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The most respected nation in the EU

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    #182
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    I see the difference between someone's opinion and legitimate polls. At least I assume they are legitimate, I don't know the agencies that ran them. Meanwhile, as those with their toes very much in the political waters are aware, most voters have other things on their minds.

    Doesn't change the poll results however.

    If we take these poll results at face value then they should be reflected in the elections results, but they're not. So what conclusion do we draw?


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    #183
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    No, I think alot of people are voting yes because they think we'll get kicked out of the EU or the recession will get worse if we vote no.

    Do you think your statement is what most of the yes voters understand as their reason for a yes vote?
    It's not like those reasons aren't printed on just about every neutral and pro-treaty website fwiw. Unlike, oh, say the "fact" that if we vote Yes they'll wheel in abortion and all the wife swapping sodomites will rejoice in their new found method of contraception.

    I've yet to hear one Yes voter say they are doing it for, or have already voted because they believe the recession will get worse.


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    #184
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    meglome wrote: »
    If we take these poll results at face value then they should be reflected in the elections results, but they're not. So what conclusion do we draw?
    That political parties ran on more issues than Lisbon?

    Come on.


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    #185
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    No, I think alot of people are voting yes because they think we'll get kicked out of the EU or the recession will get worse if we vote no.

    Do you think your statement is what most of the yes voters understand as their reason for a yes vote?

    Voting Yes because the EU has been good to Ireland is as valid as voting no because you think our democracy is being eroded. I don't think any Yes campaigner is saying people always vote for the best reasons or even for the right reasons. I've read several pages from some No campaigners and I still didn't know why they were voting No.


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    #186
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    I see the difference between someone's opinion and legitimate polls. At least I assume they are legitimate, I don't know the agencies that ran them. Meanwhile, as those with their toes very much in the political waters are aware, most voters have other things on their minds.

    Doesn't change the poll results however.

    THE legitimate poll is an ELECTION - you know when ALL the people are polled for their views and they all get to choose.

    The idea you are essentially arguing is - to draw an analogy - the majority of the electorate are all in favour of Communism but they all vote for "Privatise everthing" Free Marketers because they don't see that voting for the Free Marketers will result in Free Market policies and have the idea the Free Market party will implement Communist policies if elected.


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    #187
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    That political parties ran on more issues than Lisbon?

    Come on.

    I'm not saying otherwise. If the referendum on Lisbon was actually a big deal we'd see a reflection of that, but there's hardly a peep about it.


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    #188
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    View wrote: »
    THE legitimate poll is an ELECTION - you know when ALL the people are polled for their views and they all get to choose.
    Ye haven't a leg to stand on here lads, sorry.

    If the parties in Germany and France ran for election solely on Lisbon as an issue, or even the main issue, you might have a point. But they didn't, so you don't.


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    #189
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    meglome wrote: »
    I've read several pages from some No campaigners and I still didn't know why they were voting No.

    I dont think alot of people know exactly why they are voting either way.

    after lisbon 1 a poll was down afterwards that showed most people didnt understand it and thats offically why we are having the 2nd vote.

    If that same poll is done again after the results from todays voting (even if its a majority yes vote) and has the same result ie people dont understand the Lisbon Treaty, do we have a Lisbon part III?


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    #190
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Ye haven't a leg to stand on here lads, sorry.

    If the parties in Germany and France ran for election solely on Lisbon as an issue, or even the main issue, you might have a point. But they didn't, so you don't.

    Hang on now, I've been told by numerous No voters that these referendums are a big deal. But the election results in France and Germany don't show it. So do we conclude they are not in reality a big deal?


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    #191
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    If that same poll is done again after the results from todays voting (even if its a majority yes vote) and has the same result ie people dont understand the Lisbon Treaty, do we have a Lisbon part III?

    Well there's nothing legally stopping that happening. Although given that almost the entire political establishment is for the treaty I'd imagine it's not going to happen. Still nothing stopping people voting in Sinn Fein and getting them to have a referendum to reverse the decision.


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    #192
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    meglome wrote: »
    Hang on now, I've been told by numerous No voters that these referendums are a big deal. But the election results in France and Germany don't show it. So do we conclude they are not in reality a big deal?
    Short of repeating myself, theres not much to say to this.


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    #193
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,874 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Short of repeating myself, theres not much to say to this.

    Translation: Im full of shít


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    #194
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Short of repeating myself, theres not much to say to this.

    There are many active participants here who do little other than repeat themselves. Why deny yourself the pleasure?


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    #195
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Ye haven't a leg to stand on here lads, sorry.

    If the parties in Germany and France ran for election solely on Lisbon as an issue, or even the main issue, you might have a point. But they didn't, so you don't.

    Germany and France are democracies. There was nothing stopping the "outraged" people of Germany and France organising parties that were pro-referenda and/or anti-Lisbon and/or anti-EU as the case may be. These could have made Lisbon and referenda on it the main part of their campaigns. With such "outrage" out there in the electorate of those states, these parties could have been fairly succesful, maybe even hugely succesful.

    Yet they didn't bother, did they? And the French electorate certainly didn't back Libertas as a surrogate for those parties, did they? (The Germans if you remember didn't even sign their petition to stand in the election)

    Ergo, this is a total non-issue to the electorate of France, Germany etc. etc.


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    #196
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    View wrote: »
    Ergo, this is a total non-issue to the electorate of France, Germany etc. etc.
    I didn't say they were outraged, but to say that the majority of them approve of the treaty is clearly not accurate, based on those polls. At best they say they would like to have been asked. If it was a non issue they would have just said it was a non issue, which I think was an option in the French one, since its short 8% of the full hundred.


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    #197
    CCCP^
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭CCCP^


    Jus to correct earlier, I posted last night that more people voted No overall to the Constitutional Treaty/Lisbon Treaty than voted Yes, that's wrong. Due to the overwhelmingly victory in Spain, it's the Yes.

    27,413,533 said Yes
    23,531,009 said No

    Here is the breakdown:

    Netherlands
    2,940,730 or 38.5% said Yes
    4,705,685 or 61.5% said No

    France
    12,806,394 or 45.32% said Yes
    15,450,279 or 54.68% said No

    Spain
    10,804,464 or 76.73& said Yes
    2,428,409 or 17.24% said No

    Luxembourg
    109,494 or 56.52% said Yes
    84,221 or 43.48% said No

    Ireland
    752,451 or 46.60% said Yes
    862,415 or 53.40% said No

    Spain had the worst voter turnout of all the countries involved, but hey, a win is a win!


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    #198
    USE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭USE


    CCCP^ wrote: »
    Jus to correct earlier, I posted last night that more people voted No overall to the Constitutional Treaty/Lisbon Treaty than voted Yes, that's wrong. Due to the overwhelmingly victory in Spain, it's the Yes.
    EU Constitution and the Treaty of Lisbon is not the same. Not only by their content, but also by the way they would work and the type of the document is also a big difference (such a big difference that it is even reflected in the national law: in one case you need a referendum and in another you don't). Get over it. Such comparison is not adequate.


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    #199
    CCCP^
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭CCCP^


    USE wrote: »
    EU Constitution and the Treaty of Lisbon is not the same. Not only by their content, but also by the way they would work and the type of the document is also a big difference (such a big difference that it is even reflected in the national law: in one case you need a referendum and in another you don't). Get over it. Such comparison is not adequate.

    Jens-Peter Bonde once said that he would give a fine bottle of wine to anyone who could come up with a real example of a limitation which the Lisbon Treaty puts on the scope of the Constitution.

    Can you give just one good example of a law that could be adopted under the Constitution but not under the Treaty of Lisbon? I would be interested to hear it.


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    #200
    USE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭USE


    CCCP^ wrote: »
    Jens-Peter Bonde once said that he would give a fine bottle of wine to anyone who could come up with a real example of a limitation which the Lisbon Treaty puts on the scope of the Constitution.

    Can you give just one good example of a law that could be adopted under the Constitution but not under the Treaty of Lisbon? I would be interested to hear it.
    Why to limit the criteria of "difference" to such definition? Treaty of Lisbon eliminates all state-like terminology and symbols. That is a difference. Also how do you think, does the status of a document of constitution make a difference or not?

    Giving a question "what law couldn't be passed under the treaty of Nice that will be possible to pass under the Treaty of Lisbon" or any other suchlike question is not adequate, because the Treaty of Lisbon does not aim to expand the scope of laws possible or not possible to pass, but to improve the way EU works.

    The difference between the original Constitution and the present Lisbon Treaty is one of approach, rather than content (even if I have given an example of the difference in content too).


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    #201
    Hydrosylator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 275 ✭✭Hydrosylator


    Rb wrote: »
    There will be no positive consequences to a No result, I don't see how people can claim otherwise.
    Well duh, the whole point of voting No is that the ratification would have negative consequences.

    A no vote doesn't change anything, QED.


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    #202
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Hydrosylator wrote: »
    A no vote doesn't change anything, QED.

    Yes it does, but that has been explained before over and over, and over, and over and over and over ... .... ... ....


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    #203
    truthisfree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭truthisfree


    Hydrosylator wrote: »
    Well duh, the whole point of voting No is that the ratification would have negative consequences.

    A no vote doesn't change anything, QED.

    It is not past a whole lot of other hurdles yet as much as the Yes people would have us believe, mind you they never looked that far into it, did they? No surprise there at all from the people in power! Bow to Cowen, Bow to corruption, Bow to your own insidiousness! But above all, BENDOVER :pac:


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    #204
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    truthisfree wrote: »
    It is not past a whole lot of other hurdles yet as much as the Yes people would have us believe, mind you they never looked that far into it, did they? No surprise there at all from the people in power! Bow to Cowen, Bow to corruption, Bow to your own insidiousness! But above all, BENDOVER :pac:

    What the hell does Cowan being a tosser have to do with an EU treaty?

    I really fúcking fear for this country's future.


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    #205
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    meglome wrote: »
    What the hell does Cowan being a tosser have to do with an EU treaty?

    I really fúcking fear for this country's future.
    And then they claim arrogance when we say that No voters did so out of ignorance, anti-establishment sentiment etc.


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    #206
    CCCP^
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭CCCP^


    USE wrote: »
    Why to limit the criteria of "difference" to such definition? Treaty of Lisbon eliminates all state-like terminology and symbols. That is a difference. Also how do you think, does the status of a document of constitution make a difference or not?

    That is a purely cosmetic difference. The soul of the Constitutional Treaty/Lisbon is the same. To quote Valery Giscard d'Estaing "the Treaty of Lisbon is the same as the rejected Constitution. Only the format has been changed to avoid referendums."


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    #207
    imeddyhobbs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭imeddyhobbs


    Rb wrote: »
    Perhaps, instead of coming here to ask people to vote no, you read through the numerous threads addressing the issue of a second vote and see how the whole argument has been entirely debunked?

    debunked,Enlighten me please.....


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    #208
    Steviemak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭Steviemak


    imeddyhobbs wrote: »
    The most respected nation in the EU,thats what Ireland will be if a no vote is the outcome of Lisbon 2

    If we vote yes then we will be known as a nation that has no backbone ,We voted no already,Lets do that again or let them keep walking all over us.

    What rubbish! Ireland votes for Ireland and no one else. Grow up.


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    #209
    PaulieD
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 932 ✭✭✭PaulieD


    meglome wrote: »
    What the hell does Cowan being a tosser have to do with an EU treaty?

    I really fúcking fear for this country's future.

    As do I, meglome, as do I. We are stuck with Cowen and co until the summer of 2012. Next December we will get hit with a devastating budget and NAMA will pass. As for Yes for jobs and recovery, that will go down as one of the biggest lies ever uttered during a european referendum. It will be up there with the lies over Nice, "Nice will not mean mass immigration from eastern europe." The Yes voters who swarmed these boards 24/7 over the last few weeks will be nowhere to be seen, of course.


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    #210
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    CCCP^ wrote: »
    That is a purely cosmetic difference. The soul of the Constitutional Treaty/Lisbon is the same. To quote Valery Giscard d'Estaing "the Treaty of Lisbon is the same as the rejected Constitution. Only the format has been changed to avoid referendums."

    That's not even a recognisable parody of the man - it's a conflation of a couple of different quote-mines from the little eurosceptics book of handy out of context quotes. Possibly people's copies are so heavily worn at this stage that one page is showing through the other?

    regards,
    Scofflaw


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    #211
    CCCP^
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭CCCP^


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    That's not even a recognisable parody of the man - it's a conflation of a couple of different quote-mines from the little eurosceptics book of handy out of context quotes. Possibly people's copies are so heavily worn at this stage that one page is showing through the other?

    regards,
    Scofflaw

    Sorry Scofflaw, care to point me in the right direction with the original quote?


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