'facts'.

Jay Cutler is a much more talented QB than Kyle Orton. Anybody with any football between their ears knows that.

davyjose

Brad johnson has more rings than Dan Marino - is he the better QB??? better :rolleyes:

I hate when QB's get rated on championships alone. Cutler has the tools to be an all time great, whether or not he uses them correctly is down to a number of things, but to say he's not as good as Orton based on results, is crazy

davyjose

Karlusss wrote: »

Nobody is anointing the guy but this anti-Orton stuff is getting ridiculous.

I agree tbh. My point was that JMcD forced out one QB for a lesser one. I still belive that, and I still feel (despite cutlers attitude) that McDaniel was an idiot in his handling of things.

That said, I'm very impressed by him, and I'd love to see the Broncos win their division (but lose on my birthday). Cos I hate the chargers .

LuckyLloyd

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

But whatever you are right I am wrong I stand corrected Eli Manning is one of the worst QBs in the NFL especially in 2007 and it was his defense that won the game for him and that any QB could have been at the helm Oh and Kyle Orton is rubbish.

I don't really understand this uber defensive attitude and tone? We're on different sides of a discussion. We can ultimately agree to disagree. This emotive stuff seems kind of unnecessary.

D3PO

eagle eye wrote: »

.

You mention wins as though it makes a difference.

well of course it makes a difference :eek: Ask any headcoach in the world what they want a gunslinger that will throw for 400 yards a game and lose or a guy who wont put up as big stats but will win you games.

100% will have the latter.

Its the same in any sport. Do you want to look good and lose or win ugly ?

D3PO

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You keep posting his winning record. The stats say that he played average while winning those games, aided massively by a team that boasted a great defense and solid running game. Vince Young has a winning record as a starter in the NFL!

.

What exactly is playing average and winning as a QB ? I mean if your running the ball because the opposion cant stop the run why would you move from that to put up stats. Does that mean you had an average game ?

And Vince Young is a very good quarterback. He deservedly has a winning record as he did a good job on the field before he had a complete and utter mind melt.

I really cant understand all this blinkered talk about how much better a QB Cutler is than Orton.

Nobody is saying Orton is Elite we are just saying Cutler isnt (yet) I mean if you look at the facts Orton is a pretty damn good QB

another few not posted yet are that

year on year without fail Ortons completion percentage has improved

year on year without fail Ortons passer rating has improved

year on year without fail Ortons TD to int ratio has improved

year on year without fail Ortons average completion distance has improved

The guy is all upside it cant be denied. Your making him out to be in the league of a Joey Harrington or the likes.

Fact is hes a good your QB whos got massive upside, knows how to win football games and has shown improvement every year hes been in the NFL

Karlusss

D3PO wrote: »

well of course it makes a difference :eek: Ask any headcoach in the world what they want a gunslinger that will throw for 400 yards a game and lose or a guy who wont put up as big stats but will win you games.

100% will have the latter.

Now I'm on the pro-Orton side of this discussion but there's a fairly massive hole in your logic there.

Parse what you said.

400 yards + loss vs. average stats + win


Of course they're going to pick the guy who wins. But like, if it was:

400 yards + loss vs. Cocker Spaniel + win

The coach is still going to take the win.

The point the Cutlerites are making is that a quarterback who can make the throws and throw for 400 yards is a better asset to have than a game-manager who can't. i.e. he will give you a better chance to win. Because Brett Favre, for example, can do what Kyle Orton can do if he has to, but Kyle Orton can't do what Favre can do.