Is Ireland on the brink of class warfare?

MG

Until recently I always viewed Ireland as a relatively classless society. Ok, there was an elite and an underclass but the majority were in the middle. Class seemed to be a British thing that we had escaped.

A pollster I heard on the radio a fer days ago made the point that there was a distinct class divide between the Yes and No to Lisbon vote. (Upper/Middle in the yes, lower middle and working against).

While class warefare is overstating it, does anyone else think that recent events, especially Lisbon, have highlighted the class divides and increased the tensions?

OldJay

MG wrote: »

While class warefare is overstating it, does anyone else think that recent events, especially Lisbon, have highlighted the class divides and increased the tensions?

Nope.
I think people that don't understand the Treaty or can't be arsed to vote tomorrow hail from right across the spectrum.
Class doesn't determine stupidity after all.

Jumpy

Rather than class divide, it could be the gap between those intelligent enough/motivated enough to read/understand it and those who are of lower IQ/too lazy to bother/gullible to the no side bullcrap.

optocynic

MG wrote: »

Until recently I always viewed Ireland as a relatively classless society. Ok, there was an elite and an underclass but the majority were in the middle. Class seemed to be a British thing that we had escaped.

A pollster I heard on the radio a fer days ago made the point that there was a distinct class divide between the Yes and No to Lisbon vote. (Upper/Middle in the yes, lower middle and working against).

While class warefare is overstating it, does anyone else think that recent events, especially Lisbon, have highlighted the class divides and increased the tensions?

Well, the pollster is correct. From a demographics point of view.
People stupid enough to believe the kneejerk religious nonsense of the No side (Coir) are typically from the lower/working class.
Just look at the only real political party in the no camp!
Who is their narrow minded demographic?

Jumpy

Dont go overboard now, lower IQ does not mean stupid.

Amhran Nua

Classes imply some sort of entitlement by birth to priveleges above and beyond the norm, so we don't have them here, although the politicians are doing their level best to set one up for themselves. Its still relatively easy to move between wealth brackets here, or at least there are no official barriers to doing so. The only place class exists beyond that is in the heads of the likes of the SWP, still awaiting their red dawn.

Nope.

Some great daytime tv stops all out class war...why rip up cobblestones when you could watch Loose Women?

FTA69

What a pile of balls, some of the attitudes expressed here are nothing short of the absolute snobbery that sometimes perpetuates this site. Class and IQ have f*ck all to do with each other, the fact that many in this country are more economically priviliged than others around them is not as a result of intelligence, but as a result of various other political, cultural, economic and sociological factors.

AN,

Classes imply some sort of entitlement by birth to priveleges above and beyond the norm, so we don't have them here,

Nonsense. Class is simply the stratification of a given society as a rssult of various factors. Classes exist in every country. It is you who is looking at this issue through a myopic lens, the fact is that in every country and society you have the haves and the have-nots. Those who employ, and those who are employees etc. For you to suggest there is absolutely no difference between these two groups, or that they don't have diverging interests on many issues is naieve in the extreme.

Overheal

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Classes imply some sort of entitlement by birth to priveleges above and beyond the norm, so we don't have them here, although the politicians are doing their level best to set one up for themselves. Its still relatively easy to move between wealth brackets here, or at least there are no official barriers to doing so. The only place class exists beyond that is in the heads of the likes of the SWP, still awaiting their red dawn.

What sort of Fop Dandy Talk is thus?

Nobility is a thing of the past. Its not birthright anything. Its got everything to do with income and perceived intelligence. Not noble blood or fiefdom. silly.

You can't say it doesnt exist in Ireland. Like I have rednecks, you have affectionately-named knackers. Where we have ghetto trash you have scumbags - do you see where I'm going with this? Its the same damn thing, like Hoovers and Vacuums.

Jumpy wrote: »

Rather than class divide, it could be the gap between those intelligent enough/motivated enough to read/understand it and those who are of lower IQ/too lazy to bother/gullible to the no side bullcrap.

Here it is. Discrimination/Class Profiling that society will not soon be rid of.

although the politicians are doing their level best to set one up for themselves

That makes sense at least.

djpbarry

FTA69 wrote: »

Classes exist in every country. It is you who is looking at this issue through a myopic lens, the fact is that in every country and society you have the haves and the have-nots. Those who employ, and those who are employees etc.

Dividing people into ‘classes’ based loosely on whether they happen to be an employer or an employee is a very vague classification – it’s not all that difficult for an employee to become upwardly mobile and end up an employer. The existence of classes, in the conventional sense, implies social rigidity, which doesn’t really exist in Ireland, no matter how much Joe Higgins wants it to.

Overheal wrote: »

Like I have rednecks, you have affectionately-named knackers. Where we have ghetto trash you have scumbags - do you see where I'm going with this?

It’s not the same thing – scumbags are termed scumbags because of the manner in which they behave, not because of who they are (in my opinion at least).

optocynic

FTA69 wrote: »

What a pile of balls, some of the attitudes expressed here are nothing short of the absolute snobbery that sometimes perpetuates this site. Class and IQ have f*ck all to do with each other, the fact that many in this country are more economically priviliged than others around them is not as a result of intelligence, but as a result of various other political, cultural, economic and sociological factors.

AN,



Nonsense. Class is simply the stratification of a given society as a rssult of various factors. Classes exist in every country. It is you who is looking at this issue through a myopic lens, the fact is that in every country and society you have the haves and the have-nots. Those who employ, and those who are employees etc. For you to suggest there is absolutely no difference between these two groups, or that they don't have diverging interests on many issues is naieve in the extreme.

Are you claiming that the lower classes in this country cannot better themselves?
Cos that seems kinda arrogant!

Overheal

djpbarry wrote: »

It’s not the same thing – scumbags are termed scumbags because of the manner in which they behave, not because of who they are (in my opinion at least).

And rednecks are so-called because of the way they act. But its still classification.

optocynic

Overheal wrote: »

And rednecks are so-called because of the way they act. But its still classification.

I always thought Redneck was a slur against country folk who are deemed to be 'simple'.... like George Bush!

hallelujajordan

FTA69 wrote: »

What a pile of balls, some of the attitudes expressed here are nothing short of the absolute snobbery that sometimes perpetuates this site. Class and IQ have f*ck all to do with each other, the fact that many in this country are more economically priviliged than others around them is not as a result of intelligence, but as a result of various other political, cultural, economic and sociological factors.

Of course one should never generalise and of course there are people across the IQ spectum in all classes of society. . However, I don't think you can seperate economic privilege from intelligence. . Is it not fair to say that those who are more intelligent go further both in education and in the workplace and as a result become more economically privileged ?

To the OP's point, I think the 'class' war that is coming in Ireland is the public sector / private sector war that is being perpetuated by what I like to call "the bearded ones" . . There were some very red faces on Moday nights 'The Frontline'

Overheal

optocynic wrote: »

I always thought Redneck was a slur against country folk who are deemed to be 'simple'.... like George Bush!

No those are retards. For rednecks, watch The Blue Collar Comedy Tour.

optocynic

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Of course one should never generalise and of course there are people across the IQ spectum in all classes of society. . However, I don't think you can seperate economic privilege from intelligence. . Is it not fair to say that those who are more intelligent go further both in education and in the workplace and as a result become more economically privileged ?

To the OP's point, I think the 'class' war that is coming in Ireland is the public sector / private sector war that is being perpetuated by what I like to call "the bearded ones" . . There were some very red faces on Moday nights 'The Frontline'

I agree... how arrogant is it to assume that people from any 'class' in Ireland cannot rise up... or even fall down! We recently had relatively free third level education... anyone could get a degree... if they were intelligence/motivated enough...
It was the one thing this country excelled at... giving us all a decent chance at success... I know... I am a product of it..
There was no way my parents could have afforded full college fees for me... but, being my parents.. they would have probably worked 3 extra jobs to afford it..

optocynic

Overheal wrote: »

No those are retards. For rednecks, watch The Blue Collar Comedy Tour.

Yuck!!!... OK, now I understand...

potlatch

Class warfare isn't open conflict at times when things are really, really bad.

'Class warfare', according to those who subscribe to the theory, is a social struggle engendered by the dynamics of capitalism (now late-capitalism, which has led to more nuanced theories of the original theory).

Is Ireland on the verge of class warfare? You could say the essence of Irish politics is class conflict. It's our genesis. But this point would be controversial. It's an aspect of Irish history which has been obscured by concerns of nationalism and its descendent, 'competitiveness'.

Darragh29

Jumpy wrote: »

Rather than class divide, it could be the gap between those intelligent enough/motivated enough to read/understand it and those who are of lower IQ/too lazy to bother/gullible to the no side bullcrap.

It's not a "class" thing I think, the post I've quoted above points more clearly to where the devide is now in Ireland...

There are those who feel that the establishment do not have all the answers, who wish to ask questions and will not accept an answer that is cushioned and wrapped up in politically coded bullsh*t.

For example, many of us only two years ago questioned the sustainability of a property boom and the viability of an economy based on a runaway property boom and we were told to cop on, stop talking the place down and if we couldn't agree, then we should go off and commit suicide.

We questioned Lisbon I, and we were told, "sorry lads, wrong answer, let's try that again"...

We questioned NAMA, we were told, "sorry, you don't understand the problem here, get behind us because we are GOING FORWARD now, no time for discussion or debate, MOVING FORWARD, DO WHAT WE ARE TELLING YOU"...

We are now at Lisbon II and we are still asking questions and the arrogance and the intrasigence coming from the establishment is still the same if not worse than ever, "you don't understand this again, we just need you TO DO WHAT WE TELL YOU TO DO"...

It's like when I was in the army, "you're not here to think, you are here to do"....

Now you have one part of Irish society who are for all these things but don't stop to ask why we now need a NAMA and a Lisbon II...

Any of us who question the rationality, propriety or otherwise of things like NAMA, Lisbon II, out of control property booms, etc, are seen as being petty, uneducated, unmotivated, as having IQ problems, etc...

The same people who have this view of people like myself, don't seem to be prepared to sit down and engage with the rest of us to discuss questions like:

"Hang on a second, why do we need a NAMA???"

"Hang on a minute, what is the point in having two options on a ballot sheet when only one answer will be accepted, surely that is undemocratic???"

"Hang on there for a bit, are the same people who got us into this mess the same people who are telling us now that they have all the answers, like is that the same party that told people 2 years ago that they should commit suicide if they didn't believe in a property bubble that had turned nasty???"

Dob74

The class system in this country is out of control.
During the week I saw someone was given a one week sentence for eating a sandwich and drinking a can of coke in tesco, without paying.(in the evening echo)
He had 50 odd previous confictions but this is outrageous when you look at the likes of Roddy Molloy and Sean Fitzpatrick. White collar crimes pays.

Amhran Nua

Overheal wrote: »

Its not birthright anything.

Is it not.

FAMILIES IN THE OIREACHTAS

* Bertie Ahern (born 1951): FF TD Dublin Central 1977–
o his brother Noel Ahern (born 1944): FF TD Dublin North West 1992–
* Kit Ahern (1915–2007): FF Senator 1965–1977, FF TD Kerry North 1977–1981
o her cousin Ned O'Sullivan: FF Senator 2007–
* David Andrews (born 1936): FF TD Dún Laoghaire 1965–2002 (son of Todd Andrews, a FF founder)
o his son Barry Andrews (born 1967): FF TD Dún Laoghaire 2002–
o his brother Niall Andrews (1937–2006): FF TD Dublin South 1977–1987, MEP Dublin 1984–2004
+ Niall's son Chris Andrews (born 1964): FF TD Dublin South East 2007–
* Bob Aylward (1911–1974): FF Senator 1973–1974
o his son Liam Aylward (born 1952): FF TD Carlow-Kilkenny 1977–2007, MEP East 2004–
o his son Bobby Aylward (born 1955): FF TD Carlow-Kilkenny 2007–

B

* Anthony Barry (1901–1983): FG TD/Senator Cork Borough 1954–1965
o his son Peter Barry (born 1928): FG TD Cork City South East/Cork City/Cork South Central 1969–1997
+ Peter's daughter Deirdre Clune (born 1959): FG TD Cork South Central 1997–2002, 2007–
* Richard Barry (born 1919): FG TD Cork East/Cork North East 1953–1981
o his daughter Myra Barry (born 1957): FG TD Cork North East/Cork East 1979–1987
* John Beirne, Snr (1893–19??): CnaT TD Roscommon 1943–1948
o his son John Beirne, Jnr (died 1967): CnaT TD Roscommon 1948–1961
* Patrick Belton (1885–1945): FF TD Dublin County 1927, CnaG/FG TD Dublin North 1933–1937, FG TD Dublin County 1938–1943
o his son Richard Belton (1913–1974): FG Senator 1969–1973
+ his daughter Avril Doyle (born 1949): FG TD/Senator Wexford 1982–2002, MEP Leinster/East 1999–2009
o his son Jack Belton (died 1963): FG TD Dublin North East 1948–1963
o his son Paddy Belton (1926–1987): FG TD Dublin North East 1963–1977
o his nephew Luke Belton (1918–2006): FG TD/Senator Dublin North Central 1965–1987
o his nephew ? Louis Belton (born 1943): FG TD/Senator Longford-Westmeath/Longford-Roscommon 1989–2002
* Neal Blaney (1893–1948): FF TD Donegal 1927–1937, Donegal East 1937–1938 and 1943–1944, FF Senator 1938–1943
o Neal's son Neil Blaney (1922–1995): FF/IFF TD Donegal East/Donegal North East/Donegal 1948–1995, IFF MEP Connacht-Ulster 1979–1984, 1989–1994
o Neal's son Harry Blaney (born 1928): IFF TD Donegal North East 1997–2002
+ Harry's son Niall Blaney (born 1974): IFF/FF TD Donegal North East 2002–
* Harry Boland (1887–1922): SF TD South Roscommon 1918–1922
o his brother Gerald Boland (1885–1973): FF TD/Senator Roscommon 1926–1961
+ Gerald's son Kevin Boland (1917–2001): FF TD Dublin County 1957–1970
* Philip Brady (1898–1995): FF TD Dublin South Central 1951–1977
o his son Gerard Brady (born 1936): FF TD Dublin Rathmines West/Dublin South East 1977–1992
* Thomas Brennan (died 1953): FF TD Wicklow 1944–1954
o his son Paudge Brennan (1922–1998): FF TD Wicklow 1954–1973, 1981–1982, 1982–1987, Senator 1982[1]
* Martin Brennan (1903–1956): FF TD Sligo 1938–1948
o his nephew Matt Brennan (born 1936): FF TD Sligo-Leitrim 1982–2002
* Robert Briscoe (1894–1969): FF TD Dublin South/Dublin South West 1927–1965
o his son Ben Briscoe (born 1934): FF TD Dublin 1965–2002
* John Browne (born 1936): Senator 1983–1987, TD Carlow-Kilkenny 1989–2002
o his son Fergal Browne (born 1973): Senator 2002–2007
* Seán Browne (1916–1996): FF TD Wexford 1957–1961, 1969–1981, 1982
o his nephew John Browne (born 1948): TD Wexford 1982–
* Cathal Brugha (1874–1922): SF TD County Waterford 1918–1922
o his wife Caitlín Brugha (1879–1959): SF TD Waterford 1923–1927
o his son Ruairí Brugha (1917–2006): FF TD Dublin County South 1973–1977, MEP 1977–1979
+ his father-in-law Terence MacSwiney (1879–1920): SF TD Cork Mid 1918–1920
* John Bruton (born 1947): FG TD Meath 1969–2004
o his brother Richard Bruton (born 1953): FG Senator 1981–1982, TD Dublin North Central 1982–
* Patrick Burke (1904–1985): FF TD Dublin County/Dublin County North 1944–1973
o his son Ray Burke (born 1943): FF TD Dublin County North/Dublin North 1973–1997
* James Burke (died 1964): FG TD Roscommon 1951–1964
o his wife Joan Burke (born 1928): FG TD Roscommon 1964–1981
* John Butler (1891–1968): Lab TD Waterford-Tipperary East 1922–1923, Waterford 1923–1927, Senator 1938–1965
o his son Pierce Butler (1922–1999): FG Senator 1969–1983
* Alfred Byrne (1882–1956): IPP MP Dublin Harbour 1915–1918, Ind TD Dublin Mid/Dublin North 1922–1928, Ind Senator 1928–1931, Ind TD Dublin North/Dublin North East 1932–1956
o his son Alfred P. Byrne (1913–1952): Ind TD Dublin North West 1937–1944, 1948–1952
o his son Thomas Byrne (1917–1978): Ind TD Dublin North West 1952–1961
o his son Patrick Byrne (born 1925): Ind TD Dublin North East 1956–1957, FG TD Dublin North East 1957–1969

C

* Johnny Callanan (1910–1982): FF TD Clare-Galway South/Galway/Galway East 1973–1982
o his nephew Joe Callanan (born 1949): FF TD Galway East 2002–2007
* Phelim Calleary (1895–1974): FF TD Mayo North 1952–1969
o his son Seán Calleary (born 1931): FF TD Mayo 1973–1992
+ Seán's son Dara Calleary (born 1973): FF TD Mayo 2007–
* Donal Carey (born 1937): FG TD Clare 1982–2002
o His son Joe Carey (born 1975): FG TD Clare 2007–
* Erskine Childers (1870–1922): SF TD Wicklow 1919–1922
o his son Erskine H. Childers (1905–1974): FF TD Wicklow 1938–1973, President 1973–1974
+ his granddaughter Nessa Childers: Lab MEP East 2009–
* James Coburn (1889–1953): NLP/Ind/FG TD Louth 1927–1953
o his son George Coburn (1920–2009): FG TD Louth 1953–1961
* Harry Colley (1891–1972): FF TD Dublin North East 1944–1957
o his son George Colley (1925–1983): FF TD Dublin North East/Dublin North Central/Dublin Clontarf/Dublin Central 1961–1983
+ his granddaughter Anne Colley (born 1951): PD TD Dublin South 1987–1989
* James Collins (1900–1967): FF TD Limerick 1948–1967
o his son Gerry Collins (born 1938): FF TD Limerick 1967–1997, MEP Munster 1994–2004
o his son Michael Collins (born 1940): FF TD Limerick West 1997–2007
o his grandson Niall Collins (born 1973): FF TD Limerick West 2007–
* Michael Collins (1890–1922): SF TD Cork South 1918–1921, Cork Mid, North, South, South East and West 1921–1922
o his sister Margaret Collins-O'Driscoll (1878–1945): CnaG TD Dublin North 1923–1933
o his grandniece Nora Owen (born 1945): FG TD Dublin North 1981–2002
o his grandniece Mary Banotti (born 1939): FG MEP Dublin 1984–2004
* Johnny Connor (died 1955): CnaP TD Kerry North 1954–1955
o his daughter Kathleen O'Connor (born 1934): CnaP TD Kerry North 1956–1957
* Roddy Connolly (1901–1980): Lab TD Louth 1943–1944, 1948–1951, Senator 1975–1977 (Son of James Connolly)
o his sister Nora Connolly O'Brien (1893–1981): Senator 1957–1969
* Fintan Coogan, Snr (1910–1984): FG TD Galway West 1954–1977
o his son Fintan Coogan, Jnr (born 1944): FG TD Galway West 1982–1987, Senator 1997–2002
* Richard Corish (1889–1945): Lab TD Wexford 1921–1945
o his son Brendan Corish (1918–1990): Lab TD Wexford 1945–1982
* W. T. Cosgrave (1880–1965): CnaG/FG TD Carlow-Kilkenny 1919–1927, Cork Borough 1927–1944
o his brother Philip Cosgrave (died 1923): CnaG TD Dublin North West 1921–1923: Dublin South 1923
o his son Liam Cosgrave (born 1920): FG TD Dublin County 1943–1948, Dún Laoghaire 1948–1981
+ Liam's son Liam T. Cosgrave (born 1956): FG TD Dún Laoghaire 1981–1987, FG Senator 1989–2002
* John A. Costello (1881–1976): FG TD Dublin Townships 1933–1943, 1944–1969
o his son Declan Costello (born 1926): FG TD Dublin North West 1951–1969, Dublin South West 1973–1977
* Clement Coughlan (1942–1983): FF TD Donegal South West 1980–1983
o his brother Cathal Coughlan (1937–1986): FF TD Donegal South West 1983–1986
+ Cathal's daughter Mary Coughlan (born 1965): FF TD Donegal South West 1987–
* Hugh Coveney (1935–1998): FG TD Cork South Central 1981–1998
o his son Simon Coveney (born 1972): FG TD Cork South Central 1998–, MEP South 2004–2007
* Bernard Cowen (1932–1984): FF TD Laois-Offaly 1969–1984
o his son Brian Cowen (born 1960): FF TD Laois-Offaly 1984–
* Donal Creed (born 1924): FG TD Cork North West 1965–1989, MEP 1973–1977
o his son Michael Creed (born 1963): FG TD Cork North West 1989–2002, 2007–
* Patrick Crotty (1902–1970): FG TD Carlow-Kilkenny 1948–1969
o his son Kieran Crotty (born 1930): FG TD Carlow-Kilkenny 1969–1989
* Frederick Crowley (died 1945): FF TD Kerry South 1927–1945
o his wife Honor Crowley (1903–1966): FF TD Kerry South 1945–1966
* Flor Crowley (1934–1997): FF TD Cork Mid/Cork South West 1965–1982, Senator
o his son Brian Crowley (born 1964): FF Senator 1992–1994, MEP Munster/South 1994–

D

* Michael D'Arcy (born 1934): FG TD Wexford 1977–1987, 1989–1992, 1997–2002
o his son Michael W. D'Arcy (born 1970): FG TD Wexford 2007–
* Michael Davern (1900–1973): FF TD Tipperary South 1948–1965
o his son Don Davern (1935–1968): FF TD Tipperary South 1965–1968
o his son Noel Davern (born 1945): FF TD Tipperary South 1969–1981, 1987–2007, MEP Munster 1979–1984
* Dan Desmond (1913–1964): Lab TD Cork South East, 1948–1964
o his wife Eileen Desmond (1932–2005): Lab TD Cork South Central 1965–1987, MEP Munster 1979–1981
* Éamon de Valera (1882–1975): FF TD Clare 1919–1959, President 1959–1973, (also FF MP Parliament of Northern Ireland 1921–1937)
o his son Vivion de Valera (1910–1982): FF TD Dublin North West 1944–1981
o his granddaughter Síle de Valera (born 1954): FF TD Dublin County Mid 1977–1981, Clare 1987–2007, MEP Dublin 1979–1984
o his grandson Éamon Ó Cuív (born 1950): FF Senator 1989–1992, FF TD Galway West 1992–
* Austin Deasy (born 1936): FG TD Waterford 1977–2002
o his son John Deasy (born 1967): FG TD Waterford 2002–
* James Devins (1873–1922): SF TD Sligo-Mayo East 1921–1922
o his grandson Jimmy Devins[2] (born 1948): FF TD Sligo-Leitrim 2002–
* John Dillon (1851–1927): IPP MP East Mayo 1880–1918
o his son James Dillon (1902–1986): NCP TD Donegal 1932–1937, FG TD Monaghan 1937–1969
* John Dinneen (1867–1942): FP TD Cork East 1922–1927
o his nephew Liam Ahern (1916–1974): FF Senator 1957–1973, FF TD Cork North East 1973–1974
+ Liam's son Michael Ahern (born 1949): FF TD Cork East 1982–
* Sir Maurice Dockrell (1850–1929): IUA MP Dublin Rathmines 1918–1922
o Maurice's son Henry Morgan Dockrell (1880–1955): FG TD Dublin County 1932–1948
+ Henry's son Maurice E. Dockrell (1908–1986): FG TD Dublin South/Dublin South Central/Dublin Central 1943–1977
+ Henry's son Percy Dockrell (1914–1979): FG TD Dún Laoghaire 1951–1957, 1961–1977
* Michael Donnellan (1900–1964): CnaT TD Galway 1938–1964
o his son John Donnellan (born 1937): FG TD Galway 1964–1989

E

* Tom Enright (born 1940): FG TD Laois-Offaly 1969–1992, 1997–2002, FG Senator 1993–1997
o his daughter Olwyn Enright (born 1974): FG TD Laois-Offaly 2002–
+ her husband Joe McHugh (born 1971): FG Senator 2002–2007, FG TD Donegal North East 2007–
* Sir Thomas Esmonde (1862–1935): IPP MP 1885–1918, Ind Senator 1922–1934
o his cousin John Joseph Esmonde (1862–1915) IPP MP North Tipperary 1910–1915
o Thomas's son Sir Osmond Esmonde (1896–1936): CnaG TD Wexford 1923–1936
o John Joseph's son Sir John Lymbrick Esmonde (1893–1958): FG TD Wexford 1937–1951
o John Lymbrick's brother Sir Anthony Esmonde (1899–1981): FG TD Wexford 1951–1973
o Anthony's son Sir John Grattan Esmonde (1928–1987): FG TD Wexford 1973–1977
* James Everett (1894–1967): Lab TD Wicklow 1923–1967
o his nephew Liam Kavanagh (born 1935): Lab TD Wicklow 1969–1997, MEP Leinster 1973–1981

F

* Alexis FitzGerald, Snr (1916–1985): FG Senator 1969–1981
o his nephew Alexis FitzGerald, Jnr (born 1945): FG Senator 1981–1982, 1982–1997, FG TD Dublin South East 1982
o Alexis Jnr's wife Mary Flaherty (born 1953): FG TD Dublin North West 1981–1997
* Desmond FitzGerald (1888–1947): CnaG TD 1919–1937, Senator 1938–1943
o his son Garret FitzGerald (born 1926): FG Senator 1965–1969, FG TD Dublin South East 1969–1992
o Garret's cousin James Dooge (born 1922): FG Senator 1969–1987
o Garret's daughter-in-law Eithne FitzGerald (born 1950): Lab TD Dublin South 1992–1997
* Oliver J. Flanagan (1920–1987): FG TD Laois-Offaly 1943–1987
o his son Charles Flanagan (born 1956): FG TD Laois-Offaly 1987–2002, 2007–
* Pádraig Flynn (born 1939): FF TD Mayo West 1977–1993
o his daughter Beverley Flynn (born 1966): FF/Ind TD Mayo 1997–
* Johnny Fox (1948–1995): Ind TD Wicklow 1992–1995
o his daughter, Mildred Fox (born 1971): Ind TD Wicklow 1995–2007

G

* John Galvin (1907–1963): FF TD Cork Borough 1956–1964
o his wife Sheila Galvin (1914–1983): FF TD Cork Borough 1964–1965
* Johnny Geoghegan (1913–1975): FF TD Galway West 1954–1975
o his daughter Máire Geoghegan-Quinn (born 1950): FF TD Galway West 1975–1997
* Seán Gibbons (1883–1952): CnaG TD Carlow-Kilkenny 1923–1924, FF TD Carlow-Kilkenny 1932–1937, FF Senator 1938–1951
o his nephew Jim Gibbons (1924–1997): FF TD Carlow-Kilkenny 1957–1981, 1982, MEP 1973–1977
+ Jim's son Martin Gibbons (born 1953): PD TD Carlow-Kilkenny 1987–1989
+ Jim's son Jim Gibbons, Jnr (born 1954): PD Senator 1997–2002
* T. P. Gill (1858–1931): IPP/INF MP South Louth 1885–1892
o his nephew Tomás Mac Giolla (born 1924): WP TD Dublin West 1982–1992
* Henry Guinness (1858–1945): Ind Senator 1922–1923
o his cousin Benjamin Guinness (1937–1992): FG Senator 1973–1977

H

* Sean Hales (died 1922): SF TD Cork Mid, North, South, South East and West 1921–1922
o his brother Tom Hales (1892–1966): FF TD Cork West 1933–1937
* Des Hanafin (born 1930): FF Senator 1965–1993, 1997–2002
o his daughter Mary Hanafin (born 1959): FF TD Dún Laoghaire 1997–
o his son John Gerard Hanafin (born 1960): FF Senator 2002–
* Haughey, see Lemass
* Sir William Bernard Hickie (1865–1950): Senator 1925–1936
o his grandnephew Maurice O'Connell (born 1936): Senator 1981–1983
* Michael Hilliard (1903–1982): FF TD Meath-Westmeath 1943–1948, Meath 1948–1973, MEP 1973
o his son Colm Hilliard (1936–2002): FF TD Meath 1982–1997
* T. V. Honan (died 1954): FF Senator 1934–1936, 1938–1954
o his son Dermot Honan (died 1986): FF Senator 1965–1973
+ Dermot's wife Tras Honan (born 1930): FF Senator 1977–1992
# Tras's sister Carrie Acheson (born 1934): FF TD Tipperary South 1981–Feb. 1982
* Ralph Howard (1877–1946): Ind Senator 1922–1928
o his daughter-in-law Eleanor Butler (1915–1997): Lab Senator 1948–1951

K

* William Kenneally (died 1964): FF TD Waterford 1952–1961
o his son Billy Kenneally (1925–2009): FF TD Waterford 1965–1982, Senator 1982–1983
+ his grandson Brendan Kenneally (born 1955): FF TD Waterford 1989–2002, 2007–, Senator 2002–2007
* Paddy Keaveney (1929–1995): IFF TD Donegal North East 1976–1977
o his daughter Cecilia Keaveney (born 1968): FF TD Donegal North East 1996–2007, FF Senator 2007–
* Henry Kenny (1913–1975): FG TD Mayo South 1954–1969, Mayo West 1969–1975
o his son Enda Kenny (born 1951): FG TD Mayo West 1975–1997, Mayo 1997–
* David Kent (died 1930): SF TD Cork East/Cork East and North East 1918–1927
o his brother William Kent: FF TD Cork East 1927–1932, NCP/FG TD Cork East 1933–1937
* Mark Killilea, Snr (1896–1970): FF TD Galway/Galway East/Galway North 1927–1932, 1933–1961, FF Senator 1961–1969
o his son Mark Killilea, Jnr (born 1939): FF TD 1977–1982, FF Senator 1969–1977, 1982–1987, MEP 1987–1999
* Michael F. Kitt (1914–1974): FF TD 1948–1951, 1957–1975
o Michael F.'s son Michael P. Kitt (born 1950): FF TD Galway North East 1973–1977, Galway East 1981–2002, 2007–, FF Senator 1977–1981, 2002–2007
o Michael F.'s son Tom Kitt (born 1952): FF TD 1987–
o Michael F.'s daughter Áine Brady (born 1954):[3] FF TD Kildare North 2007–
+ her husband Gerry Brady (born 1948): FF TD Kildare 1982

L

* James Larkin (1874–1947): IWL TD Dublin North 1927, Ind TD Dublin North East 1937–1938, Lab TD Dublin North East 1943–1944
o his son James Larkin, Jnr (1904–1969): Lab TD Dublin South 1943–1948, Dublin South Central 1948–1954
* Seán Lemass (1899–1971): FF TD/Taoiseach Dublin 1924–1969
o his son Noel Lemass, Jnr (1929–1976): FF TD Dublin South West 1956–1976
+ Noel's wife Eileen Lemass (born 1932): FF TD Dublin South West 1977–1987, MEP Dublin 1984–1989
o his son-in-law Charles Haughey (1925–2006): FF TD/Taoiseach Dublin North East/Dublin (Artane)/Dublin North Central 1957–1992
+ his son Seán Haughey (born 1961): FF Senator 1989–1992, FF TD Dublin North Central 1992–
* Patrick Lenihan (1902–1970): FF TD 1965–1970
o his son Brian Lenihan (1930–1995): FF Senator 1957–1961, 1973–1977, FF TD Roscommon 1961–1969, Roscommon-Leitrim 1969–1973, Dublin West 1977–1997, MEP 1973–1977
+ Brian's son Brian Lenihan, Jnr (born 1959): FF Dublin West 1996–
+ Brian's son Conor Lenihan (born 1963): FF TD Dublin South West 1997–
o his daughter Mary O'Rourke (born 1937): FF Senator 1981–1982, 2002–2007, FF TD Longford-Westmeath 1982–1997, 2007–, Westmeath 1997–2002
* Jimmy Leonard (born 1927): FF TD Cavan-Monaghan 1973–1981, Feb 1982–1997, Senator 1981–1982
o his daughter Ann Leonard (born 1969): FF Senator 1997–2002
* Patrick Little (1884–1963): FF TD Waterford 1927–1954
o his grandnephew Ciarán Cuffe (born 1963): GP TD Dún Laoghaire 2002–
* James B. Lynch (died 1954): FF TD Dublin South 1932–1948 Senator 1951–1954
o his wife Celia Lynch (1908–1989): FF TD Dublin South Central, Dublin North Central 1954–1977
* Kathleen Lynch (born 1953): DL/Lab TD Cork North Central 1994–1997, 2002–
o her brother-in-law Ciarán Lynch (born 1964): Lab TD Cork South Central 2007–

M

* Timothy McAuliffe (1909–1985): Lab Senator 1961–1969, 1973–1983
o his daughter Helena McAuliffe-Ennis (born 1951): Lab (then PD) Senator 1983–1987
* Joseph MacBride (died 1938): SF TD Mayo West 1919–1921, Mayo North and West 1921–1923, CnaG TD Mayo South 1923–1927
o his nephew Seán MacBride (1904–1988): CnaP TD Dublin County 1947–1948, Dublin South-West 1948–1957
* Seán MacEntee (1889–1984): SF TD Monaghan 1919–1922, FF TD Dublin County/Townships/South East 1927–1969
o his son-in-law Conor Cruise O'Brien (1917–2008): Lab TD Dublin North East 1969–1977, Senator 1977–1979, MEP 1973
o Conor's cousin Owen Sheehy-Skeffington (1901–1970): Ind Senator 1954–1957, 1965–1970
* Eoin MacNeill (1867–1945): SF/CnaG TD National University of Ireland 1919–1927
o his son-in-law Michael Tierney (1894–1975): CnaG TD Mayo North 1925–1927, NUI 1927–1932, Senator 1938–1944
o his grandson Michael McDowell (born 1951): PD TD Dublin South East 1987–1989, 1992–1997, 2002–2007
* Tom McEllistrim (1894–1973): FF TD Kerry/Kerry North 1923–1969
o his son Tom McEllistrim (1932–2000): FF TD Kerry North 1969–1987, Senator 1987–1989, 1989–1992
+ his grandson Tom McEllistrim (born 1968): FF TD Kerry North 2002–
* Ray MacSharry (born 1938): FF TD Sligo-Leitrim 1969–1988, MEP Connacht-Ulster 1984–1989
o his son Marc MacSharry (born 1973): FF Senator 2002–
* Terence MacSwiney (1879–1920): SF TD Cork Mid 1919–1920
o his sister Mary MacSwiney (1872–1942): SF TD Cork Borough 1921–1927
o his brother Seán MacSwiney: SF TD Cork Mid, North, South, South East and West 1921–1922
o his son-in-law Ruari Brugha (1917–2006): FF TD Dublin County South 1973–1977
* Tadhg Manley (1893–1976): FG TD Cork South 1954–1961
o his nephew Liam Burke (1928–2005): FG TD Cork City 1969–1977, 1979–1981, TD Cork North Central 1981–1989, 1992–2002
* John Mannion, Snr (1907–1978): FG TD Galway West 1951–1954, Senator 1954–1957, 1961–1969
o his son John Mannion, Jnr (1944–2006): FG TD Galway West 1977–1981, Senator 1969–1977, 1981–1983
* Con Meaney (died 1970): FF TD Cork North 1937–1943, Cork Mid 1961–1965
o his son Thomas Meaney (born 1931): FF TD Cork Mid/Cork North West 1961–1982
* Jim Mitchell (1946–2002): FG TD Dublin Ballyfermot/Dublin West/Dublin Central 1977–2002
o his brother Gay Mitchell (born 1951): FG TD Dublin South Central 1981–2007, MEP Dublin 2004–
* Joe Mooney (died 1988): FF Senator 1961–1965
o his son Paschal Mooney (born 1947): FF Senator 1987–2007
* Michael Moynihan (1917–2001): Lab TD Kerry South 1981–1992
o his daughter Breeda Moynihan-Cronin (born 1953): Lab TD Kerry South 1992–2007
* Michael Pat Murphy (1919–2000): Lab TD Cork South West 1951–1981
o his son-in-law John O'Donoghue (born 1956): FF TD Kerry South 1987–

N

* Liam Naughten (1944–1996): FG Senator 1981–1982, 1989–1996, FG TD Roscommon 1982–1989
o his son Denis Naughten (born 1973): FG Senator 1997, FG TD Longford-Roscommon 1997–2007 Roscommon-South Leitrim 2007–
* Tom Nolan: (1921–1992): FF TD Carlow-Kilkenny 1965–1982, MEP 1973–1979
o his son M. J. Nolan (born 1951): FF TD Carlow-Kilkenny 1982–
* William Norton: (1900–1963): Lab TD Dublin County 1923–1927, Kildare / Carlow-Kildare / Kildare 1932–1963
o his son Patrick Norton (born 1928): Lab TD Kildare 1965–1969, Senator 1969–1973

O

* Richard O'Connell (1892–1964): CnaG TD Limerick 1923–1932
o his nephew Tom O'Donnell (born 1926): FG TD Limerick East 1961–1987, MEP Munster 1979–1989
+ Tom's nephew Kieran O'Donnell (born 1963): FG TD Limerick East 2007–
* O'Connor – see Connor above
* Kevin O'Higgins (1892–1927): FG TD Laois-Offaly 1918–1927 (nephew of Tim Healy)
o his daughter Una O'Higgins O'Malley's son Chris O'Malley (born 1959): FG MEP Munster 1986–1989
o his brother Thomas F. O'Higgins (died 1953): FG TD Dublin, Laois-Offaly, Cork 1929–1953
+ Thomas's son Tom O'Higgins (1916–2003): FG TD Laois-Offaly, 1943–1973
+ Thomas's son Michael O'Higgins (1917–2005): FG TD Dublin South West, Wicklow 1948–1969
# Michael's wife Brigid Hogan O'Higgins (born 1932): FG TD Galway 1957–1977
* her father Patrick Hogan (1891–1936): FG TD Galway 1921–1936
* Donogh O'Malley (1921–1968): FF TD Limerick East 1954–1968
o his nephew Desmond O'Malley (born 1939): FF/PD TD Limerick East 1968–2002
+ Desmond's daughter Fiona O'Malley (born 1968): PD TD Dún Laoghaire 2002–2007, Senator 2007–
+ Desmond's cousin Patrick O'Malley (born 1943): PD TD Dublin West 1987–1989
+ Desmond's first cousin Tim O'Malley (born 1944): PD TD Limerick East 2002–2007
* Timothy O'Sullivan (1899–1971): FF TD Cork West 1937–1954, Senator 1957–1959
o his niece[4] Peggy Farrell (1920–2003): FF Senator 1969–1973

P

* James Pattison (1886–1963): Lab TD Carlow-Kilkenny 1933–1957
o his son Séamus Pattison (born 1936): Lab TD Carlow-Kilkenny 1961–2007, MEP Leinster 1981–1984
* Margaret Pearse (1857–1932): SF TD Dublin County 1921–1922 (mother of Patrick Pearse)
o her daughter Margaret Mary Pearse (1878–1968): FF TD Dublin County 1932–1937, Senator 1938–1968.
* Paddy Power (born 1928): FF TD Kildare 1969–1989, MEP 1977–1979
o his son Seán Power (born 1960): FF TD Kildare/Kildare South 1989–

Q

* Ruairi Quinn (born 1946): Lab TD/Senator Dublin South East 1977–1981, 1982–
o his first cousin Feargal Quinn (born 1936): Ind Senator 1993–

R

* William Redmond (1886–1932): IPP/NLP/CnaG TD Waterford 1918–1932 (son of John Redmond)
o his wife Bridget Redmond (1905–1952): CnaG TD Waterford 1932–1952
* Patrick Reynolds (1887–1932): CnaG TD Leitrim-Sligo 1927–1932
o his wife Mary Reynolds (1889–1974): FG TD Leitrim-Sligo 1932–1961
+ Their son Patrick J. Reynolds (1920–2003): FG TD Roscommon 1961–1969, Roscommon-Leitrim 1973–1977, Senator 1969–1973, 1977–1987 (Cathaoirleach 1983–1987)
# Patrick J.'s son Gerry Reynolds (born 1961): FG TD Sligo-Leitrim 1989–1992 and 1997–2002, Senator 1987–1989 and 1993–1997
* Eamon Rice (1873–1937): FF TD Monaghan 1932–1937
o his wife Bridget Rice (1885–1967): FF TD Monaghan 1938–1954
* James Ryan (1891–1970): SF TD 1918–1922, Republican TD 1923–1926, FF TD 1926–1965
o his son Eoin Ryan, Snr (1920–2001): FF Senator 1957–1987
+ his grandson Eoin Ryan, Jnr (born 1953): FF Senator, TD Dublin South East 1992–2007, MEP Dublin 2004–2009
o his brother-in-law Seán T. O'Kelly (1882–1966): SF / Republican TD 1918–1932, FF Minister 1932–1945, 2nd President 1945–1959
o his brother-in-law Richard Mulcahy (1886–1971): SF / CnaG / FG TD, Minister and Senator 1918–1961
* Martin Ryan (1900–1943): FF TD Tipperary 1933–1943
o his wife Mary Ryan (1898–1981): FF TD Tipperary 1948–1961
* Seán Ryan (born 1943): Lab TD Dublin North 1989–1997, 1998–2007
o his brother Brendan Ryan: Lab Senator 2007–

S

* Dan Spring (1910–1988): Lab TD Kerry North 1943–1981
o his son Dick Spring (born 1950): Lab TD Kerry North 1981–2002
* Joe Sherlock (1935–2007): SFWP TD Cork East 1981–1982, WP TD 1987–1992, Lab TD 2002–2007, Seanad 1993–1997
o his son Seán Sherlock (born 1972): Lab TD Cork East 2007–

T

* Frank Taylor (1914–1989): FG TD Clare 1969–1981
o his daughter Madeleine Taylor-Quinn (born 1951): FG TD Clare 1981–1982, 1982–1992, FG Senator 1982, 1993–2002
* Godfrey Timmins (1927–2001): FG TD Wicklow 1965–1997
o his son Billy Timmins (born 1959): FG TD Wicklow 1997–

U

* Pat Upton (1944–1999): Lab Senator 1989–1992, Lab TD Dublin South Central 1992–1999
o his sister Mary Upton (born 1946): Lab TD Dublin South Central 1999–

W

* John Wilson (1923–2007): FF TD Cavan 1973–1977, Cavan-Monaghan 1977–1992
o his nephew Diarmuid Wilson (born 1965): FF Senator 2002–

Y

* William Butler Yeats (1865–1939): Ind Senator 1922–1928
o his son Michael Yeats (1921–2007): FF Senator 1951–1977, MEP 1973–1979

pigeonbutler

As for the old chestnut of political dynasties as posted above, are you suggesting we should prevent the electorate from voting for their preferred candidate? That it would be more "democratic" to ban certain citizens from seeking political office solely by virtue of who ther father was?
The reality is political dynasties exist because the people elect them. Without winning votes they wouldn't get elected.

As for the appropriateness or otherwise of politicians sons and daughters becoming politicians, it's something that happens in every profession. Look around at guards, soldiers, doctors, solicitors, nurses, carpenters, plumbers and see how many of them followed a family member into the business.

Tbh I think the electorate do sometimes value name over ability when voting and that's a pity but how do we avoid that without impinging on peoples free choice?

Amhran Nua

pigeonbutler wrote: »

As for the old chestnut of political dynasties as posted above, are you suggesting we should prevent the electorate from voting for their preferred candidate?

Not at all. Merely ensure they run in a different constituency and probably for a different party. If they have the merit, people will vote for them anyway won't they?

pigeonbutler wrote: »

Look around at guards, soldiers, doctors, solicitors, nurses, carpenters, plumbers and see how many of them followed a family member into the business.

Every single one of those requires a strenuous independent training and examination schedule, taking years to complete, and if they fail, as many do, they don't get to follow in the "family business". Their family connections have zero bearing on them passing these exams. You don't need any relevant professional qualifications to get into politics, as the shower of politicians we have in Ireland superbly illustrate.

pigeonbutler wrote: »

Tbh I think the electorate do sometimes value name over ability when voting and that's a pity but how do we avoid that without impinging on peoples free choice?

Let them choose, but remove unfair advantages from candidates and level the playing field.

optocynic

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Let them choose, but remove unfair advantages from candidates and level the playing field.

How can we have a level playing field when the Irish electorate are as stupid as they are??..
Actually... does that make it a level playing field by default?

Amhran Nua

optocynic wrote: »

How can we have a level playing field when the Irish electorate are as stupid as they are??..

The low turnout for elections gives the lie to this statement, the Irish electorate are a lot more informed than most people give them credit for, which is why a lot of them didn't vote.

OldJay

Amhran Nua wrote: »

The low turnout for elections gives the lie to this statement, the Irish electorate are a lot more informed than most people give them credit for, which is why a lot of them didn't vote.

Try lazy, apathetic and want everything for nothing (with least effort and bother possible)

optocynic

Justind wrote: »

Try lazy, apathetic and want everything for nothing (with least effort and bother possible)

Now... what sector union does that remind you of?

dmfod

the existence of a class divide re lisbon is obvious and has been confirmed by extensive research by polling companies after the last referendum. working class constituencies such as DSW gave a no vote of 65%+, with similar figures in reverse for DL the richest constituency in the state.

you only have to listen to any vox pop to confirm this - Dort accent = yes voter, Dub accent = No voter in the vast majority of cases

OldJay

optocynic wrote: »

Now... what sector union does that remind you of?

No-one in particular. Just the typical Irish voter in my eyes.
Those that don't vote get the government they deserve.

Lockstep

I'm lower-middle and am pro-Lisbon.

I really don't think this is a class issue.

optocynic

Justind wrote: »

No-one in particular. Just the typical Irish voter in my eyes.
Those that don't vote get the government they deserve.

Come on... don't be obtuse!
You know the answer... what union expects annual increments, with no reflection of effort or productivity... i.e. a deal that benefits the lazy, apathetic workers who expect something for nothing?