The most respected nation in the EU

imeddyhobbs

The most respected nation in the EU,thats what Ireland will be if a no vote is the outcome of Lisbon 2

If we vote yes then we will be known as a nation that has no backbone ,We voted no already,Lets do that again or let them keep walking all over us.

ei.sdraob

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

The most respected nation in the EU,thats what Ireland will be if a no vote is the outcome of Lisbon 2

If we vote yes then we will be known as a nation that has no backbone ,We voted no already,Lets do that again or let them keep walking all over us.

do you have anything to back your opinion with

?

imeddyhobbs

ei.sdraob wrote: »

do you have anything to back your opinion with

?

Nobody likes a turncoat

AtomicHorror

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Nobody likes a turncoat

Except presumably the side to which the turncoat turns... which in this case would be the EU. So, what was your point?

Rb

If we vote No, we'll be the laughing stock of the EU when we're asked what it was in the treaty we didn't like, and we have nothing to say.

Mrmoe

I think Ireland will gain a lot of credit and good will if we vote No. Something like this is always difficult to provide evidence for as there are too many intangibles. I haven't come across any negative response from other Europeans post the last referendum and if anything it has been positive, mostly thanking people for voting No.

My name is URL

ei.sdraob wrote: »

do you have anything to back your opinion with

?

It's an opinion.

Can you say you haven't expressed any all this time? :rolleyes:

And IMO he's right. The EU are going to pass this regardless, as has been said

and the Czechs are next in line to block it

Stop climbing up on your invisible horse only when it suits you

either accept that people have opinions of their own or stop conveying yours

imeddyhobbs

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Except presumably the side to which the turncoat turns... which in this case would be the EU. So, what was your point?

Do you really need me to spell my point out?are you sure about your question?

ei.sdraob

My name is URL wrote: »

It's an opinion.

Can you say you haven't expressed any all this time? :rolleyes:

And IMO he's right. The EU are going to pass this regardless, as has been said

and the Czechs are next in line to block it

Stop climbing up on your invisible horse only when it suits you

either accept that people have opinions of their own or stop conveying yours

I have opinions

but if you read my posts you would see most of them are referenced and linked

/

Sir Oxman

ei.sdraob wrote: »

do you have anything to back your opinion with

?

June 2008.

Rb

There will be no positive consequences to a No result, I don't see how people can claim otherwise.

imeddyhobbs

gambiaman wrote: »

June 2008.

The check is in the post gambiaman

My name is URL

Rb wrote: »

There will be no positive consequences to a No result, I don't see how people can claim otherwise.

And which negative consequences can you claim we'll incur?

Relativism, it only works when both sides have the same scope

meglome

Mrmoe wrote: »

I think Ireland will gain a lot of credit and good will if we vote No. Something like this is always difficult to provide evidence for as there are too many intangibles. I haven't come across any negative response from other Europeans post the last referendum and if anything it has been positive, mostly thanking people for voting No.

he he he he. How can we gain credit when the EU ask us what we didn't like and we have nothing to tell them. We'll look like tools. Are some people that stupid they think we can go back to the EU to ask for a better deal when there are no real issues to get a better deal on. I really fear for this country, we repeatedly elect the likes Fianna Fail and can't seem to tell the difference between our own fantasy opinion and what's in a finely detailed legal document.

Sam Vimes

Rb wrote: »

If we vote No, we'll be the laughing stock of the EU when we're asked what it was in the treaty we didn't like, and we have nothing to say.

Oh we'll have lots to say, that's the problem. We'll keep repeating nonsense lie after nonsense lie until the Irish people are considered to be on a par with creationists, 9/11 truthers and alien abductees

Sam Vimes

I love how some of the same people who demand a treaty article as proof any time someone suggests that a yes vote will create confidence and help the economy are now saying that a no vote will get us respect. Which article says that eh?

AtomicHorror

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Do you really need me to spell my point out?are you sure about your question?

I get your point. It's wrong. I think they were pretty baffled about why we voted no the first time, since our cited reasons were a mixture of things not in the treaty and ignorance of its contents. So I reckon they think we're morons now. Voting yes now probably won't help much, but if if the opinions of the rest of Europe are our main concern it's the lesser of two evils.

Not a reason to vote either way really, and definitely a silly reason to vote no. If a person expresses an opinion to me that I know to be contradicted by evidence and I show the person the evidence, I will think worse of them if they refuse to change their position.

imeddyhobbs

meglome wrote: »

he he he he. How can we gain credit when the EU ask us what we didn't like and we have nothing to tell them. We'll look like tools.

I think i know what you are saying....The EU asks us questions and we give the answers??and we are giving them the answer to the same question for a second time??

Max Power1

as has been quoted from various EU politicians, if given the chance the rest of the EU would reject this treaty, so it cant be a reason to generate ill will towards Ireland. (while this doesnt form any part of my reasoning to vote no)

Mrmoe

meglome wrote: »

he he he he. How can we gain credit when the EU ask us what we didn't like and we have nothing to tell them. We'll look like tools. Are some people that stupid they think we can go back to the EU to ask for a better deal when there are no real issues to get a better deal on. I really fear for this country, we repeatedly elect the likes Fianna Fail and can't seem to tell the difference between our own fantasy opinion and what's in a finely detailed legal document.

You may be correct in saying that we might agitate the political elite of the EU, however I do believe that we are providing a voice for the ordinary people of Europe who do not want this. I would much prefer to be respected by these people than by European politicians, generally I couldn't give a toss what they think. Legal documents can always be interpreted differently. No legal document can ever be explicit enough to ever rule out an interpretation that is different from yours.

imeddyhobbs

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I get your point. It's wrong. I think they were pretty baffled about why we voted no the first time, since our cited reasons were a mixture of things not in the treaty and ignorance of its contents. So I reckon they think we're morons now. Voting yes now probably won't help much, but if if the opinions of the rest of Europe are our main concern it's the lesser of two evils.

Not a reason to vote either way really, and definitely a silly reason to vote no. If a person expresses an opinion to me that I know to be contradicted by evidence and I show the person the evidence, I will think worse of them if they refuse to change their position.

So on that basis we can get rid of the current irish government..because we were ignorant at the time when we voted them in?

It doesnt work like that,give us a real argument ffs

namloc1980

Max Power1 wrote: »

as has been quoted from various EU politicians, if given the chance the rest of the EU would reject this treaty, so it cant be a reason to generate ill will towards Ireland.

Without any evidence to support this. Overall more people who had the oppurtunity, voted in favour of the Constitutional Treaty in 2005 than voted against it. And that was arguably a much more controversial document than Lisbon.

marco_polo

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

So on that basis we can get rid of the current irish government..because we were ignorant at the time when we voted them in?

It doesnt work like that,give us a real argument ffs

That just illustrates the pitfalls of not using your vote wisely doesn't it.

imeddyhobbs

marco_polo wrote: »

That just illustrates the pitfalls of not using your vote wisely doesn't it.

Are you talking about first time round or second time round?

Mrmoe

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I love how some of the same people who demand a treaty article as proof any time someone suggests that a yes vote will create confidence and help the economy are now saying that a no vote will get us respect. Which article says that eh?

Gauging if something will gain respect might be a little bit easier to determine that saying if something will stimulate an economy IMO. Even the best thought out plans for economic growth can fail to do that so to say with a definitive authority that a Yes vote would definitely stimulate the economy is a little bit too far reaching for me. There is a chance/possibility that this could happen but the I perceive the Yes side to be saying that it is a sure thing which can never be the case.

My name is URL

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Oh we'll have lots to say, that's the problem. We'll keep repeating nonsense lie after nonsense lie until the Irish people are considered to be on a par with creationists, 9/11 truthers and alien abductees

You really seemed like someone that respected their own freedom until you made that post

if you honestly think that all No voters are on par with those groups you mentioned then I pity you,

is your mind that closed?

Sir Oxman

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I love how some of the same people who demand a treaty article as proof any time someone suggests that a yes vote will create confidence and help the economy are now saying that a no vote will get us respect. Which article says that eh?

Doesn't need an article written by the likes of VAlery Gisacrd d'Estaing.

Sometimes, you have to stand up and be counted.

Say halt, and let us (yes, you a citizen who creams himself at the second opportunity to say yes) be involved and shape what we are with, the EU.

What is so scarey about that?
What are you afraid of?

Scofflaw

Max Power1 wrote: »

as has been quoted from various EU politicians, if given the chance the rest of the EU would reject this treaty, so it cant be a reason to generate ill will towards Ireland. (while this doesnt form any part of my reasoning to vote no)

Well, it's been said by Charlie McCreevy. Other than that, for the little that's worth, there's no actual evidence for the constant claim that Europe would vote No.

Unfortunately, even if it were true, it would be entirely irrelevant to whether a No vote tomorrow would reduce goodwill towards Ireland, because the EU is an intergovernmental framework, not a sports hall. The Irish government will be dealing with the other EU governments - and even if you believe the French really want to vote No (why aren't they protesting?), they also elected Sarkozy, just as the Germans have re-elected Merkel.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sir Oxman

Mrmoe wrote: »

Gauging if something will gain respect might be a little bit easier to determine that saying if something will stimulate an economy IMO. Even the best thought out plans for economic growth can fail to do that so to say with a definitive authority that a Yes vote would definitely stimulate the economy is a little bit too far reaching for me. There is a chance/possibility that this could happen but the I perceive the Yes side to be saying that it is a sure thing which can never be the case.

Exactly.
They have nothing except vague threats and if they accept those vague threats then they cannot call themselves men.

Rb

My name is URL wrote: »

And which negative consequences can you claim we'll incur?

Relativism, it only works when both sides have the same scope

As Sam Vimes goes on to explain, we're going to look like crackpots on par with those afraid of the lizard men if we're asked why we rejected this treaty again.

The No side have literally not put forward one factually correct problem with the treaty this time around, last time was extremely dubious and I'm sure eyes were rolled over the whole thing but they entertained us on our "concerns", however this time we literally have nothing to point to as a reason for voting against it.

We're going to look like absolute idiots and on an international level. Not exactly inspiring confidence in the Irish people.

People aren't going to go "Wow! Those brave Irish standing up to the EU" when the reasons for doing so emerge and point towards crackpot theories, as much as reasonable No voters might want to think otherwise.

This Treaty is something the Union and a hell of a lot of members want, and it has cost the EU taxpayer to draft it, put it to the people and then amend it in it's various forms, so they will want legitimate reasons for us rejecting it, and if we can't give them even one...well...it'll be humiliating.

Sir Oxman

Scofflaw wrote: »

Well, it's been said by Charlie McCreevy. Other than that, for the little that's worth, there's no actual evidence for the constant claim that Europe would vote No.

Unfortunately, even if it were true, it would be entirely irrelevant to whether a No vote tomorrow would reduce goodwill towards Ireland, because the EU is an intergovernmental framework, not a sports hall. The Irish government will be dealing with the other EU governments - and even if you believe the French really want to vote No (why aren't they protesting?), they also elected Sarkozy, just as the Germans have re-elected Merkel.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Though flowery talk, not enough reason to cut Irelands balls off.
For shame.