The most respected nation in the EU

marco_polo

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Are you talking about first time round or second time round?

Any time.

* Disclaimer: Not talking about you. Just thinking of voters who have moved from 'If you don't know vote know '/ 'neutrality' / 'abortion' / 'taxation' category the last time, into the 'No means no' category for this one

Sir Oxman

Rb wrote: »

As Sam Vimes goes on to explain, we're going to look like crackpots on par with those afraid of the lizard men if we're asked why we rejected this treaty again.

The No side have literally not put forward one factually correct problem with the treaty this time around, last time was extremely dubious and I'm sure eyes were rolled over the whole thing but they entertained us on our "concerns", however this time we literally have nothing to point to as a reason for voting against it.

We're going to look like absolute idiots and on an international level. Not exactly inspiring confidence in the Irish people.

People aren't going to go "Wow! Those brave Irish standing up to the EU" when the reasons for doing so emerge and point towards crackpot theories, as much as reasonable No voters might want to think otherwise.

This Treaty is something the Union and a hell of a lot of members want, and it has cost the EU taxpayer to draft it, put it to the people and then amend it in it's various forms, so they will want legitimate reasons for us rejecting it, and if we can't give them even one...well...it'll be humiliating.

There you go and expose yourself.
We're going to look this' we're going to look that', god, I bet you look good on the dancefloor. Get over your inferiority complex and don't inflict it on the rest of us.

As for the other members wanting it, the Czechs and Poles don't. Or do they and us not count?

Sir Oxman

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I get your point. It's wrong. I think they were pretty baffled about why we voted no the first time, since our cited reasons were a mixture of things not in the treaty and ignorance of its contents. So I reckon they think we're morons now. Voting yes now probably won't help much, but if if the opinions of the rest of Europe are our main concern it's the lesser of two evils.

Not a reason to vote either way really, and definitely a silly reason to vote no. If a person expresses an opinion to me that I know to be contradicted by evidence and I show the person the evidence, I will think worse of them if they refuse to change their position.

Cited reasons? I think thats where your post goes tits up.

meglome

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

I think i know what you are saying....The EU asks us questions and we give the answers??and we are giving them the answer to the same question for a second time??

The EU says "Hey Ireland what didn't you like about the treaty, we can fix this for you". Ireland says "Hi EU thanks for that we didn't like the treaty because we didn't know what was in it". EU says..."Oh right... emm... ahh... how do we fix what isn't there?". All the while thinking are these people mad or something.

Mrmoe wrote: »

You may be correct in saying that we might agitate the political elite of the EU, however I do believe that we are providing a voice for the ordinary people of Europe who do not want this. I would much prefer to be respected by these people than by European politicians, generally I couldn't give a toss what they think. Legal documents can always be interpreted differently. No legal document can ever be explicit enough to ever rule out an interpretation that is different from yours.

No I didn't say that. Funny these 'political elites' are people we elect, always us and them with some of you No campaigners. It's just your opinion that the people of Europe want is to to anything. I was in Germany for two weeks there and not one person even mentioned the Lisbon treaty and the Germans just re-elected the same government who ratified the Lisbon treaty. And let's be very straight here the French will protest if it happens to be raining and where are the protests? You are entitled to your opinion but the reality doesn't bear it out.

marco_polo

gambiaman wrote: »

** As for the other members wanting it, the Czechs and Poles don't. Or do they and us not count?

**[citation needed]

Sir Oxman

marco_polo wrote: »

Any time.

* Disclaimer: Not talking about you. Just thinking of voters who have moved from 'If you don't know vote know '/ 'neutrality' / 'abortion' / 'taxation' category the last time, into the 'No means no' category for this one

Juts so you know, I've been told if I don't vote Yes there will never be another job in this country ever again.
And if I do, there'll be loads.

Discuss.

CCCP^

namloc1980 wrote: »

Without any evidence to support this. Overall more people who had the oppurtunity, voted in favour of the Constitutional Treaty in 2005 than voted against it. And that was arguably a much more controversial document than Lisbon.

60% of voters in Holland and 55% of voters in France voted No to the Constitutional Treaty. There is approx. 17 million people in Holland, 65 million in France.

Of the nations who also voted on the treaty, Spain and Luxembourg...well 77% of voters in Spain said Yes, however only 42% of the 47 million people there turned out for that, making it the worst voter turnout since the restoration of democracy in Spain.

In Luxembourg, a country roughly the size of Leinster saw 57% of voters in an 88% turnout say Yes. Luxembourg has a population of 500,000 people.

So, I would have to say, by percentages then maybe yes, more people voted Yes, but in actual numbers, then no, more people said No. Far more people. Actually if someone wants to do the maths I'm sure they would find it's No overall, but its late and I'm tired and I hate maths.

Sir Oxman

marco_polo wrote: »

**[citation needed]

Czech senators refer Treaty to Czech Supreme Court, Polish president still hasn't signed it (both mean, it's not ratified fyi)

That's their voting mechanisms, accept them or reject them?

Rb

gambiaman wrote: »

There you go and expose yourself.
We're going to look this' we're going to look that', god, I bet you look good on the dancefloor. Get over your inferiority complex and don't inflict it on the rest of us.

As for the other members wanting it, the Czechs and Poles don't. Or do they and us not count?

Oh, forgive me for actually being concerned over the future of this country.

I know reckless voting is popular on the No side, but I'll admit that the whole thing does concern me and I'm particuarly distraught at the thought of us rejecting a reformation treaty for absolutely no legitimate reason. None whatsoever.

You're single-handedly dragging the tone of each thread you're posting in tonight below the running average for the forum over the past few months, which says enough in itself. Either put some thought into your posts or I won't be bothered replying to them should you address me again on the matter.

Tarobot

gambiaman wrote: »

Juts so you know, I've been told if I don't vote Yes there will never be another job in this country ever again.

Who told you that?

prinz

CCCP^ wrote: »

So, I would have to say, by percentages then maybe yes, more people voted Yes, but in actual numbers, then no, more people said No. Far more people. Actually if someone wants to do the maths I'm sure they would find it's No overall, but its late and I'm tired and I hate maths.

No, you are in fact wrong. Far more people were in favour and said Yes.

CCCP^

If we vote Yes and Lisbon gets passed, can we use that million signatures thing to get it repealed? :P

imeddyhobbs

meglome wrote: »

The EU says "Hey Ireland what didn't you like about the treaty, we can fix this for you". Ireland says "Hi EU thanks for that we didn't like the treaty because we didn't know what was in it". EU says..."Oh right... emm... ahh... how do we fix what isn't there?". All the while thinking are these people mad or something.

You really are all over the place,just like your profile says...

Sir Oxman

Rb wrote: »

Oh, forgive me for actually being concerned over the future of this country.

I know reckless voting is popular on the No side, but I'll admit that the whole thing does concern me and I'm particuarly distraught at the thought of us rejecting a reformation treaty for absolutely no legitimate reason. None whatsoever.

What has that got to do witn what I posted?

As it's a reformation treaty, I'm assured by that response that no economic harm will befall my country by rejceting it. Again.

Rb

CCCP^ wrote: »

If we vote Yes and Lisbon gets passed, can we use that million signatures thing to get it repealed? :P

On what grounds? What part/article of the treaty itself do you have an issue with?

Rb

gambiaman wrote: »

What has that got to do witn what I posted?

As it's a reformation treaty, I'm assured by that response that no economic harm will befall my country by rejceting it. Again.

You claim I have an inferiority complex, I explain it is merely concern for Ireland, its progress as well as that of the entire EU's. If you're going to make such frivellous claims, I do suggest you keep up. Please read the updated part of that post you quoted also.

Sir Oxman

CCCP^ wrote: »

If we vote Yes and Lisbon gets passed, can we use that million signatures thing to get it repealed? :P

I asked that, tongue in cheek the other day in another thread and funnily enough, no response.

I'm sure someone will be along and say yes though.
I wonder will it be taken notice of...mmm, a million citizens saying hold on, can we have another go?


VIVA EUROPA.

Remember, the govt doesn't run itself on opinoin polls but re-running a referndum on one is okay.

meglome

CCCP^ wrote: »

If we vote Yes and Lisbon gets passed, can we use that million signatures thing to get it repealed? :P

All you need to do is vote for a government that want to change our constitution.

Sir Oxman

Rb wrote: »

You claim I have an inferiority complex, I explain it is merely concern for Ireland, its progress as well as that of the entire EU's. If you're going to make such frivellous claims, I do suggest you keep up. Please read the updated part of that post you quoted also.

Will economic harm befall my country if my country yets again rejects a purely reformatory treaty?

Sir Oxman

Rb wrote: »

You claim I have an inferiority complex, I explain it is merely concern for Ireland, its progress as well as that of the entire EU's. If you're going to make such frivellous claims, I do suggest you keep up. Please read the updated part of that post you quoted also.

PS I claim nothing, your words say it all.

You care too much what Mdm Baguette thinks of you and it shows.

Sam Vimes

Mrmoe wrote: »

Gauging if something will gain respect might be a little bit easier to determine that saying if something will stimulate an economy IMO. Even the best thought out plans for economic growth can fail to do that so to say with a definitive authority that a Yes vote would definitely stimulate the economy is a little bit too far reaching for me. There is a chance/possibility that this could happen but the I perceive the Yes side to be saying that it is a sure thing which can never be the case.

So the possibility of future respect can be gauged but the possibility of future confidence can't? From where I'm sitting people on the no side 'perceive' the yes side to be saying that it is a sure thing (or more commonly that if yes means jobs then no means no jobs) because it's much easier to dismiss a statement when you over simplify it.

imeddyhobbs there isn't using the words possibly, maybe or might, he said:

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

The most respected nation in the EU,thats what Ireland will be if a no vote is the outcome of Lisbon 2

If we vote yes then we will be known as a nation that has no backbone ,We voted no already,Lets do that again or let them keep walking all over us.

He is predicting the future much more confidently than the yes side are and yet the same people who dismiss the yes sides claims as lies and rubbish and demand a treaty article stating it will happen are here agreeing with him. I just find it interesting....

Sam Vimes

My name is URL wrote: »

You really seemed like someone that respected their own freedom until you made that post

if you honestly think that all No voters are on par with those groups you mentioned then I pity you,

is your mind that closed?

I don't think that all no voters are on a par with those groups, I'm sure there are people who have their own reasons but anyone who ever talks about their reasons for voting no invariably, and I mean invariably, gives a big list of misconceptions and nonsense. Nonsense such as this short list:

€200 billion in fisheries
€1.84 minimum wage
Forcing us to engage in military action in a terrorist attack
European superstate
Abortion, gay marriage and EUthanasia
Death penalty
Massive conspiracy to pretend the guarantees are binding
Treaty is unreadable
Treaty is designed to be unreadable
Corrupt surveys to make up fake issues and pretend to address them
Ratification through parliament in other countries is somehow undemocratic or unusual
EU "didn't allow" other countres to have referendums
Keep voting until you give the right answer
Ryanair allowed buy Aer Lingus in exchange for the campaign
Rigged polls to make it look like the yes side are ahead
Lisbon allows Turkish accession (with fake video)
Lisbon makes EU law superior to Irish law
Losing the right to referendums
We will no longer have a constitution in Ireland
Self-amending and escalator clause
Privatisation of healthcare and education
More military spending
Lavelle case could happen here
Charter of human rights allows the EU to take the homes, assets and children of people with mild intellectual disabilities and alcoholics
Voting weight halved
QMV is brand new
Loss of veto in all areas
Allows EU to raise our corporation tax
Conscription into a non-existent EU army
EU commission diverted €10 million to yes campaign
Treaty is the same as the constitution dressed up to avoid referendums
Fake polls made up by Coir
2nd vote undemocratic. (The reasons that many people voted no have been addressed and the supreme court has ruled that it's not)

Yes there are people with valid reasons to vote no but I have yet to meet them, and I have been doing my very best. In all this time the only relevant and valid treaty based reason I've come across to vote no is the move to QMV which is a just a different ideological position but even that is usually littered with misconceptions, such as the idea that it applies in all areas, that it's brand new or that it's a simple majority of 50% population to pass something. My mind is not closed, it's very much open. I have listened to everything no voters have to say both on and off boards and, other than the move to QMV, I have rarely even heard anything that's true, never mind a valid reason. If a no vote passes the surveys will be done and they will be littered with the above nonsense and it will make the Irish people look like gobsh!tes. The valid reasons will be there but they will be drowned out by the noise of bullsh!t

CCCP^

prinz wrote: »

No, you are in fact wrong. Far more people were in favour and said Yes.

45,950,000 No.

20,180,000 Yes.

I am not wrong, infact I am correct. Twice as many people said No to the Constitutional Treaty than said Yes. Could you tell me how I am wrong Prinz?

OldJay

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Nobody likes a turncoat

Thats a no then.

Rb

gambiaman wrote: »

PS I claim nothing, your words say it all.

You care too much what Mdm Baguette thinks of you and it shows.

Ok, I've requested that you up the tone of your posts if you're going to continue addressing me and you've shown yourself to be incapable of doing so. Good luck with your incoherent rambling, I'm not engaging with you on the matter any further.

namloc1980

CCCP^ wrote: »

60% of voters in Holland and 55% of voters in France voted No to the Constitutional Treaty. There is approx. 17 million people in Holland, 65 million in France.

Of the nations who also voted on the treaty, Spain and Luxembourg...well 77% of voters in Spain said Yes, however only 42% of the 47 million people there turned out for that, making it the worst voter turnout since the restoration of democracy in Spain.

In Luxembourg, a country roughly the size of Leinster saw 57% of voters in an 88% turnout say Yes. Luxembourg has a population of 500,000 people.

So, I would have to say, by percentages then maybe yes, more people voted Yes, but in actual numbers, then no, more people said No. Far more people. Actually if someone wants to do the maths I'm sure they would find it's No overall, but its late and I'm tired and I hate maths.

Oh my oh my.....

France
Yes 12,806,394 45.32%
No 15,450,279 54.68%

Spain
Yes 10,804,464 76.73%
No 2,428,409 17.24%

Luxembourg
Yes 109,494 56.52%
No 84,221 43.48%

Netherlands
Yes 2,940,730 38.5%
No 4,705,685 61.5%

TOTAL YES 26,661,082 53.94%
TOTAL NO 22,668,594 46.06%

procure11

Rb wrote: »

If we vote No, we'll be the laughing stock of the EU when we're asked what it was in the treaty we didn't like, and we have nothing to say.

How would you know that???

You and other yes proponents keep talking about how we cannot statistically determine how europe would have voted if there was a referendum in all member nations.I am now putting to you to validate/defend your statement about Ireland being a laughing stock in the event of a No vote...statistically!!

Sam Vimes

gambiaman wrote: »

There you go and expose yourself.
We're going to look this' we're going to look that', god, I bet you look good on the dancefloor. Get over your inferiority complex and don't inflict it on the rest of us.

As for the other members wanting it, the Czechs and Poles don't. Or do they and us not count?

He's exposed nothing except the ignorance of the Irish people. If you prevent 26 countries from enacting a treaty they've ratified (or intend to ratify) and when asked why you give a big load of misconceptions and lies that you clung to in the face of overwhelming evidence, you don't get respect, you get ridicule.

Rb

CCCP^, again, could you briefly point to the article in the treaty itself that you're voting against as a result of?

Rb

procure11 wrote: »

How would you know that???

You and other yes proponents keep talking about how we cannot statistically determine how europe would have voted if there was a referendum in all member nations.I am now putting to you to validate/defend your statement about Ireland being a laughing stock in the event of a No vote...statistically!!

You're right, people won't be laughing, in fact with the amount of time and energy going into this, for us to reject it without a valid reason would possibly make them furious.