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October 2nd 2009 - Demoracy in Ireland R.I.P.

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    #332
    eamo127
    Closed Accounts Posts: 70 ✭✭eamo127


    bauderline wrote: »
    I'll say this using small words and visual aids...

    1. I was not forced to do anything.
    2. I was given another opportunity to vote on the Lisbon treaty.
    3. It was my choice whether to vote or not.
    4. It was my choice whether I voted YES or NO.

    So lets say this one more time...

    NO ONE WAS FORCED TO DO ANYTHING !!!!

    okay ?

    So you've no problem with us continuing to vote untill the yes decision is reversed? After all, you won't be forced to do anything - you'll just be presented with the same document untill you give the correct result. Democracy my arse!


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    #333
    eamo127
    Closed Accounts Posts: 70 ✭✭eamo127


    Justind wrote: »
    Crying foul should be aimed at the disgraceful emotional blackmailing on the electorate by the 'No' side last time around based on WHOPPING GREAT LIES concerning abortion, euthanasia, conscription, taxation, militarisation etc etc.

    This time around the voting public has seen through the lies as decreed by the legal guarantees to the country and voted accordingly.
    That is democracy.


    Lies form the NO side? The yes side were wailing continuously that we would be economically ruined if we didn't vote yes. Some neck indeed. I look forward to the jobs we were promised as well as the first challenge by a foreigner to our abortion laws in the our now all powerful eu court. Remember, eu law supersedes Irish law so we won't have a say in the matter.


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    #334
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    well we now have at least one example for tonyeh's who belived that abortion was being brought in by lisbon thread.


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    #335
    RiverWilde
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭RiverWilde


    eamo127 wrote: »
    Lies form the NO side? The yes side were wailing continuously that we would be economically ruined if we didn't vote yes. Some neck indeed. I look forward to the jobs we were promised as well as the first challenge by a foreigner to our abortion laws in the our now all powerful eu court. Remember, eu law supersedes Irish law so we won't have a say in the matter.

    I hate to break it to you but EC law has ALWAYS superceded national law on matters concerning EC law. That was decided back in the 50's back before we even joined what was then the EEC. We knew what we were getting into when we signed up.

    The guarantees provided by EC law have helped Irish citizens not hindered them. The only people who have a problem with EC law are those vested interests in this country who have had it their way for too long.

    Oh and regarding the likes of abortion ... the ECJ also said it would respect national constitutions when deliberating ... so the chances of Europe overriding our law on that matter are very slim indeed.

    Riv


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    #336
    rumour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 836 ✭✭✭rumour


    eamo127 wrote: »
    Lies form the NO side? The yes side were wailing continuously that we would be economically ruined if we didn't vote yes. Some neck indeed. I look forward to the jobs we were promised as well as the first challenge by a foreigner to our abortion laws in the our now all powerful eu court. Remember, eu law supersedes Irish law so we won't have a say in the matter.

    Its time to put the whole shameful episode to bed. I was and am concerned about the democratic deficit in the operation of the European administration. This was drowned out by a debate on abortion, neutrality and rafts of other crack pot ideas that are absolutely nothing to do with the running of Europe. Even the issues that we have guarantees on are meaningless in the grand scheme of things. If in future Ireland changes it mind will we not be allowed do so because of these guarantees. An obvious preposterous outcome. To claim we changed our minds on these issues makes us appear rather un-intellectual as a nation.

    The YES side claim a victory but this to is shameful and demonstrates completely and utterly how they sat on their fat arses the last time. That they get the opportunity to fix their ineptitude maybe good for ireland but it does not say much internationally about the character of those ruling Ireland. I remember specifically now the comments of the German ambassador here two/three years ago. He was utterly spot on.

    The Lisbon solution to the constitution of Europe is still in my opinion not something that will ultimately unite Europe. I think it is a problem that will resurface in time. However one of the things I will have garnered from this whole episode (I do believe in a United Europe obviously not the same construct as the majority of Ireland) is that reason can go out the window when fear is introduced.


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    #337
    imokyrok
    Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭imokyrok


    If in future Ireland changes it mind will we not be allowed do so because of these guarantees. An obvious preposterous outcome. To claim we changed our minds on these issues makes us appear rather un-intellectual as a nation.

    Why would the guarantee to self determination on the matter of abortion mean we can't change our minds on that issue?


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    #338
    OldJay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 943 ✭✭✭OldJay


    eamo127 wrote: »
    Lies form the NO side?
    Yes.
    Huge baseless deceptive sanctimonious stinkers everywhere.


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    #339
    Wheely
    Closed Accounts Posts: 400 ✭✭Wheely


    Dublin1600 wrote: »
    Ireland was forced to vote on the EXACT same treaty until a YES vote was returned, the treaty we voted on was the same treaty word for word. Demoracy in Ireland R.I.P.

    It's depressing to see how many posters here thought that post was worthy of a thanks. EU Council decisions changed the consequences of a Yes vote in Ireland so while it was the same treaty it wasn't the same vote per se. Also using inflammatory phrases that have no meaning like "Democracy RIP"? Lame


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    #340
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Think of the continuing discussions as therapy for the disappointed advocates of voting no.

    We're also operating a sort of grace period of toleration for this valuable therapeutic exercise. I would hate it to be said that we didn't do our part to try to heal the rifts in Irish public life that Lisbon fostered.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


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    #341
    rumour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 836 ✭✭✭rumour


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    We're also operating a sort of grace period of toleration for this valuable therapeutic exercise. I would hate it to be said that we didn't do our part to try to heal the rifts in Irish public life that Lisbon fostered.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw

    Curious when does your 'grace' run out?
    Have I something to worry about by disagreeing?


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    #342
    eamo127
    Closed Accounts Posts: 70 ✭✭eamo127


    Easy to 'Heal Rifts' after you run roughshot over the democratic process. Easy to be gracious in victory - pitty you were not so gracious in defeat.


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    #343
    eamo127
    Closed Accounts Posts: 70 ✭✭eamo127


    RiverWilde wrote: »

    Oh and regarding the likes of abortion ... the ECJ also said it would respect national constitutions when deliberating ... so the chances of Europe overriding our law on that matter are very slim indeed.

    Riv

    Slim?? - what about the 'bullet proof' guarantees we were promised? "I have here a piece of paper signed by bureaucrats in Brussels ...".


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    #344
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    eamo127 wrote: »
    Slim?? - what about the 'bullet proof' guarantees we were promised? "I have here a piece of paper signed by bureaucrats in Brussels ...".

    We got them.

    Every international agreement ever made has ultimately 'meerly' been a signed piece of paper.


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    #345
    RiverWilde
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭RiverWilde


    eamo127 wrote: »
    Slim?? - what about the 'bullet proof' guarantees we were promised? "I have here a piece of paper signed by bureaucrats in Brussels ...".

    Well as it stands an individual may travel to another member state for an abortion if that is their wish. Freedom to travel for medical reasons is guaranteed under EC law. It's perverse that the same medical procedures cannot be obtained in Ireland.

    To my mind the law should be changed. That said I doubt it will. Unless the Irish govt. legislates and introduces an Abortion Act. The govt. would probably have to hold a referendum on the matter and no politician in Ireland will touch that issue (unless they want to end their political careers). There will not be abortion in Ireland. Europe will not 'impose' abortion on Ireland as this would make the constitutional problem of Lisbon look like a tea party.

    Riv


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    #346
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,297 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    It'd be funny if it was found that the same amount of people voted "no", but more people voted yes this time around, and thus making the "yes" vote come from a higher quota of people in Ireland.


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    #347
    d'Oracle
    Registered Users Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭d'Oracle


    the_syco wrote: »
    It'd be funny if it was found that the same amount of people voted "no", but more people voted yes this time around, and thus making the "yes" vote come from a higher quota of people in Ireland.

    Is it not the case that, over the two elections, on aggregate there were more Yes votes than No?


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    #348
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    RiverWilde wrote: »
    To my mind the law should be changed. That said I doubt it will. Unless the Irish govt. legislates and introduces an Abortion Act. The govt. would probably have to hold a referendum on the matter and no politician in Ireland will touch that issue (unless they want to end their political careers). There will not be abortion in Ireland.
    I'm not so sure. A referendum on the issue is far easier than Lisbon. Most people have already made up their mind on the issue of abortion - most of the time it's a "yes" or a "no" and the rest of the time it's usually, "Yes, depending on how it's implemented".
    It's a much simpler issue - a single topic - so those with agendas are unable to add unrelated issues to it.
    All a government really has to do is carry out opinion polls now and again on the various swing topics (divorce, abortion, neutrality) and when approval hits a good solid % (say 70), then you know you're in a good position to run the referendum *and* keep your job.

    Abortion specifically may be a long time coming, if at all. The current wording gives a long-time buffer where we can conveniently ignore that Irish women are free to procure abortions. There's no way the "right to life of the unborn" article will be removed in the next 50 years, though it's plausible that the article may be amended to give the mother's life more rights than the unborn child's. All it will take is one suicide of a raped teenage girl who was unable to travel due to fiscal or familial restrictions to spark off the whole debate and lead to a proposal to give the living more rights than the unborn.


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