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October 2nd 2009 - Demoracy in Ireland R.I.P.

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24567…12

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    #32
    OldJay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 943 ✭✭✭OldJay


    triple-M wrote: »
    I for one will be welcoming our new turkish overlords ,while im on a jet flying out of this place

    Travel broadens the mind so enjoy your enlightenment if it ever happens.


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    #33
    Fuhrer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,661 ✭✭✭Fuhrer


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Hail Ganley! Mein Führer!!!

    :rolleyes:


    That Ganley scares even me


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    #34
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,185 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    triple-M wrote: »
    I for one will be welcoming our new turkish overlords ,while im on a jet flying out of this place

    Mmmmm are Turkey in the EU?? eh no.
    Could Turkey join under the current Nice Treaty?? eh yes.

    Goodbye.


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    #35
    Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    I'll bet anyone a million euro and one of my legs that nothing bad happens as a result.


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    #36
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,472 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    triple-M wrote: »
    I for one will be welcoming our new turkish overlords ,while im on a jet flying out of this place

    Ah, I see you fell for the No side last minute lies - they did the same with the conscription issue last year . . . leave it to the last few days and then circulate a totally baseless rumour.

    Thank goodness the Yes side didnt let them go unchecked this time round.:)


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    #37
    youtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭youtheman


    I love these second referenda. We let the fruitcakes win the first one, they get their day in the sun and then we pull the rug out from under them the second time round (bit like Kerry v Cork in the All Ireland).


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    #38
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The majority of Ireland voted for the Treaty, ergo democracy is dead. Quite the conclusion you have reached.

    Which begs the obvious question why wasnt the no vote respected in the same way?

    Maybe we should go best of three. This is all we're short of doing


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    #39
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    youtheman wrote: »
    I love these second referenda. We let the fruitcakes win the first one, they get their day in the sun and then we pull the rug out from under them the second time round (bit like Kerry v Cork in the All Ireland).

    This is exactly the attitude which forced the second referendum on us.

    The attitude that gets people to overturn a vote that doesnt suit Fianna Fail run governments


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    #40
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Ah, I see you fell for the No side last minute lies - they did the same with the conscription issue last year . . . leave it to the last few days and then circulate a totally baseless rumour.

    Thank goodness the Yes side didnt let them go unchecked this time round.:)

    The yes side would never do such a thing.

    We'll be back to full employment anytime soon now that the sheep have voted yes.


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    #41
    johnny_ultimate
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,298 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    I think the whole 'death of democracy' and 'death of the Irish Republic' claims were the most frustrating of the campaign, and both sides had some frustrating arguments. The 'no' vote last time was a crystal clear case study in democracy at work. And rather than force the treaty through government like they did in other countries, some of the controversial issues last time were addressed and we got the reassurances people wanted. And now the public has (supposedly) decided they are happy with that, and there has been a (very) significant change in public opinion.

    I think both Lisbon Treaties have been fascinating examples of democracy in action. There has been a lot of lies, BS and scaremongering over the last two years from both sides, but ultimately it is the general public who have decided the final answer. If that isn't democracy, I don't know what people expect. Ireland is still here, and our voice has been heard.


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    #42
    Steviemak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭Steviemak


    Max Power1 wrote: »
    Lets see when these jobs and the economic recovery we were promised will materialize.

    Now that the No's have lost i'm looking forward to abortion, euthanasia, tanks on O'Connell st, corporate tax at 50%, no more elections in ireland ever, being conscripted, the death penalty being re-introduced, public schools and hospitals being shut and all while working for 1.84 euro an hour but I'm not looking forward to Brian Cowen keeping his job:D


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    #43
    panda100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    Op has a fair point,surely the most democratic thing is to have a third referendum since it is only a 1-1 draw at the moment?


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    #44
    Ritchi
    Registered Users Posts: 319 ✭✭Ritchi


    orourkeda wrote: »
    Which begs the obvious question why wasnt the no vote respected in the same way?

    Maybe we should go best of three. This is all we're short of doing


    As far as I can see, it was respected, and assurances got to reflect the reasons people gave for voting no the last time. Without us voting no the first time we would not have these assurances(whether they were actually needed, or how legally binding they are, remains to be seen).
    This just shows that the assurances were enough to change peoples mind this time around.


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    #45
    Steviemak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭Steviemak


    orourkeda wrote: »
    Maybe we should go best of three.

    Let the people vote in an anti EU government and you can have your referendum. That's democracy.


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    #46
    marbar
    Registered Users Posts: 390 ✭✭marbar


    i'm happy as a pig in ****e that common sense has prevailed

    down with the crazies


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    #47
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,472 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    panda100 wrote: »
    Op has a fair point,surely the most democratic thing is to have a third referendum since it is only a 1-1 draw at the moment?

    Where is the need? The Irish voted no first time around, we secured key concessions and the yes vote highlights that the Irish people are happy with these concessions.


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    #48
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Dublin1600 wrote: »
    Ireland was forced to vote on the EXACT same treaty until a YES vote was returned, the treaty we voted on was the same treaty word for word. Demoracy in Ireland R.I.P.

    So you'll be out protesting at the death of democracy next time abortion comes up? No means no, right?

    FYI real democracies don't take a vote every time the Taoiseach needs to go toileh'. They vote for people to make decisions for them, for the same reason I don't do plumbing or write my own legal documents.


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    #49
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    panda100 wrote: »
    Op has a fair point,surely the most democratic thing is to have a third referendum since it is only a 1-1 draw at the moment?

    Its not actually. If you add Lisbon 1 and Lisbon 2 together you still get Yes.


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    #50
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    panda100 wrote: »
    Op has a fair point,surely the most democratic thing is to have a third referendum since it is only a 1-1 draw at the moment?

    .......how original....would swear I heard Joe Higgins say that earlier. SF Crowe tried the same. The first time it gets a wry chuckle. The third time it doesn't.


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    #51
    KevinH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭KevinH


    Isn't it funny that the communists/socialists are making this argument.

    At least they are consistent.

    If the communist party was ever elected it would suspend all future elections because allowing people the chance to change their mind is "undemocratic".

    :D


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    #52
    smokingman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭smokingman


    marbar wrote: »
    i'm happy as a pig in ****e that common sense has prevailed

    down with the crazies

    With you there!
    I've actually had a nervous nights sleep and woke up this morning to read the YES side was winning - danced a little jig so I did! :)
    Thank you Ireland! Thank you for not being insular and gullible!


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    #53
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    turgon wrote: »
    Its not actually. If you add Lisbon 1 and Lisbon 2 together you still get Yes.
    so some people's vote gets counted twice then

    thats the yes side for you


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    #54
    Robbo
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    For a third referendum, it's quite simple. All you need is a government made up of Sinn Fein, Coir, Libertas, the Judean People's Socialist Party and a couple of other orbiting wingnuts like Jim Corr and Patricia McKenna. They can push for a referendum in the Dail and we'll have another.

    I would pay good money to see a cabinet like that. I imagine it would be like an ultra Catholic Taliban, where workers collectives farming potatoes with AK47s pointed at them.


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    #55
    Robbo
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    turgon wrote: »
    Its not actually. If you add Lisbon 1 and Lisbon 2 together you still get Yes.
    Since it's a European tie, can we bring away goals in as well as aggregate scores?


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    #56
    marbar
    Registered Users Posts: 390 ✭✭marbar


    smokingman wrote: »
    With you there!
    I've actually had a nervous nights sleep and woke up this morning to read the YES side was winning - danced a little jig so I did! :)
    Thank you Ireland! Thank you for not being insular and gullible!

    exactly the same. it's the first thing i did this morning

    the first set of interviews i saw with voters from the no side yesterday. serious cringe city


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    #57
    marbar
    Registered Users Posts: 390 ✭✭marbar


    Robbo wrote: »
    For a third referendum, it's quite simple. All you need is a government made up of Sinn Fein, Coir, Libertas, the Judean People's Socialist Party and a couple of other orbiting wingnuts like Jim Corr and Patricia McKenna. They can push for a referendum in the Dail and we'll have another.

    I would pay good money to see a cabinet like that. I imagine it would be like an ultra Catholic Taliban, where workers collectives farming potatoes with AK47s pointed at them.
    :D:D


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    #58
    Neamhshuntasach
    Registered Users Posts: 2,168 ✭✭✭Neamhshuntasach


    So if a poll is conducted after this referendum and it is found out that people voted yes because they thought it was gonna bring Ireland out of the recession or that we were going to get kicked out of Europe and thrown into the dark ages. Is that not fair grounds for another referendum? That is the exact same scenario as the last time. The yes vote that looks likely to win has nothing to do with common sense or an increase in people reading and understanding the treaty. It is just the fear of our economy plunging further or staying the way it is. The Government got very lucky that this recession happened to occur and also show signs of recovery when it did.

    I had never met yes voters in person till last night when i was out and the reasons where such as the above. 'Ah sure we're fúcked if we don't vote yes'.


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    #59
    marbar
    Registered Users Posts: 390 ✭✭marbar


    Neamhshuntasach wrote: »
    So if a poll is conducted after this referendum and it is found out that people voted yes because they thought it was gonna bring Ireland out of the recession or that we were going to get kicked out of Europe and thrown into the dark ages. Is that not fair grounds for another referendum? That is the exact same scenario as the last time. The yes vote that looks likely to win has nothing to do with common sense or an increase in people reading and understanding the treaty. It is just the fear of our economy plunging further or staying the way it is. The Government got very lucky that this recession happened to occur and also show signs of recovery when it did.

    I had never met yes voters in person till last night when i was out and the reasons where such as the above. 'Ah sure we're fúcked if we don't vote yes'.

    that's a matter of opinion. different to people simply not knowing what they are voting on


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    #60
    Robbo
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    Neamhshuntasach wrote: »
    So if a poll is conducted after this referendum and it is found out that people voted yes because they thought it was gonna bring Ireland out of the recession or that we were going to get kicked out of Europe and thrown into the dark ages. Is that not fair grounds for another referendum? That is the exact same scenario as the last time. The yes vote that looks likely to win has nothing to do with common sense or an increase in people reading and understanding the treaty. It is just the fear of our economy plunging further or staying the way it is. The Government got very lucky that this recession happened to occur and also show signs of recovery when it did.

    I had never met yes voters in person till last night when i was out and the reasons where such as the above. 'Ah sure we're fúcked if we don't vote yes'.
    By all means, go ahead and commission such a poll. I'd love to hear the results.


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    #61
    Neamhshuntasach
    Registered Users Posts: 2,168 ✭✭✭Neamhshuntasach


    marbar wrote: »
    that's a matter of opinion. different to people simply not knowing what they are voting on

    Yes it is a matter of opinion just as the last time around it was a matter of opinion until the much quoted poll by yes voters became fact. I actually do not care what the outcome is as i won't be in Europe to experience anything. I'm just observing and applying the same circumstances to the last referendum.


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