Is Ireland on the brink of class warfare?

optocynic

brianthebard wrote: »

So you're ok with being wrong? Btw there's a reason less people from working class (I prefer to be described by that term instead of lower class-a clear illustration of your middle class upbringing and aspirations) but I'll leave you to guess what those reasons are....

I am not wrong!
You are patronising to any 'working class' people who you think cannot move up! How useless do you think Irish people are?

I must clarify.. to me.. working class, is people that work.. lower class, are people that choose not to work..

How's that distinction for you?

So... once again...:

"We are one of the few countries in which you are free to pull yourself up by your bootstraps... why don't we all do it? "

Answer that!

r3nu4l

optocynic wrote: »

I must clarify.. to me.. working class, is people that work.. lower class, are people that choose not to work..

How's that distinction for you?

Some commentators use the term 'underclass' to describe those who are on benefits, a term I find equally as abhorent as 'lower' class. How would I describe them is difficult to say but I really dislike the idea of a class system and if you think it's bad in Ireland you should live in England where it is truly evident, in place and very much a part of daily life!

kickoutthejams

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I really don't know what you are trying to say with this post.

I would have thought it obvious.

People like Bhreathnach may be in the Labour Party. That is, of course, not to say she is a Socialist. No more than Mr. Blair in England.

optocynic

r3nu4l wrote: »

Some commentators use the term 'underclass' to describe those who are on benefits, a term I find equally as abhorent as 'lower' class. How would I describe them is difficult to say but I really dislike the idea of a class system and if you think it's bad in Ireland you should live in England where it is truly evident, in place and very much a part of daily life!

This is my point!
In Ireland, anyone has the potential, and the means to succeed. Regardless of their origin!..
The only people that hang onto the class system are in fact the 'socialists'.. who like to create this idea of an inner circle of 'Rich' families... into which us simple peasants can't break!..
It is outdated marxism.. populist crap designed to placate malcontents.. into thinking success is to be shunned.. rather than admired..

In this country, earning a good salary is somehow frowned upon by the 'people'... I find it insane!

thirtythirty

I'm going to interject into this argument.

To those who were saying that working/lower class are stupid or have a low IQ, you yourself must have a less than average IQ if you can't see why it seems like "they" are stupid - Working/lower class people do not have as good an education as others, for a number of reasons, hence their articulation and approach to situations seems "dumb" sometimes. However that does not mean that they themselves are stupid.

I know a partner of a company that came from a background which everyone here would unanimously agree to be lower class, yet he is one of the smartest and most well spoken people i've ever met.


To those who were saying that working/lower class are lazy - yes, there will always be a small percentage of any society who are the dregs, however most of the "lazy people" simply have no opportunity to change lifestyles. It's very difficult for people in middle and upper classes who have qualifications and natural networks of people in places that open many doors to try and think what it would be like to be in a position of having no qualifications, and only knowing other e.g. bin men. To any bin men here i mean no offence - just picking a job that is accessible to anyone regardless of qualifications!


I personally think Ireland is one of the best places in the world for integration of classes and respect to countrymen, regardless of class. These days you see more and more "lower class" people in college sitting beside the person who's dad owns Mercedes Ireland; anyone chats to anyone on nights out if they feel like it; and there is incredibly small amounts of resistance to paying for social welfare.

So my answer is no, we couldnt be further away from a class war. The lisbon divide is a direct result of the anger that is being felt as part of this recession. Working class people have felt the bite worse than anyone else, and if it wasnt lisbon, it would be something else that would be the focus of the country's anger. And i can prove that by quoting a spray-painted sentence i saw on the northside yesterday, it said "screw the bankers, vote no". As if a no vote has anything to do with the bankers - it just proves how the anger felt is being tied to lisbon.

Fair play to anyone who reads that rant!

optocynic

spottyelephant wrote: »

I'm going to interject into this argument.

To those who were saying that working/lower class are stupid or have a low IQ, you yourself must have a less than average IQ if you can't see why it seems like "they" are stupid - Working/lower class people do not have as good an education as others, for a number of reasons, hence their articulation and approach to situations seems "dumb" sometimes. However that does not mean that they themselves are stupid.

I know a partner of a company that came from a background which everyone here would unanimously agree to be lower class, yet he is one of the smartest and most well spoken people i've ever met.


To those who were saying that working/lower class are lazy - yes, there will always be a small percentage of any society who are the dregs, however most of the "lazy people" simply have no opportunity to change lifestyles. It's very difficult for people in middle and upper classes who have qualifications and natural networks of people in places that open many doors to try and think what it would be like to be in a position of having no qualifications, and only knowing other e.g. bin men. To any bin men here i mean no offence - just picking a job that is accessible to anyone regardless of qualifications!


I personally think Ireland is one of the best places in the world for integration of classes and respect to countrymen, regardless of class. These days you see more and more "lower class" people in college sitting beside the person who's dad owns Mercedes Ireland; anyone chats to anyone on nights out if they feel like it; and there is incredibly small amounts of resistance to paying for social welfare.

So my answer is no, we couldnt be further away from a class war. The lisbon divide is a direct result of the anger that is being felt as part of this recession. Working class people have felt the bite worse than anyone else, and if it wasnt lisbon, it would be something else that would be the focus of the country's anger. And i can prove that by quoting a spray-painted sentence i saw on the northside yesterday, it said "screw the bankers, vote no". As if a no vote has anything to do with the bankers - it just proves how the anger felt is being tied to lisbon.

Fair play to anyone who reads that rant!

That wasn't a rant... it was lucid and rational... it was the truth.
My applause to you!

And I saw that same graffitti on Bachelor's Walk too.. and I will safely say that the person who wrote it is quiet stupid!.. But I understand their(misplaced) anger!

thebman

People without a third level education doing manual labour are more likely to believe that the foreigners are coming to take their jobs IMO.

People with third level are more likely to think that this doesn't apply to them as they have an education.

Both are wrong really. Manual laborers may loose their job to foreign workers but may not if they are good at their jobs and there is skill involved and they are willing to work for the appropriate range for that skill level.

Eduated peoples jobs can be outsourced or a better qualified applicant may apply from outside the country and get the job and immigrate to Ireland to get the job.

Same goes for those people leaving to other countries to get jobs in other countries. Nobody sees themselves as taking jobs from other countries when
they emmigrate but people that immigrate here are taking our jobs apparently :-/

Oh and that effects Lisbon because people see the EU as reducing barriers to people coming here to work and are afraid because Irish people mostly only speak English where as most people in other EU countries speak two languages at least so have one up on most Irish people before they start or at least seen that way. Personally I think most Irish employers would hire an Irish person for a job preferably because they'd fit the general culture of the company and the customer better.

nesf

spottyelephant wrote: »

I'm going to interject into this argument.

To those who were saying that working/lower class are stupid or have a low IQ, you yourself must have a less than average IQ if you can't see why it seems like "they" are stupid - Working/lower class people do not have as good an education as others, for a number of reasons, hence their articulation and approach to situations seems "dumb" sometimes. However that does not mean that they themselves are stupid.

I know a partner of a company that came from a background which everyone here would unanimously agree to be lower class, yet he is one of the smartest and most well spoken people i've ever met.


To those who were saying that working/lower class are lazy - yes, there will always be a small percentage of any society who are the dregs, however most of the "lazy people" simply have no opportunity to change lifestyles. It's very difficult for people in middle and upper classes who have qualifications and natural networks of people in places that open many doors to try and think what it would be like to be in a position of having no qualifications, and only knowing other e.g. bin men. To any bin men here i mean no offence - just picking a job that is accessible to anyone regardless of qualifications!


I personally think Ireland is one of the best places in the world for integration of classes and respect to countrymen, regardless of class. These days you see more and more "lower class" people in college sitting beside the person who's dad owns Mercedes Ireland; anyone chats to anyone on nights out if they feel like it; and there is incredibly small amounts of resistance to paying for social welfare.

So my answer is no, we couldnt be further away from a class war. The lisbon divide is a direct result of the anger that is being felt as part of this recession. Working class people have felt the bite worse than anyone else, and if it wasnt lisbon, it would be something else that would be the focus of the country's anger. And i can prove that by quoting a spray-painted sentence i saw on the northside yesterday, it said "screw the bankers, vote no". As if a no vote has anything to do with the bankers - it just proves how the anger felt is being tied to lisbon.

Fair play to anyone who reads that rant!

Not a rant in the slightest, by far one of the best posts in this thread.

djpbarry

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Indeed, but if I remember rightly, you grew up in a lower middle class household?

I honestly have no idea what that is.

brianthebard wrote: »

You can consider it what you want but free education is and has always been a left wing policy and not a capitalist one. Its time you faced facts the free education you benefited from was introduced by left wing members of a coalition government. If your present criticism of leftist policies had been heeded at the time then you would never have gotten that education you apparently value so much.

But unfortunately, it hasn’t had the desired effect – free third-level fees have disproportionately benefitted the wealthy. The continuation of the scheme must therefore be questioned (but that's a matter for another thread).

dmfod wrote: »

there is some class mobility in the system obviously, it's not India a hundred years ago. But the point is you're much more likely to end up working class if born that way...

I don’t agree with that at all and actually find it quite insulting. Generally speaking, a person from a so-called “working-class” background (I absolutely abhor such labels) is more than capable of bettering themselves if they are sufficiently motivated.

Lockstep

djpbarry wrote: »

I honestly have no idea what that is.

A lower middle class family

anonymous_joe

spottyelephant wrote: »

So my answer is no, we couldnt be further away from a class war. The lisbon divide is a direct result of the anger that is being felt as part of this recession. Working class people have felt the bite worse than anyone else, and if it wasnt lisbon, it would be something else that would be the focus of the country's anger. And i can prove that by quoting a spray-painted sentence i saw on the northside yesterday, it said "screw the bankers, vote no". As if a no vote has anything to do with the bankers - it just proves how the anger felt is being tied to lisbon.

Fair play to anyone who reads that rant!

Great post in general, dude, just oen thing;

Working class people haven't felt the recession the most, the people who have our architects, builders, solicitors, etc, that is, all those connected to the building trade, be it the engineer or the bloke making cement.

And that's classless, that impacts on all aspects of our society.

The Lisbon thing is an example of ignorance (note: not stupidity) - people who know nothing of politics are going to vote No to fcuk FF, or because they've been convinced the treaty lets the banks off. (For the record, hedge fund managers are funding Ganley so as to escape increased regulation, indicating that a yes vote would do more damage to at least that part of the banking world.)

optocynic

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Great post in general, dude, just oen thing;

Working class people haven't felt the recession the most, the people who have our architects, builders, solicitors, etc, that is, all those connected to the building trade, be it the engineer or the bloke making cement.

And that's classless, that impacts on all aspects of our society.

The Lisbon thing is an example of ignorance (note: not stupidity) - people who know nothing of politics are going to vote No to fcuk FF, or because they've been convinced the treaty lets the banks off. (For the record, hedge fund managers are funding Ganley so as to escape increased regulation, indicating that a yes vote would do more damage to at least that part of the banking world.)

Spottyelephant had the best post in the thread.... until this one!
Kudos!

MG

The Lisbon vote has certainly quelled many of my fears. I applaud the lower classed who aspire to improve their lot. But I despise those whose preferred route to a better comparative standard of living is to drag others down. The Lisbon vote reaffirmed to me that Irish people are essentially capitalist socialists. They talk about social issues but mainly those that impact on their own pocket. It's not perfect but it could be worse.

The fear that this era is Ireland's Weimar republic has not gone away, but so long as Irish people talk socialist and vote otherwise, class conflict may have just been a mirage of press coverage of the Lisbon debate.