The most respected nation in the EU

imeddyhobbs

The most respected nation in the EU,thats what Ireland will be if a no vote is the outcome of Lisbon 2

If we vote yes then we will be known as a nation that has no backbone ,We voted no already,Lets do that again or let them keep walking all over us.

ei.sdraob

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

The most respected nation in the EU,thats what Ireland will be if a no vote is the outcome of Lisbon 2

If we vote yes then we will be known as a nation that has no backbone ,We voted no already,Lets do that again or let them keep walking all over us.

do you have anything to back your opinion with

?

imeddyhobbs

ei.sdraob wrote: »

do you have anything to back your opinion with

?

Nobody likes a turncoat

AtomicHorror

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Nobody likes a turncoat

Except presumably the side to which the turncoat turns... which in this case would be the EU. So, what was your point?

Rb

If we vote No, we'll be the laughing stock of the EU when we're asked what it was in the treaty we didn't like, and we have nothing to say.

Mrmoe

I think Ireland will gain a lot of credit and good will if we vote No. Something like this is always difficult to provide evidence for as there are too many intangibles. I haven't come across any negative response from other Europeans post the last referendum and if anything it has been positive, mostly thanking people for voting No.

My name is URL

ei.sdraob wrote: »

do you have anything to back your opinion with

?

It's an opinion.

Can you say you haven't expressed any all this time? :rolleyes:

And IMO he's right. The EU are going to pass this regardless, as has been said

and the Czechs are next in line to block it

Stop climbing up on your invisible horse only when it suits you

either accept that people have opinions of their own or stop conveying yours

imeddyhobbs

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Except presumably the side to which the turncoat turns... which in this case would be the EU. So, what was your point?

Do you really need me to spell my point out?are you sure about your question?

ei.sdraob

My name is URL wrote: »

It's an opinion.

Can you say you haven't expressed any all this time? :rolleyes:

And IMO he's right. The EU are going to pass this regardless, as has been said

and the Czechs are next in line to block it

Stop climbing up on your invisible horse only when it suits you

either accept that people have opinions of their own or stop conveying yours

I have opinions

but if you read my posts you would see most of them are referenced and linked

/

Sir Oxman

ei.sdraob wrote: »

do you have anything to back your opinion with

?

June 2008.

Rb

There will be no positive consequences to a No result, I don't see how people can claim otherwise.

imeddyhobbs

gambiaman wrote: »

June 2008.

The check is in the post gambiaman

My name is URL

Rb wrote: »

There will be no positive consequences to a No result, I don't see how people can claim otherwise.

And which negative consequences can you claim we'll incur?

Relativism, it only works when both sides have the same scope

meglome

Mrmoe wrote: »

I think Ireland will gain a lot of credit and good will if we vote No. Something like this is always difficult to provide evidence for as there are too many intangibles. I haven't come across any negative response from other Europeans post the last referendum and if anything it has been positive, mostly thanking people for voting No.

he he he he. How can we gain credit when the EU ask us what we didn't like and we have nothing to tell them. We'll look like tools. Are some people that stupid they think we can go back to the EU to ask for a better deal when there are no real issues to get a better deal on. I really fear for this country, we repeatedly elect the likes Fianna Fail and can't seem to tell the difference between our own fantasy opinion and what's in a finely detailed legal document.

Sam Vimes

Rb wrote: »

If we vote No, we'll be the laughing stock of the EU when we're asked what it was in the treaty we didn't like, and we have nothing to say.

Oh we'll have lots to say, that's the problem. We'll keep repeating nonsense lie after nonsense lie until the Irish people are considered to be on a par with creationists, 9/11 truthers and alien abductees

Sam Vimes

I love how some of the same people who demand a treaty article as proof any time someone suggests that a yes vote will create confidence and help the economy are now saying that a no vote will get us respect. Which article says that eh?

AtomicHorror

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Do you really need me to spell my point out?are you sure about your question?

I get your point. It's wrong. I think they were pretty baffled about why we voted no the first time, since our cited reasons were a mixture of things not in the treaty and ignorance of its contents. So I reckon they think we're morons now. Voting yes now probably won't help much, but if if the opinions of the rest of Europe are our main concern it's the lesser of two evils.

Not a reason to vote either way really, and definitely a silly reason to vote no. If a person expresses an opinion to me that I know to be contradicted by evidence and I show the person the evidence, I will think worse of them if they refuse to change their position.

imeddyhobbs

meglome wrote: »

he he he he. How can we gain credit when the EU ask us what we didn't like and we have nothing to tell them. We'll look like tools.

I think i know what you are saying....The EU asks us questions and we give the answers??and we are giving them the answer to the same question for a second time??

Max Power1

as has been quoted from various EU politicians, if given the chance the rest of the EU would reject this treaty, so it cant be a reason to generate ill will towards Ireland. (while this doesnt form any part of my reasoning to vote no)

Mrmoe

meglome wrote: »

he he he he. How can we gain credit when the EU ask us what we didn't like and we have nothing to tell them. We'll look like tools. Are some people that stupid they think we can go back to the EU to ask for a better deal when there are no real issues to get a better deal on. I really fear for this country, we repeatedly elect the likes Fianna Fail and can't seem to tell the difference between our own fantasy opinion and what's in a finely detailed legal document.

You may be correct in saying that we might agitate the political elite of the EU, however I do believe that we are providing a voice for the ordinary people of Europe who do not want this. I would much prefer to be respected by these people than by European politicians, generally I couldn't give a toss what they think. Legal documents can always be interpreted differently. No legal document can ever be explicit enough to ever rule out an interpretation that is different from yours.

imeddyhobbs

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I get your point. It's wrong. I think they were pretty baffled about why we voted no the first time, since our cited reasons were a mixture of things not in the treaty and ignorance of its contents. So I reckon they think we're morons now. Voting yes now probably won't help much, but if if the opinions of the rest of Europe are our main concern it's the lesser of two evils.

Not a reason to vote either way really, and definitely a silly reason to vote no. If a person expresses an opinion to me that I know to be contradicted by evidence and I show the person the evidence, I will think worse of them if they refuse to change their position.

So on that basis we can get rid of the current irish government..because we were ignorant at the time when we voted them in?

It doesnt work like that,give us a real argument ffs

namloc1980

Max Power1 wrote: »

as has been quoted from various EU politicians, if given the chance the rest of the EU would reject this treaty, so it cant be a reason to generate ill will towards Ireland.

Without any evidence to support this. Overall more people who had the oppurtunity, voted in favour of the Constitutional Treaty in 2005 than voted against it. And that was arguably a much more controversial document than Lisbon.

marco_polo

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

So on that basis we can get rid of the current irish government..because we were ignorant at the time when we voted them in?

It doesnt work like that,give us a real argument ffs

That just illustrates the pitfalls of not using your vote wisely doesn't it.

imeddyhobbs

marco_polo wrote: »

That just illustrates the pitfalls of not using your vote wisely doesn't it.

Are you talking about first time round or second time round?

Mrmoe

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I love how some of the same people who demand a treaty article as proof any time someone suggests that a yes vote will create confidence and help the economy are now saying that a no vote will get us respect. Which article says that eh?

Gauging if something will gain respect might be a little bit easier to determine that saying if something will stimulate an economy IMO. Even the best thought out plans for economic growth can fail to do that so to say with a definitive authority that a Yes vote would definitely stimulate the economy is a little bit too far reaching for me. There is a chance/possibility that this could happen but the I perceive the Yes side to be saying that it is a sure thing which can never be the case.

My name is URL

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Oh we'll have lots to say, that's the problem. We'll keep repeating nonsense lie after nonsense lie until the Irish people are considered to be on a par with creationists, 9/11 truthers and alien abductees

You really seemed like someone that respected their own freedom until you made that post

if you honestly think that all No voters are on par with those groups you mentioned then I pity you,

is your mind that closed?

Sir Oxman

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I love how some of the same people who demand a treaty article as proof any time someone suggests that a yes vote will create confidence and help the economy are now saying that a no vote will get us respect. Which article says that eh?

Doesn't need an article written by the likes of VAlery Gisacrd d'Estaing.

Sometimes, you have to stand up and be counted.

Say halt, and let us (yes, you a citizen who creams himself at the second opportunity to say yes) be involved and shape what we are with, the EU.

What is so scarey about that?
What are you afraid of?

Scofflaw

Max Power1 wrote: »

as has been quoted from various EU politicians, if given the chance the rest of the EU would reject this treaty, so it cant be a reason to generate ill will towards Ireland. (while this doesnt form any part of my reasoning to vote no)

Well, it's been said by Charlie McCreevy. Other than that, for the little that's worth, there's no actual evidence for the constant claim that Europe would vote No.

Unfortunately, even if it were true, it would be entirely irrelevant to whether a No vote tomorrow would reduce goodwill towards Ireland, because the EU is an intergovernmental framework, not a sports hall. The Irish government will be dealing with the other EU governments - and even if you believe the French really want to vote No (why aren't they protesting?), they also elected Sarkozy, just as the Germans have re-elected Merkel.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sir Oxman

Mrmoe wrote: »

Gauging if something will gain respect might be a little bit easier to determine that saying if something will stimulate an economy IMO. Even the best thought out plans for economic growth can fail to do that so to say with a definitive authority that a Yes vote would definitely stimulate the economy is a little bit too far reaching for me. There is a chance/possibility that this could happen but the I perceive the Yes side to be saying that it is a sure thing which can never be the case.

Exactly.
They have nothing except vague threats and if they accept those vague threats then they cannot call themselves men.

Rb

My name is URL wrote: »

And which negative consequences can you claim we'll incur?

Relativism, it only works when both sides have the same scope

As Sam Vimes goes on to explain, we're going to look like crackpots on par with those afraid of the lizard men if we're asked why we rejected this treaty again.

The No side have literally not put forward one factually correct problem with the treaty this time around, last time was extremely dubious and I'm sure eyes were rolled over the whole thing but they entertained us on our "concerns", however this time we literally have nothing to point to as a reason for voting against it.

We're going to look like absolute idiots and on an international level. Not exactly inspiring confidence in the Irish people.

People aren't going to go "Wow! Those brave Irish standing up to the EU" when the reasons for doing so emerge and point towards crackpot theories, as much as reasonable No voters might want to think otherwise.

This Treaty is something the Union and a hell of a lot of members want, and it has cost the EU taxpayer to draft it, put it to the people and then amend it in it's various forms, so they will want legitimate reasons for us rejecting it, and if we can't give them even one...well...it'll be humiliating.

Sir Oxman

Scofflaw wrote: »

Well, it's been said by Charlie McCreevy. Other than that, for the little that's worth, there's no actual evidence for the constant claim that Europe would vote No.

Unfortunately, even if it were true, it would be entirely irrelevant to whether a No vote tomorrow would reduce goodwill towards Ireland, because the EU is an intergovernmental framework, not a sports hall. The Irish government will be dealing with the other EU governments - and even if you believe the French really want to vote No (why aren't they protesting?), they also elected Sarkozy, just as the Germans have re-elected Merkel.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Though flowery talk, not enough reason to cut Irelands balls off.
For shame.

marco_polo

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Are you talking about first time round or second time round?

Any time.

* Disclaimer: Not talking about you. Just thinking of voters who have moved from 'If you don't know vote know '/ 'neutrality' / 'abortion' / 'taxation' category the last time, into the 'No means no' category for this one

Sir Oxman

Rb wrote: »

As Sam Vimes goes on to explain, we're going to look like crackpots on par with those afraid of the lizard men if we're asked why we rejected this treaty again.

The No side have literally not put forward one factually correct problem with the treaty this time around, last time was extremely dubious and I'm sure eyes were rolled over the whole thing but they entertained us on our "concerns", however this time we literally have nothing to point to as a reason for voting against it.

We're going to look like absolute idiots and on an international level. Not exactly inspiring confidence in the Irish people.

People aren't going to go "Wow! Those brave Irish standing up to the EU" when the reasons for doing so emerge and point towards crackpot theories, as much as reasonable No voters might want to think otherwise.

This Treaty is something the Union and a hell of a lot of members want, and it has cost the EU taxpayer to draft it, put it to the people and then amend it in it's various forms, so they will want legitimate reasons for us rejecting it, and if we can't give them even one...well...it'll be humiliating.

There you go and expose yourself.
We're going to look this' we're going to look that', god, I bet you look good on the dancefloor. Get over your inferiority complex and don't inflict it on the rest of us.

As for the other members wanting it, the Czechs and Poles don't. Or do they and us not count?

Sir Oxman

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I get your point. It's wrong. I think they were pretty baffled about why we voted no the first time, since our cited reasons were a mixture of things not in the treaty and ignorance of its contents. So I reckon they think we're morons now. Voting yes now probably won't help much, but if if the opinions of the rest of Europe are our main concern it's the lesser of two evils.

Not a reason to vote either way really, and definitely a silly reason to vote no. If a person expresses an opinion to me that I know to be contradicted by evidence and I show the person the evidence, I will think worse of them if they refuse to change their position.

Cited reasons? I think thats where your post goes tits up.

meglome

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

I think i know what you are saying....The EU asks us questions and we give the answers??and we are giving them the answer to the same question for a second time??

The EU says "Hey Ireland what didn't you like about the treaty, we can fix this for you". Ireland says "Hi EU thanks for that we didn't like the treaty because we didn't know what was in it". EU says..."Oh right... emm... ahh... how do we fix what isn't there?". All the while thinking are these people mad or something.

Mrmoe wrote: »

You may be correct in saying that we might agitate the political elite of the EU, however I do believe that we are providing a voice for the ordinary people of Europe who do not want this. I would much prefer to be respected by these people than by European politicians, generally I couldn't give a toss what they think. Legal documents can always be interpreted differently. No legal document can ever be explicit enough to ever rule out an interpretation that is different from yours.

No I didn't say that. Funny these 'political elites' are people we elect, always us and them with some of you No campaigners. It's just your opinion that the people of Europe want is to to anything. I was in Germany for two weeks there and not one person even mentioned the Lisbon treaty and the Germans just re-elected the same government who ratified the Lisbon treaty. And let's be very straight here the French will protest if it happens to be raining and where are the protests? You are entitled to your opinion but the reality doesn't bear it out.

marco_polo

gambiaman wrote: »

** As for the other members wanting it, the Czechs and Poles don't. Or do they and us not count?

**[citation needed]

Sir Oxman

marco_polo wrote: »

Any time.

* Disclaimer: Not talking about you. Just thinking of voters who have moved from 'If you don't know vote know '/ 'neutrality' / 'abortion' / 'taxation' category the last time, into the 'No means no' category for this one

Juts so you know, I've been told if I don't vote Yes there will never be another job in this country ever again.
And if I do, there'll be loads.

Discuss.

CCCP^

namloc1980 wrote: »

Without any evidence to support this. Overall more people who had the oppurtunity, voted in favour of the Constitutional Treaty in 2005 than voted against it. And that was arguably a much more controversial document than Lisbon.

60% of voters in Holland and 55% of voters in France voted No to the Constitutional Treaty. There is approx. 17 million people in Holland, 65 million in France.

Of the nations who also voted on the treaty, Spain and Luxembourg...well 77% of voters in Spain said Yes, however only 42% of the 47 million people there turned out for that, making it the worst voter turnout since the restoration of democracy in Spain.

In Luxembourg, a country roughly the size of Leinster saw 57% of voters in an 88% turnout say Yes. Luxembourg has a population of 500,000 people.

So, I would have to say, by percentages then maybe yes, more people voted Yes, but in actual numbers, then no, more people said No. Far more people. Actually if someone wants to do the maths I'm sure they would find it's No overall, but its late and I'm tired and I hate maths.

Sir Oxman

marco_polo wrote: »

**[citation needed]

Czech senators refer Treaty to Czech Supreme Court, Polish president still hasn't signed it (both mean, it's not ratified fyi)

That's their voting mechanisms, accept them or reject them?

Rb

gambiaman wrote: »

There you go and expose yourself.
We're going to look this' we're going to look that', god, I bet you look good on the dancefloor. Get over your inferiority complex and don't inflict it on the rest of us.

As for the other members wanting it, the Czechs and Poles don't. Or do they and us not count?

Oh, forgive me for actually being concerned over the future of this country.

I know reckless voting is popular on the No side, but I'll admit that the whole thing does concern me and I'm particuarly distraught at the thought of us rejecting a reformation treaty for absolutely no legitimate reason. None whatsoever.

You're single-handedly dragging the tone of each thread you're posting in tonight below the running average for the forum over the past few months, which says enough in itself. Either put some thought into your posts or I won't be bothered replying to them should you address me again on the matter.

Tarobot

gambiaman wrote: »

Juts so you know, I've been told if I don't vote Yes there will never be another job in this country ever again.

Who told you that?

prinz

CCCP^ wrote: »

So, I would have to say, by percentages then maybe yes, more people voted Yes, but in actual numbers, then no, more people said No. Far more people. Actually if someone wants to do the maths I'm sure they would find it's No overall, but its late and I'm tired and I hate maths.

No, you are in fact wrong. Far more people were in favour and said Yes.

CCCP^

If we vote Yes and Lisbon gets passed, can we use that million signatures thing to get it repealed? :P

imeddyhobbs

meglome wrote: »

The EU says "Hey Ireland what didn't you like about the treaty, we can fix this for you". Ireland says "Hi EU thanks for that we didn't like the treaty because we didn't know what was in it". EU says..."Oh right... emm... ahh... how do we fix what isn't there?". All the while thinking are these people mad or something.

You really are all over the place,just like your profile says...

Sir Oxman

Rb wrote: »

Oh, forgive me for actually being concerned over the future of this country.

I know reckless voting is popular on the No side, but I'll admit that the whole thing does concern me and I'm particuarly distraught at the thought of us rejecting a reformation treaty for absolutely no legitimate reason. None whatsoever.

What has that got to do witn what I posted?

As it's a reformation treaty, I'm assured by that response that no economic harm will befall my country by rejceting it. Again.

Rb

CCCP^ wrote: »

If we vote Yes and Lisbon gets passed, can we use that million signatures thing to get it repealed? :P

On what grounds? What part/article of the treaty itself do you have an issue with?

Rb

gambiaman wrote: »

What has that got to do witn what I posted?

As it's a reformation treaty, I'm assured by that response that no economic harm will befall my country by rejceting it. Again.

You claim I have an inferiority complex, I explain it is merely concern for Ireland, its progress as well as that of the entire EU's. If you're going to make such frivellous claims, I do suggest you keep up. Please read the updated part of that post you quoted also.

Sir Oxman

CCCP^ wrote: »

If we vote Yes and Lisbon gets passed, can we use that million signatures thing to get it repealed? :P

I asked that, tongue in cheek the other day in another thread and funnily enough, no response.

I'm sure someone will be along and say yes though.
I wonder will it be taken notice of...mmm, a million citizens saying hold on, can we have another go?


VIVA EUROPA.

Remember, the govt doesn't run itself on opinoin polls but re-running a referndum on one is okay.

meglome

CCCP^ wrote: »

If we vote Yes and Lisbon gets passed, can we use that million signatures thing to get it repealed? :P

All you need to do is vote for a government that want to change our constitution.

Sir Oxman

Rb wrote: »

You claim I have an inferiority complex, I explain it is merely concern for Ireland, its progress as well as that of the entire EU's. If you're going to make such frivellous claims, I do suggest you keep up. Please read the updated part of that post you quoted also.

Will economic harm befall my country if my country yets again rejects a purely reformatory treaty?

Sir Oxman

Rb wrote: »

You claim I have an inferiority complex, I explain it is merely concern for Ireland, its progress as well as that of the entire EU's. If you're going to make such frivellous claims, I do suggest you keep up. Please read the updated part of that post you quoted also.

PS I claim nothing, your words say it all.

You care too much what Mdm Baguette thinks of you and it shows.