Greens - Vaccinate Badgers NOT Children.

Macha

Raiser wrote: »

I've assessed each 'fact' on its merits and despite their being well presented and correct in premise and accuracy, common sense requires that I'd still redirect you back to the house on fire analogy.

You are working off the assumption that bovine TB does not have a cost. And you also create the false choice between the HPV vaccine and the badger vaccine.

Of course I think that the HPV vaccine should have come in and it's a disgrace that it didn't. But there are other important things that need funding. Why aren't you lashing out at the new €18m theatre recently opened in Carlow, or any other number of "less important" initiatives?

For me, this is another classic case of the true costs of an issue not being fully understood. Internalisation of all costs is a fundamental value of sustainable thinking.

Raiser wrote: »

Bertrand Russell has been quoted on the topic of Muesli bars? I think you've botched your sig.....

Ah yes, they were a personal favourite of his.

Arfan

This is still going on? Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my explanation.

There is no competition between a badger vaccination program and a children's vaccination program. It is perfectly possible to run both such programs. There is no THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE argument. It is not the last standing policy wins. Having one of the above policies does not preclude support or opposition for the other. I hope this clears up the mistake you've been continually making throughout this thread Raiser.

The_Minister wrote:

Except that we are kinda short on money now.

This is a fair point which is why programs should always be evaluated on their own merits independently in terms of cost, benefit, importance, dancing monkeys, etc.

Alun

On the badger thing, I know that in those parts of Europe where they still have rabies in the wild, they use an orally administered vaccine that they put in food that they scatter in areas where the animals (foxes mainly) are prevalent. I'm guessing the same thing could be done with TB and badgers, so no need to catch them and vaccinate them.

Raiser

Diarmuid wrote: »

Totally agree. This whole thread is a perfect example of a false dichotomy and is being used to have another good old bash of the greens

Whether you agree with the Greens or not at least they have principles. With the ridicule (muesli bars / cycling to work) that is heaped upon them for standing up for those principles it is clear that the idea of a principled politician is anathema to the Irish public yet cute hoorism and cronyism is accepted. No wonder we are screwed.

BTW I've never voted green party.

The Green Party have "principles" ???? Well that's certainly news to me.... Are you sure you're not confusing principles with their pushing nonsensical, selfish, self-validating, moronic agendas while at the same time being complicit in reprehensible politics and scandal?

- The way I see it is that The Greens are enabling Fianna Fail to do as they please, while either supporting, condoning, contributing to, ignoring or denying the scandals unfolding around them.

Anyone can talk about principles, anyone can have principles - You just need to have deceny, morality and integrity to accompany them - just look at the Nazi Party - They had a pile of principles; But they were all shíte......

How can you call them principled when they have tacitly approved of all of the below through their continued participation in this Government?

• School children having to be taught in rat infested and wholly inadequate facilities. If schools were private concerns the health and safety authority would have closed many of them down. But the government skews everything in their favour.
  
• Children's rights amendment being postponed again - cos if it was enacted the govt could be held to account too much for our piss-poor health/education/special needs services
  
• The underfunding of the health service to such an extent that countless people suffer and die as a result of the negligence
  
• Cervical cancer vaccinations for young girls being withdrawn at a cost of €10 million in comparison to what we're paying to bail out banks....scandalous
  
• John O'Donoghue and his Expenses
  
• NAMA
  
• Rody Molloy's pay-off.
  
• Poor treatment by State of victims of sexual abuse.
  
• Banking scandals: the Anglo nationwide loans and deposits.
  
• Bonuses to failed and corrupt bankers.
  
• Financial regulator pay-off and pension.
  
• Martin Cullens abuse of government jet
  
• Mary Harney's abuse of the government jet
  
• Patrick Neary and his secret payoff
  
• Unvouched Government expenses
  
• The near death of a whole train load of people north of Malahide because the government would not fund the railway safety group adequately to conduct proper inspections
  
• The fact Judges don't have to pay the pension levy.
  
• Batt O'Keefe referring to the inmates of Magdalene Laundries as 'employees'.
  
• The mental health service underfunding and resultant effects including suicide, homelessness and violence.
  
• The vast waste of public money in administration of the HSE.
  
• The continued existence of cartels in many areas of Irish life.
  
• The cosy relationship between Pharmaceutical Companies and Government at the expense of the consumer through removal of non brand drugs and price fixing.
  
• State funding of private schools
  
• Shells Rossport shennanigans.
  
• Undeclared Political Campaign donations for FF TD's and Senators
  
• €50million spent by Dept of Education on renting prefabs for schools
  
• The cartel of vested interests who coalesce around "non-party" Health Minister Harney and her husband (through his lobbying company) to privatise by stealth the public health service and in so doing transfer as much of the public health budget into private hands as quickly as possible. The vast conflict of interest here is so big, few can see it.
  
• Private patients' insurance companies not having to pay for their clients' use of public beds.
  
• Political appointments to an Bord Pleannala
  
• Greens now in power have done nothing about EPA's political directors despite having once cried bitterly over it

* List taken in part from Inthemires scandal list on politics.ie

Arfan

Raiser wrote:

just look at the Nazi Party

Well that just about wraps up this thread. Thanks for coming everyone.

Raiser

Raiser wrote:

just look at the Nazi Party

Arfan wrote: »

Well that just about wraps up this thread. Thanks for coming everyone.

Don't be underhanded Arfan - its not acceptable to partially quote someone, while removing the context and original intent just because you are lost for an answer.....

Raiser wrote:

Anyone can talk about principles, anyone can have principles - You just need to have decency, morality and integrity to accompany them - just look at the Nazi Party - They had a pile of principles; But they were all shíte......

What I said was intended to be a humorous Godwins Law dig at the Green Party's "principles" - Sorry if there weren't enough pastel coloured smilies in there for you :rolleyes: :cool:

spank_inferno

The decision to remove cervical cancer vaccines was taken by the department of health and the HSE, not by the green party

They went with their decision based on advise that screening is as effective as vaccination.

The Green party are in charge of the dept of the environment so working with the Dept of Agriculture, a programe to vaccine badgers against TB would be in their remit (and not an unworthy programe may I add)

And aswell....
If any parent would like their daughter to have the HPV vaccine they can head down to their GP and get it, they may have to pay a few euro, but they can get it.

Its a sad day when parents abdicate their responsibilities towards their childrens healthcare to the government.


There is so many good reasons to pour scorn on the Green Party
This one however just doesnt add up

Arfan

Raiser wrote: »

Don't be underhanded Arfan

I wasn't. I was conceding the thread to you. I'd been racking my brains here trying to come up with a Nazi reference and you beat me to it. I have been utterly out-Godwinned sir.

And they are pretty coloured smilies.

CCCP^

Arfan wrote: »

This is still going on? Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my explanation.

There is no competition between a badger vaccination program and a children's vaccination program. It is perfectly possible to run both such programs. There is no THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE argument. It is not the last standing policy wins. Having one of the above policies does not preclude support or opposition for the other. I hope this clears up the mistake you've been continually making throughout this thread Raiser.


This is a fair point which is why programs should always be evaluated on their own merits independently in terms of cost, benefit, importance, dancing monkeys, etc.

I agree that if we were awash with money it would be a good idea, even though I feel other measures can be taken against bovine TB. I agree with the idea of vaccinating the badgers because it can save the badgers from further culls and possible extermination from Ireland. It makes sense, and for a political party in this country to advocate something that makes sense, atleast in theory, is a welcomed approach.

However, I feel the Greens really sold themselves out going into government with FF. FF will survive the recession, maybe lose alot of seats and possibly be in opposition for a few years, but will utlimately come back, thats the horrible reality, because a FG/Labour coalition will be totally indecisive because of the power struggle between Kenny and Gilmore. The Greens may not survive, there is a seemingly successful deflection of anger at our current situation from FF onto the Greens amongst the public, and I feel they will suffer greatly at the next GE. I would have actually gave them a vote if they had had candidates in Laois/Offaly (where I am originally from) but I believe they didn't even field candidates there.

magicbastarder

Raiser wrote: »

How can you call them principled when they have tacitly approved of all of the below through their continued participation in this Government?

CCCP^

magicbastarder wrote: »

Haha...I don't get it

magicbastarder

it's the 'i find your arguments highly illogical' response.

meathstevie

CCCP^ wrote: »

I agree that if we were awash with money it would be a good idea, even though I feel other measures can be taken against bovine TB. I agree with the idea of vaccinating the badgers because it can save the badgers from further culls and possible extermination from Ireland. It makes sense, and for a political party in this country to advocate something that makes sense, atleast in theory, is a welcomed approach.

However, I feel the Greens really sold themselves out going into government with FF. FF will survive the recession, maybe lose alot of seats and possibly be in opposition for a few years, but will utlimately come back, thats the horrible reality, because a FG/Labour coalition will be totally indecisive because of the power struggle between Kenny and Gilmore. The Greens may not survive, there is a seemingly successful deflection of anger at our current situation from FF onto the Greens amongst the public, and I feel they will suffer greatly at the next GE. I would have actually gave them a vote if they had had candidates in Laois/Offaly (where I am originally from) but I believe they didn't even field candidates there.

Badgers are far from extinct in Ireland. Personally I believe the main argument against indiscriminate culling is the fact that other badgers that could be TB carriers will take up vacant territories of badgers that happened to be healty.

Personally I think the Greens made a far bigger mistake in their proposals regarding one of the biggest scourges on native wildlife : feral cats.

Imagine the cost of curing and neutering every disease ridden feral cat in Ireland ? How many hospital beds would that finance or cervical cancer vaccines would that buy ?

djpbarry

meathstevie wrote: »

Personally I think the Greens made a far bigger mistake in their proposals regarding one of the biggest scourges on native wildlife : feral cats.

Imagine the cost of curing and neutering every disease ridden feral cat in Ireland ? How many hospital beds would that finance or cervical cancer vaccines would that buy ?

The ultimate conclusion of this line of reasoning is that absolutely nothing should be spent on anything other than healthcare until absolutely every single member of the population is 100% healthy and is not in need of hospital treatment, vaccines, etc. There is always more that could be done to promote the health of the population, but that does not mean that absolutely no consideration should be given to any non-healthcare related endeavour. Besides, the potential negative consequences of this government’s decision not to fund the cervical cancer vaccine with public funds are being ridiculously overstated.

meathstevie

djpbarry wrote: »

The ultimate conclusion of this line of reasoning is that absolutely nothing should be spent on anything other than healthcare until absolutely every single member of the population is 100% healthy and is not in need of hospital treatment, vaccines, etc. There is always more that could be done to promote the health of the population, but that does not mean that absolutely no consideration should be given to any non-healthcare related endeavour. Besides, the potential negative consequences of this government’s decision not to fund the cervical cancer vaccine with public funds are being ridiculously overstated.

I agree with you to an extent but I was pointing out that the Greens aren't to be taken serious, not even as ecologists. If you're striving to prolong the lives of one of the main scourges on native wildlife you can't be taken serious as ecologist/conservationist. And to the best of my knowledge that's exactly the core of the Green ideology.
Anyone with an ounce of knowledge on conservation knows that there's only one solution for the likes of feral cats and it's not a dose of antibiotics, neutering and back to where they came from.

On the other hand I do agree with the Greens when they for example say massive investment in public transport is needed and that we should all consider and alter as much as possible our use of natural resources.
I do agree with them when they say that there's a serious democratic deficit in the structure and workings in the EU but that it's the best we have.

Where they loose credibility in my books is when they come up with one of their daft schemes that make you wonder who was licking the LSD lollies yesterday.

Raiser

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's the 'i find your arguments highly illogical' response.

Well in that case..... Have an yerself But it would have been interesting if you could have voiced a stance, opinion or valid argument.....

I'm just planning on touring the cancer wards in 10 years time with a hale and hearty Badger on a lead....... Hey Mrs. Boyle!!! Its a pine box for you and another JD n' Coke for John Gormless and his fcuking Bench Pressing Badger.

- I'm positive that the pro-green sentiment here is because normal, typical people on here ignore "Green Party" references in thread titles as they understandably think the content will only insult their intelligence.... While at the same time the typical Greens flock in by the eco-busload because insults to the intelligence are their Nirvana, breeding ground and reason to be.

Macha

Raiser wrote: »

Well in that case..... Have an yerself But it would have been interesting if you could have voiced a stance, opinion or valid argument.....

I'm just planning on touring the cancer wards in 10 years time with a hale and hearty Badger on a lead....... Hey Mrs. Boyle!!! Its a pine box for you and another JD n' Coke for John Gormless and his fcuking Bench Pressing Badger.

- I'm positive that the pro-green sentiment here is because normal, typical people on here ignore "Green Party" references in thread titles as they understandably think the content will only insult their intelligence.... While at the same time the typical Greens flock in by the eco-busload because insults to the intelligence are their Nirvana, breeding ground and reason to be.

And another insult-laden post lowers your credibility even further.

djpbarry

Raiser wrote: »

I'm positive that the pro-green sentiment here is because normal, typical people on here ignore "Green Party" references in thread titles as they understandably think the content will only insult their intelligence...

I think the wildly inaccurate (and not at all sensationalist) thread title may well have convinced a number of would-be contributors that the argument conveyed there-in is nonsense. Which it is.

But seeing as you mention ‘ignoring content’, have posts #2 – 46 registered with you yet? Any chance of acknowledging some of the arguments presented by other posters rather than repeating the same accusations over-and-over from your entrenched ‘the Greens have no principles’ position?

Raiser

taconnol wrote: »

And another insult-laden post lowers your credibility even further.

Insults??? Have you no idea what your friends have been up to? Aggravated assault and robbery on the elderly carries more decency, integrity and moral fibre than what the Greens are capable of doing to advance their 'cause' - Insults to the intelligence maybe....

Delegates also voted down a separate motion to reject the Government's legislation on the National Assets Management Agency, by two to one.

The two votes remove any doubt about the party staying in Government.

On the Programme for Government, 523 (84%) voted yes against 16% who voted no. The total poll was 624, with two spoiled votes.

- At this stage if Fianna Fail suggested a Nuclear Power Plant, situated on the Hill of Tara, run by the Taliban with a waste chute running through Gormley's back garden before dumping radioactive matter into Killary Harbour the Greens would pout pensively and then bargain for 5 extra Dublin Buses run on sesame oil and offer to host the incinerators in one of Dan Boyles Holiday homes.....

djpbarry wrote: »

I think the wildly inaccurate (and not at all sensationalist) thread title may well have convinced a number of would-be contributors that the argument conveyed there-in is nonsense. Which it is.

But seeing as you mention ‘ignoring content’, have posts #2 – 46 registered with you yet? Any chance of acknowledging some of the arguments presented by other posters rather than repeating the same accusations over-and-over from your entrenched ‘the Greens have no principles’ position?

To be fair I honestly do assume that the pro-Badger responses on this thread were all well-intentioned, accurate and grounded in fact.

I can assure you though that if I printed off posts no. 2-46 and brought them down to the overcrowded Hospital Corridors, into the Dole Offices, put them on the desk of the Business Owners who can't get Bank credit, into the 'School' where the wind whistles through the Prefabs, showed them to Joe Taxpayer who pays for the privilege to park in his work car park that I'd have a hard time explaining to them that The Green Party's principles are worthy of any respect, support or, God forbid, encouragement.

- Theres a world outside the isolation Chamber of the Green Cocoon & its happening without you.......

P.S. I voted for the Greens in the last Elections; I cannot relate the Election promises, family friendly policy or even clean, honest, decent political stance with what we have all been sickened by almost on a daily basis since those ill-gotten ballot slips were harvested by greedy little Green fingers.

Shame on you all - This is going to get a lot worse before ye get ejected and written up historically as an example of the 'power corrupts' concept and held up as an example for all.

djpbarry

Raiser wrote: »

I can assure you though that if I printed off posts no. 2-46 and brought them down to the overcrowded Hospital Corridors, into the Dole Offices, put them on the desk of the Business Owners who can't get Bank credit, into the 'School' where the wind whistles through the Prefabs, showed them to Joe Taxpayer who pays for the privilege to park in his work car park that I'd have a hard time explaining to them that The Green Party's principles are worthy of any respect, support or, God forbid, encouragement.

Have the Greens prioritised badger vaccinations above all else? I think you’ll find that they have not. You seem to be placing a tremendous amount of significance upon one small element of a ‘leaked’ document.

Raiser wrote: »

Shame on you all...

Eh, who you talking to?

peasant

Raiser wrote: »

- At this stage if Fianna Fail suggested a Nuclear Power Plant, situated on the Hill of Tara, run by the Taliban with a waste chute running through Gormley's back garden before dumping radioactive matter into Killary Harbour the Greens would pout pensively and then bargain for 5 extra Dublin Buses run on sesame oil and offer to host the incinerators in one of Dan Boyles Holiday homes.....

I think the Taliban bit is a bit OTT

dresden8

peasant wrote: »

I think the Taliban bit is a bit OTT

Hardly.

I remember when the greens used to be against them coming to Shannon in a box, handcuffed and blindfolded.

Oh, innocent days.

Raiser

djpbarry wrote: »

Eh, who you talking to?

I'm talking to anyone who is putting stupid Green concepts, self-interested Neo corrupt pocket filling and cynical Blair-ite spin Politics before the needs, aspirations and entitlements of the poor Citizens who are being forced to fill their deep Green pockets......

- Think of the shame you are bringing on your poor loved ones

Mr.Micro

Delegates also voted down a separate motion to reject the Government's legislation on the National Assets Management Agency, by two to one.

NAMA has to be put into being without it FF will have no funding for the future from its developer supporters so these boys have to be bailed out.

We have had the Anglo debacle and the other banks, FAS, JOD, etc not a jot of bother to the Greens,so there is nothing that will stop the Greens now from getting their fill of power. The sum is they are no better that FF, probably worse because they got into office the voters thinking that they were pure and clean.

nice_guy80

I really do hate those D4 Greenie types. think they know it all

what would someone from a city know about animal welfare?

HerbSimpson

I really hate the greens and I also hate the way Scofflaw writes "Cordially Scofflaw" at the end of all his stupid smug posts :rolleyes:

djpbarry

Raiser wrote: »

I'm talking to anyone who is putting stupid Green concepts, self-interested Neo corrupt pocket filling and cynical Blair-ite spin Politics before the needs, aspirations and entitlements of the poor Citizens who are being forced to fill their deep Green pockets...

Ok, I think I’m done with this thread. I do hope that at some point in the not-too-distant future you’ll be done ranting and might feel like having a rational discussion.

bmaxi

HerbSimpson wrote: »

I really hate the greens and I also hate the way Scofflaw writes "Cordially Scofflaw" at the end of all his stupid smug posts :rolleyes:

So, as well as being stupid and smug you want him to be rude as well?

sceptre

If we could veer back on track and attempt to keep the standard of discourse up, not down...?

And stop getting personal. That's just plain rude.

Grudaire

nice_guy80 wrote: »

what would someone from a city know about animal welfare?

This is why discussing things with people from the country can get troublesome...