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Grandfather clause pistols

  • 06-10-2009 4:25pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 416 ✭✭


    You won't get any pistol if it's not on the list, grandfather clause was nonsense to keep people quiet (NARGC duped into believing it too). Countrywide policy agreed, if it ain't on the list you ain't getting it. Legalities/promises aside, this is what is now happening (I hope I was dreaming and I'm wrong). All grandfather clause people are being shafted.


    Some will say I shouldn't have posted this yet, but I reckon it really doesn't matter now either way. And the recipient of the letters (hand delivered by two seniors) said "tell who you like".

    Really sorry for the bad news.


«13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    Another rumour ? ...............................


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 416 ✭✭G17


    Another rumour ? ...............................

    Here's hoping! But no, not this time. :(


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,726 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    So we're all loosing our licences? Pre Nov 18th and all?
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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 416 ✭✭G17


    ezridax wrote: »
    So we're all loosing our licences? Pre Nov 18th and all?

    Pre Nov 18th and all.

    And look, before anyone starts saying, can you post the letters online, I can't or I don't want to publish names. But when you hear as you likely will shortly from mates in the community by text or whatever who the recipient of those letters was, you'll sigh just as deeply as I have. This guy is no shrinking violet when it comes to these matters.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,726 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    S**t. Not shocked but a little surprised. Thought some would get to keep them.
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 D DOG


    A number of people have recieved these letters today.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,726 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Remember all the talk of good reason, continuous usage, range attendance etc, does this mean even if all the criteria is met it still doesn't matter?




    Not shocked but a little surprised


    P.S. I take it back i'm shocked.
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 110 ✭✭Lemon3


    With Grandfather clause gone, it looks like its going to be a bleak Xmas.
    I'm one of the many who will lose out here, this is sickening, but only the hopelessly optimistic did not see this one coming.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    stick up the letter here if you have it , and since the grandfather clause is written into law are the garda / doj /minister not in breach of there own law now ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    rowa wrote: »
    stick up the letter here if you have it , and since the grandfather clause is written into law are the garda / doj /minister not in breach of there own law now ?
    I think you might be right there Rowa. There's certainly from the sound of what G17 is saying a complete disregard of this:
    3D.—(1) As and from the date of commencement of this section, no application for a firearm certificate in respect of a short firearm shall be considered by an issuing person other than for—
    (c) a short firearm for which the applicant for the firearm certificate held a fire arm certificate on or before 19 November 2008.

    But it needs to be clarified and it also needs to be taken up in the proper channels to make sure it's not somebody inventing the firearms acts again. :(

    Those days should be well behind us seeing as there's more than enough law on the statute books at this stage.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,726 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    +1 rrpc
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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    has anyone received a new licence for a centrefire pistol ? i don't want to believe this until i see something concrete , if it is true then i think compensation becomes an issue despite those who say we're not entitled to it , maybe we could be paid out of o'donaghues repayment to the state .:mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 416 ✭✭G17


    Here's another bit of bad news, big game rifle (restricted)? You might get a certificate but a condition will be you can't fire it in the state. I have no idea if that applies to .22 tube mag rifles, but it might.

    I'm posting nothing but joy today............


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    G17 wrote: »
    Here's another bit of bad news, big game rifle (restricted)? You might get a certificate but a condition will be you can't fire it in the state. I have no idea if that applies to .22 tube mag rifles, but it might.

    I'm posting nothing but joy today............

    yes but how on earth can they police that ? if someone is living in the back of beyond with the nearest police station 20 miles away whats to stop them rambling off to the nearest forestry or bog and firing a few rounds ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,156 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Sorry,will need to see proof of this in some shape or form.IE Written on paper proof.This looks like somone making it up as they go along,cherrypicking bits from the guidelines and legislation or testing the waters to see what they can get away with in the future..

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Sorry,will need to see proof of this in some shape or form.IE Written on paper proof.This looks like somone making it up as they go along,cherrypicking bits from the guidelines and legislation or testing the waters to see what they can get away with in the future..

    making it up as they go along , cherrypicking , yep sounds exactly like what the gardai/doj have been doing for the past 40 years regarding firearms legislation .
    i don't see how they can tell someone that they can't fire a legally held rifle on an authorized range , its either legally held and authorized or its not .
    i wouldn't be suprised if they did try something on regarding the centrefire pistols , a cousin of mine applied for his (.40 s+w) last week to be told " if it's not on the list you won't be getting it "


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,726 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    While we all wouldn't be surprised for something like this to happen i think Grizzly and rowa have it right. It seems like a water testing exercise, but as its written into the CJ(MP)A how can they ignore this piece of legislation and do a 180. Is there a legal eagle out there that could shed some light on this?
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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    G17 wrote: »
    Here's another bit of bad news, big game rifle (restricted)? You might get a certificate but a condition will be you can't fire it in the state. I have no idea if that applies to .22 tube mag rifles, but it might.

    I'm posting nothing but joy today............
    Big game would be restricted (> .308"). It would need to be clarified as to what the applicant put down on the form because membership of Midlands should* allow you to shoot big bore rifle here.

    *This would need to be clarified by Midlands.

    The .22 tube mag thing is a bit of hyperbole, understandable in the circumstances, but we don't need hyseria letting loose. :eek:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    Probabily because they know that the likes of the nargc etc aren't going to mount a court challenge , they know they have us on the back foot and no one has the money to spend on court procedings anyway .Divide and conquer !

    Has anyone gotten one of these letters ? can you stick it up here if you have , i'd like to see proof of this .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 416 ✭✭G17


    It is water testing I reckon. But how many years for appeals and the like, and what of the poor target pistol (non Olympic) shooters in the interim.

    rrpc wrote: »
    but we don't need hyseria letting loose. :eek:

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, too late. :eek::eek::eek::eek:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,370 ✭✭✭ranger4


    rowa wrote: »
    Probabily because they know that the likes of the nargc etc aren't going to mount a court challenge , they know they have us on the back foot and no one has the money to spend on court procedings anyway .Divide and conquer !

    Has anyone gotten one of these letters ? can you stick it up here if you have , i'd like to see proof of this .


    **** the court costs, Stick together and mount a huge challenge.:mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 118 ✭✭hk


    ezridax wrote: »
    While we all wouldn't be surprised for something like this to happen i think Grizzly and rowa have it right. It seems like a water testing exercise, but as its written into the CJ(MP)A how can they ignore this piece of legislation and do a 180. Is there a legal eagle out there that could shed some light on this?


    They are not ignoring the leglislation, they are following it. I pointed out months ago that this was going to happen.

    Read the leglislation again, it says that people who had a pistol prior to the cut off date were permitted to apply for a licience. At no stage did the leglislation state that once you applied the licience would be granted.

    They were aforded the opportunity under the leglislation to reapply under the leglislation. However it was decided for what ever reason that they were not going to grant the licience, well within the current leglislation.

    Again I pointed this out months ago, I also said that high power rifles were on the way out followed by almost everything else, this is also starting to bear out.

    Shame on those who didnt act when there was a chance to prevent this, including individuals, and especially the A**holes who decided to try to fight their corner only, its not looking so rosey in the garden for them now either.

    Now people might take their heads out of their ass and act together as one group.

    I cant say I didnt see this day coming, anyone who thought that the grandfather rule was any guarentee needs to look hard at the leglislation again, anyway the grandfather rule is unjustly and unfair and would likely have been overturned resulting in a complete ban ful stop.

    Looking forward to see if others dont fall to this fate also

    Best of luck to those ike myself still awaiting a response.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18 atals77


    Looks like the Secure Accommodation S.I. was a waste of paper. We won't need any alarms (monitored or otherwise) if this pistol news turns out to be true and becomes more widespread.
    They may as well remove the Restriced option from FAC1 while they are at it.

    Why am I not surprised we've been scr***d.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    hk wrote: »
    They are not ignoring the leglislation, they are following it. I pointed out months ago that this was going to happen.

    Read the leglislation again, it says that people who had a pistol prior to the cut off date were permitted to apply for a licience. At no stage did the leglislation state that once you applied the licience would be granted.
    No sh*t Sherlock :rolleyes:, it has been always thus. I've never seen anything in the firearms acts that said: "to get a licence thou shalt merely apply for one".
    They were aforded the opportunity under the leglislation to reapply under the leglislation. However it was decided for what ever reason that they were not going to grant the licience, well within the current leglislation.

    Again I pointed this out months ago, I also said that high power rifles were on the way out followed by almost everything else, this is also starting to bear out.
    Um, the high powered licence was granted, just couldn't be used here. There's still a question of whether there was a suitable place to use it here available to the applicant, and that means a range that's authorised for the calibre.
    I cant say I didnt see this day coming, anyone who thought that the grandfather rule was any guarentee needs to look hard at the leglislation again, anyway the grandfather rule is unjustly and unfair and would likely have been overturned resulting in a complete ban ful stop.
    So what you're saying is we should take the 'nothing' part of the 'all or nothing' appproach?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    atals77 wrote: »
    Looks like the Secure Accommodation S.I. was a waste of paper. We won't need any alarms (monitored or otherwise) if this pistol news turns out to be true and becomes more widespread.
    They may as well remove the Restriced option from FAC1 while they are at it.
    It's not just pistols that are restricted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    if as seems likely this pistol refusal news is true and we're wasting time filling in the application form to start with ,then are we entitled to take this to the circuit court ?
    i have had a centrefire pistol for over 3 years now with absolutely no incidents or accidents , surely this is proof for a court that me holding the licence is no threat to the safety of the public ?
    is this the guards chancing there arm or ahern bringing in a complete ban via the back door ? i am now left holding a pistol that is worthless despite the fact that i paid a substancial amount of money for it , am entitled to compensation for its original value seeing as i am being denied the use of my own property ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    rowa wrote: »
    if as seems likely this pistol refusal news is true and we're wasting time filling in the application form to start with ,then are we entitled to take this to the circuit court ?
    i have had a centrefire pistol for over 3 years now with absolutely no incidents or accidents , surely this is proof for a court that me holding the licence is no threat to the safety of the public ?
    is this the guards chancing there arm or ahern bringing in a complete ban via the back door ? i am now left holding a pistol that is worthless despite the fact that i paid a substancial amount of money for it , am entitled to compensation for its original value seeing as i am being denied the use of my own property ?
    OK, you haven't been refused yet, so you've nothing to appeal. Why not wait?

    It's unfortunate that these refusals have come up so quickly. I'd like to see a few licences granted before I'd start assuming the worst (though for those concerned it obviously can't get any worse).

    There are avenues for appeal and these should be availed of, but it's more than a bit early to start thinking so negatively.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 118 ✭✭hk


    rrpc wrote: »
    OK, you haven't been refused yet, so you've nothing to appeal. Why not wait?

    It's unfortunate that these refusals have come up so quickly. I'd like to see a few licences granted before I'd start assuming the worst (though for those concerned it obviously can't get any worse).

    There are avenues for appeal and these should be availed of, but it's more than a bit early to start thinking so negatively.


    Completely agree,
    The point i was making about the leglislation is the same as you made, people here seem to think that if they had the pistols prior to the cut off date they were automatically entitled to keep them, was just pointing out this is not the case and we should wait to see how others get on.

    I dont think it was all or nothing and I feel if all shooters stuck together we would be in a better position, there are people out there who believed that a pistol ban was ok as it wouldnt affect them. There seems to be anactidotial evidence to suggest that people are having trouble liciencing shotguns and rifles, just saying a little untiy between shooters of all types would be far more benificial to the community as a whole


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    hk wrote: »
    Completely agree,
    The point i was making about the leglislation is the same as you made, people here seem to think that if they had the pistols prior to the cut off date they were automatically entitled to keep them, was just pointing out this is not the case and we should wait to see how others get on.

    I dont think it was all or nothing and I feel if all shooters stuck together we would be in a better position, there are people out there who believed that a pistol ban was ok as it wouldnt affect them. There seems to be anactidotial evidence to suggest that people are having trouble liciencing shotguns and rifles, just saying a little untiy between shooters of all types would be far more benificial to the community as a whole
    I think people are over egging the pudding with regard to what 'power' we actually have when it comes to persuading Ministers etc. Perhaps if we had the IFA on board, we might have achieved something, but it appears the IFA are only interested in their own agenda; quelle surprise :rolleyes:

    We have very little bargaining power, the only thing in our favour at the moment is that the Minister is on record as saying that the vast majority of license holders would have nothing to fear and that the new laws were designed to eliminate inconsistencies in the application of the firearms acts.

    Time will tell, but making up the firearms acts as you go along was supposed to be a thing of the past, so let's wait and see.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    rrpc wrote: »
    OK, you haven't been refused yet, so you've nothing to appeal. Why not wait?

    It's unfortunate that these refusals have come up so quickly. I'd like to see a few licences granted before I'd start assuming the worst (though for those concerned it obviously can't get any worse).

    There are avenues for appeal and these should be availed of, but it's more than a bit early to start thinking so negatively.

    can't help but feel rrpc that this has been a ban by stealth , with only paper target shooting left since the ban on practical there is no reason for shooting a centrefire in the eyes of the law , the super is going to say sure you can have a pistol, but not a military style one but a nice safe match pistol and hey-presto centrefire gone .
    this is just a gut feeling i have , hope i am wrong .


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,726 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    hk wrote: »
    Completely agree,
    The point i was making about the leglislation is the same as you made, people here seem to think that if they had the pistols prior to the cut off date they were automatically entitled to keep them, was just pointing out this is not the case and we should wait to see how others get on.

    On a personal note i never thought i was entitled to my licences (not that naive) but being pre Nov. 18th i had some level of expectation of a fair hearing (so to speak).
    I dont think it was all or nothing and I feel if all shooters stuck together we would be in a better position, there are people out there who believed that a pistol ban was ok as it wouldnt affect them. There seems to be anactidotial evidence to suggest that people are having trouble liciencing shotguns and rifles, just saying a little untiy between shooters of all types would be far more benificial to the community as a whole

    Couldn't agree more. I covered this in another thread http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055700573 , post 7 and 15.
    Originally Posted by rrpc

    We have very little bargaining power, the only thing in our favour at the moment is that the Minister is on record as saying that the vast majority of license holders would have nothing to fear and that the new laws were designed to eliminate inconsistencies in the application of the firearms acts.

    We have no bargaining power. With 1800 (approx) pistols licenced and some owning 2 or 3 there are roughly 1400 or less actual sports shooters. Take away .22 and others that fall outside the centrefire remit and we become those outside the vast majority.
    Originally Posted by rowa

    can't help but feel rrpc that this has been a ban by stealth.......

    Its looking that way. On a personal note i will not be surrendering a €2500 firearm without compensation. Surrender it to the Gardai who either don't sell it, leave it too late and destroy it or sell it for €200. Not going to happen. I know some will say give it to a dealer. Seriously what dealer is going to take in pistols they cannot resell either here (no licences) or abroad where they are cheaper to buy new than ours are second hand. I'm trying not to be all doom and gloom, it is still early days, but you can't help but expect the worst.
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    rowa wrote: »
    not a military style one but a nice safe match pistol

    Contradiction in terms.

    By Definition a match pistol is more accurate - therefore more dangerous.

    B'Man


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    you say ezridax that you will not be surrendering your pistol unless compensation is paid , i have heard others saying similar things along those lines too , but what are you going to do ? you've been refused a licence for your pistol and as such then hold an unlicenced firearm , what happens next ? i could see a couple of cars full of armed police turning up at your door with a warrant and demanding you hand it over ,

    what are you going to do in that case ? if you simply hand the gun into a dealer the guards would be satisfied as you no longer hold the gun and will not be getting it back , job done in there eyes ,

    i can see us all taking a bath on our centrefires and no one in the public giving a tinkers curse about us .

    the brightest star in the sky is hoping for a change of goverment and a more sympathic minister of justice , put it in storage until then or a total loss .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Bananaman wrote: »
    By Definition a match pistol is more accurate - therefore more dangerous.
    Really? We're going there that fast B'man? It's not enough to be kicked from one side, you need to kick from the other as well? :mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    rowa wrote: »
    you say ezridax that you will not be surrendering your pistol unless compensation is paid
    There won't be compensation because there isn't any change of ownership. And if you can't sell it for cost now, hand it in, let the state cover the storage costs, and either re-licence in the future or sell on.

    But before we get there, lets try working the problem first.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,726 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    rowa wrote: »
    you say ezridax that you will not be surrendering your pistol unless compensation is paid , i have heard others saying similar things along those lines too , but what are you going to do ? .... .

    Let me clarify my point and position. I paid €2500 for my pistol. Accessories cost a few hundred more but we'll stay with the pistol for the time being. I will not hand that firearm over to the Gardai and be completely at their mercy in relation to getting a fair deal (price wise) for the firearm. Do you honestly believe there are not Gardai in the armed units drooling at the prospect of getting a significantly more accurate and reliable firearm than could be got before through the state.

    I (if the s**t hit the fan) would have no choice but to surrender my firearm and would do so to a GUN dealer if i had to. My point about the dealers is, they may or may not take in firearms for storage or for sale. How many restricted firearms dealers are out there. Now divide the number of pistol owners by that amount. A dealer could have upwards of 100 firearms "in storage" at any one time. If however the dealers could take the firearms in and sell them i'm still faced with the possibility that they will not get a reasonable price as some pistols are cheaper to buy in Europe and definietly cheaper in the states than what we paid for them here. I'm not stupid and think that i will get even close to what i paid for mine back again but i wouldn't be letting anyone sell it for say, 20 - 25% of its value.

    Then there is the cost of storage. I've heard everything from €50 - €200 per month. Times are tough enough without having to fork out anything extra. I've already invested heavily in my security measures at home to make sure i met with certain criteria. Now some of that security seems unnecessary.

    To be honest i don't know exactly where i stand and you never know all this ranting and raving may be for nothing. I could get a letter in the morning saying my application was succesful. We are all in unchartered waters, some without a paddle, and i'm trying to keep afloat. One thing i do know for sure, if the decision does not go my way i've have a few reasons for appeal and will fight tooth and nail to keep my firearm both for my own sake and the sake of my sport.
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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 329 ✭✭meathshooter


    under the new act you have 30 days to appeal you need as far I know get a form 100.1 from the district court you can download it to and fill it out you don't need a solicitor to do this but would help, but this will not be won in the district court but I'm sure it will not end there I hope. I cannot afford a high court challenge I hope Des is reading this and comes to our aid and also the other fine sportsmen who had the balls to stand up to this bull in the first place after all Des was lied to surprise surprise.I have this form filled out and ready to be lodged haven't got refusal letter yet. we need a case that will win to set precedence and we need to stand united a one cause lets face it what will be NEXT,hopefully we will have a change of government shortly which fingers crossed will be more sympathetic to our sport and not just political bull and start sacking top garda who are incompetent at tackeling crime and deflect the limelight at easy targets in there cusy little numbers (wonder what expences they spend at the top )and stop harassing law abiding citizens


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 416 ✭✭G17


    after all Des was lied to

    I 100% believe that to be the case.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,156 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    .
    Do you honestly believe there are not Gardai in the armed units drooling at the prospect of getting a significantly more accurate and reliable firearm than could be got before through the state.

    Oh please do!! The thought of the ERU unit walking around with customised pistols with a 3.5 lb or less modified trigger,or some other non spec firearm modification on police duty,will get every litigatious lawyer worth his fee out celebrating since the Beef tribunal!!For the first "accidental discharge" or shooting incident to sue the ass of the State or Garda for using a non specified duty firearm???There are plenty of police depts and expolice officers now working in Mc Donalds in the States who will testify as to how they have been taken to the cleaners by good lawyers on the fact alone that their officers were using standard issue dept firearms,but didnt use them correctly.The NYC transit police spring to mind with the Glock.Their trigger pull had to be modified to 6.5lbs!!After a very nasty shooting incident and lawsuit.
    "trigger reset" had a lot to do with it I belive.

    Just noted past 2000 posts [Yoo Hoo],without getting banned and no doubt peeing off many here and in "authorithy"[you know who you are!]

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 329 ✭✭meathshooter


    they would want to learn how to use them first I know one or two gards that are good shots the rest would want to go to spec savers and I think thats what scares them and I would rather put mine trough a chop saw than give them


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,570 ✭✭✭Rovi


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Oh please do!! The thought of the ERU unit walking around with customised pistols with a 3.5 lb or less modified trigger,or some other non spec firearm modification on police duty,will get every litigatious lawyer worth his fee out celebrating since the Beef tribunal!!For the first "accidental discharge" or shooting incident to sue the ass of the State or Garda for using a non specified duty firearm???There are plenty of police depts and expolice officers now working in Mc Donalds in the States who will testify as to how they have been taken to the cleaners by good lawyers on the fact alone that their officers were using standard issue dept firearms,but didnt use them correctly.The NYC transit police spring to mind with the Glock.Their trigger pull had to be modified to 6.5lbs!!After a very nasty shooting incident and lawsuit.
    "trigger reset" had a lot to do with it I belive.
    Absolutely correct.
    There's no way on God's little green earth that any Garda on duty will carry anything other than an officially issued firearm.
    The potential for litigation would be stupendous.
    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Just noted past 2000 posts [Yoo Hoo],without getting banned and no doubt peeing off many here and in "authorithy"[you know who you are!]
    BANNED! :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 416 ✭✭G17


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    .
    Just noted past 2000 posts

    A fine mix of hilarity, nonsense, sense, conjecture, incitement, wisdom, despair, incredulity, campness, knowledge, loaded questions, empty breech questions, butchness, titilation, belittlement, encouragement and passion.

    Indeed you are mad as a stick but the forum is probably a better place for it (terms and condition apply).


    :D:D:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    Sparks wrote: »
    Really? We're going there that fast B'man? It's not enough to be kicked from one side, you need to kick from the other as well? :mad:

    I just find it offensive that the Gardai can declare that an Olympic Match Pistol is any more or less dangerous than a centrefire target pistol when it is absolutely untrue.

    To use this as an argument for declining a license application is disingenuous.

    To not argue that point is to put ones head in the sand and hope that one does not take one in the donkey.

    B'Man


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Bananaman wrote: »
    I just find it offensive that the Gardai can declare that an Olympic Match Pistol is any more or less dangerous than a centrefire target pistol when it is absolutely untrue.
    I agree.
    Point either at someone and they're dangerous to the point where trying to measure the level of risk is an assine activity.
    However, saying that the Match pistols are more dangerous because they're more accurate is even more daft.

    you don't need a solicitor to do this but would help, but this will not be won in the district court but I'm sure it will not end there
    Okay, two things - firstly, never go to court without a professional. Ever. Doesn't matter what for. If it's important enough to go to court, it's important enough to bring a solicitor at least (in a DC) or a barrister.

    Secondly, we're not there yet, but if we do go there, I'd lay odds we would be going past the DCs. And that means money. Lots of it.
    If you're going down this road, be sure you've got the funds for it, and also be sure you've spoken to people on the FCP like jaycee.

    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    The thought of the ERU unit walking around with customised pistols with a 3.5 lb or less modified trigger,or some other non spec firearm modification on police duty,will get every litigatious lawyer worth his fee out celebrating since the Beef tribunal!
    Forget using an non-issued firearm, you're talking about a member of the ERU being proven to have stolen a firearm from Garda custody (remember, ownership has not changed hands - unless the owner gives permission for the firearm to be removed from storage, it's theft, regardless of who takes it).
    Noone's going to risk that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,570 ✭✭✭Rovi


    In the hands of someone who doesn't know what they're doing or someone with ill intent, they're ALL 'dangerous' (as are kitchen knives, cars, etc).
    Obviously, we who know something about shooting know that in the hands of someone with ill intent who knows what they're doing, a more accurate firearm is more 'dangerous' in that it allows them to carry out their evil deeds more efficiently and to greater effect, while to the uninformed knee-jerkers who must be seen to be doing something, 'dangerous' is defined by buzzwords (Glock, magnum, semi-automatic, etc), or physical appearance (black, pistol grip, shoulder things that go up :rolleyes:, etc).

    Unfortunately, the noble guardians tasked with saving us from ourselves hold all the cards here. :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    Sparks wrote: »
    ..........and also be sure you've spoken to people on the FCP like jaycee.....QUOTE]

    :eek: thrown to wolves :)

    A public statement from shooting groups on FCP would be welcome soon....nudge, nudge :o


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭pedroeibar


    Sparks wrote: »

    Forget using an non-issued firearm, you're talking about a member of the ERU being proven to have stolen a firearm from Garda custody (remember, ownership has not changed hands - unless the owner gives permission for the firearm to be removed from storage, it's theft, regardless of who takes it).
    Noone's going to risk that.

    I think it is a bit more complicated than that. Nor am I suggesting that any garda would take/use a weapon from a station. AFAIK if you surrender your weapon for safekeeping you retain title. If it is seized it becomes the property of the Minister. That is worth checking out if you are faced with a gun & no licence situation.
    P.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,570 ✭✭✭Rovi


    pedroeibar wrote: »
    I think it is a bit more complicated than that. Nor am I suggesting that any garda would take/use a weapon from a station. AFAIK if you surrender your weapon for safekeeping you retain title. If it is seized it becomes the property of the Minister. That is worth checking out if you are faced with a gun & no licence situation.
    P.
    :mad: <SMACK>

    :D

    If it finally boils down to me having to surrender my FIREARM to the State, they'll be getting only the serial numbered parts, and those will be inoperable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭foxshooter243


    ezridax wrote: »
    Let me clarify my point and position. I paid €2500 for my pistol. Accessories cost a few hundred more but we'll stay with the pistol for the time being. I will not hand that firearm over to the Gardai and be completely at their mercy in relation to getting a fair deal (price wise) for the firearm. Do you honestly believe there are not Gardai in the armed units drooling at the prospect of getting a significantly more accurate and reliable firearm than could be got before through the state.

    I (if the s**t hit the fan) would have no choice but to surrender my firearm and would do so to a GUN dealer if i had to. My point about the dealers is, they may or may not take in firearms for storage or for sale. How many restricted firearms dealers are out there. Now divide the number of pistol owners by that amount. A dealer could have upwards of 100 firearms "in storage" at any one time. If however the dealers could take the firearms in and sell them i'm still faced with the possibility that they will not get a reasonable price as some pistols are cheaper to buy in Europe and definietly cheaper in the states than what we paid for them here. I'm not stupid and think that i will get even close to what i paid for mine back again but i wouldn't be letting anyone sell it for say, 20 - 25% of its value.

    Then there is the cost of storage. I've heard everything from €50 - €200 per month. Times are tough enough without having to fork out anything extra. I've already invested heavily in my security measures at home to make sure i met with certain criteria. Now some of that security seems unnecessary.

    To be honest i don't know exactly where i stand and you never know all this ranting and raving may be for nothing. I could get a letter in the morning saying my application was succesful. We are all in unchartered waters, some without a paddle, and i'm trying to keep afloat. One thing i do know for sure, if the decision does not go my way i've have a few reasons for appeal and will fight tooth and nail to keep my firearm both for my own sake and the sake of my sport.

    whilst your on the subject of dealers storing firearms EZ, a dealer in Donegal told me that Dealers are restricted as to how many pistols they can hold or store at any one time, so there maybe another obstacle in the way of folks who may wish to hold their firearms in storage with the hope of being able to licence them in the future. This is info passed on to me and I cant guarentee the veracity of it , but is well worth checking out;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭4gun


    might I make a suggestion as far as finance are concerned
    why not set up a bank account and publish the number on line for visitors of this forum and other bodies, so that individuals or dealers can donate to the possible court cost of fighting this case, I'm pretty sure that there can be found some persons from the shooting fraternity who would have the intregrity to manage the funds appropriately
    FAS employee's need not apply:D


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