Is Ireland on the brink of class warfare?

hallelujajordan

Darragh29 wrote: »

It's not a "class" thing I think, the post I've quoted above points more clearly to where the devide is now in Ireland...

There are those who feel that the establishment do not have all the answers, who wish to ask questions and will not accept an answer that is cushioned and wrapped up in politically coded bullsh*t.

For example, many of us only two years ago questioned the sustainability of a property boom and the viability of an economy based on a runaway property boom and we were told to cop on, stop talking the place down and if we couldn't agree, then we should go off and commit suicide.

We questioned Lisbon I, and we were told, "sorry lads, wrong answer, let's try that again"...

We questioned NAMA, we were told, "sorry, you don't understand the problem here, get behind us because we are GOING FORWARD now, no time for discussion or debate, MOVING FORWARD, DO WHAT WE ARE TELLING YOU"...

We are now at Lisbon II and we are still asking questions and the arrogance and the intrasigence coming from the establishment is still the same if not worse than ever, "you don't understand this again, we just need you TO DO WHAT WE TELL YOU TO DO"...

It's like when I was in the army, "you're not here to think, you are here to do"....

Now you have one part of Irish society who are for all these things but don't stop to ask why we now need a NAMA and a Lisbon II...

Any of us who question the rationality, propriety or otherwise of things like NAMA, Lisbon II, out of control property booms, etc, are seen as being petty, uneducated, unmotivated, as having IQ problems, etc...

The same people who have this view of people like myself, don't seem to be prepared to sit down and engage with the rest of us to discuss questions like:

"Hang on a second, why do we need a NAMA???"

"Hang on a minute, what is the point in having two options on a ballot sheet when only one answer will be accepted, surely that is undemocratic???"

"Hang on there for a bit, are the same people who got us into this mess the same people who are telling us now that they have all the answers, like is that the same party that told people 2 years ago that they should commit suicide if they didn't believe in a property bubble that had turned nasty???"

The absolute essence of a democracy is the right to ask questions, listen to the answer, make changes and ask questions again ..

The government listened to the electorate after Lisbon I . . They heard a lot of concerns (that were actually based on nonsense propaganda from the No side imo). They sought to react to these concerns by seeking legal guarantees from the European Union and they put the question back to the electorate again. This is democracy in action and anyone who argues it isn't just doesn't understand democracy. To deprive the government of the right to ask the question again would be undemocratic.

Regarding NAMA, the government have implemented this solution because they believe this is the only way to bring about economic recovery. Clearly economists are divided on the matter but to suggest that there has been no rational debate and that those who don't agree with NAMA have been dismissed is just not accurate. Eventually, NAMA, the December budget and finance bill will be decided in Dail Eireann by our elected representatives. Not a class divide, but rather democracy in action. .

optocynic

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I'm lower-middle and am pro-Lisbon.

I really don't think this is a class issue.

I agree... but, the demographics show that the people still in the no camp are predominantly from the Lower/working class..

If people are stupid enough to believe the religous nonsense of Dana... I don't care what class they are in... they are just bat-sh!t stupid!

hallelujajordan

dmfod wrote: »

the existence of a class divide re lisbon is obvious and has been confirmed by extensive research by polling companies after the last referendum. working class constituencies such as DSW gave a no vote of 65%+, with similar figures in reverse for DL the richest constituency in the state.

you only have to listen to any vox pop to confirm this - Dort accent = yes voter, Dub accent = No voter in the vast majority of cases

Some would argue (not me) that the person with the DORT accent is better educated and therefore more capable of understanding the Lisbon treaty and making their own mind up whereas the person with the Dub accent are more likely to be swayed by the likes of Joe Higgins and his Shinner comrades. . Not a class divide at all . .

Would love to see some honest analysis of Yes v No, stratified by IQ . . .


Personally, I speak with a Dub accent and will be voting YES . .

OldJay

optocynic wrote: »

Come on... don't be obtuse!
You know the answer... what union expects annual increments, with no reflection of effort or productivity... i.e. a deal that benefits the lazy, apathetic workers who expect something for nothing?

Not being obtuse. I'm talking about apathy in the electorate.
I'm not really bothered about any union except rugby union.

optocynic

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Personally, I speak with a Dub accent and will be voting YES . .

Me too... I'm from Finglas... and people lock their front doors when they hear my accent... but I'm voting yes!!

biko

Jumpy wrote: »

Rather than class divide, it could be the gap between those intelligent enough/motivated enough to read/understand it and those who are of lower IQ/too lazy to bother/gullible to the no side bullcrap.

Don't vote No Jumpy

dmfod

optocynic wrote: »

Me too... I'm from Finglas... and people lock their front doors when they hear my accent... but I'm voting yes!!

a classic case of false consciousness (joking!)

seriously though i'm pretty appalled to hear people say those with dort accents are more intelligent - i mean come on! that's the worst kind of ignorant snobbery

people with dort accents and people with dub accents are likely to have different interests i.e. something that benefits IBEC is more likely to benefit someone with a dort accent than someone with a dub accent or to put it another way those in favour of free competition including on wages tend to be better off, and those concerned about workers rights and low wages tend to be low paid workers who due to the existence of class stratification in Ireland tend have dub accents more often than dort accents

just because some from either group will vote against their class interests does not disprove the general rule as many people fall for the lie of national or general interest, which really means the interests of IBEC, the mainstream political parties and the rich

optocynic

dmfod wrote: »

a classic case of false consciousness (joking!)

seriously though i'm pretty appalled to hear people say those with dort accents are more intelligent - i mean come on! that's the worst kind of ignorant snobbery

people with dort accents and people with dub accents are likely to have different interests i.e. something that benefits IBEC is more likely to benefit someone with a dort accent than someone with a dub accent or to put it another way those in favour of free competition including on wages tend to be better off, and those concerned about workers rights and low wages tend to be low paid workers who due to the existence of class stratification in Ireland tend have dub accents more often than dort accents

just because some from either group will vote against their class interests does not disprove the general rule as many people fall for the lie of national or general interest, which really means the interests of IBEC, the mainstream political parties and the rich

Hey... I'm currently classified as rich... I was simply saying I come from Finglas, and have a dub accent...
I availed of the excellent prospects that were once available in this country... and moved up the classes through education and effort..

So, you.. I do support the free market.. cos it helped me to succeed..

Socialism is the politics of the lazy!

Justind

Justind wrote: »

I'm not really bothered about any union except rugby union.

Ah.

Middle class.

You'll get it from both sides...

hallelujajordan

dmfod wrote: »

a classic case of false consciousness (joking!)

seriously though i'm pretty appalled to hear people say those with dort accents are more intelligent - i mean come on! that's the worst kind of ignorant snobbery

people with dort accents and people with dub accents are likely to have different interests i.e. something that benefits IBEC is more likely to benefit someone with a dort accent than someone with a dub accent or to put it another way those in favour of free competition including on wages tend to be better off, and those concerned about workers rights and low wages tend to be low paid workers who due to the existence of class stratification in Ireland tend have dub accents more often than dort accents

just because some from either group will vote against their class interests does not disprove the general rule as many people fall for the lie of national or general interest, which really means the interests of IBEC, the mainstream political parties and the rich

Nobody said that people with Dort accents are more intelligent. . I said that they were likely to be better educated which unfortunately is true. It's not snobbery,its just an observation, one that I feel empowered to make as a fairly educated Yes voter with a Dub accent.

In any case, the issue is not really about accents. . . Its about a class divide that I believe is more about economic wellbeing than class per se . . I believe that those who are better off will vote Yes for Lisbon and the less well off will vote No . . .

I also believe as stated earlier, that you cannot separate economic wellbeing from intelligence, and understanding.

I personally cannot understand how anybody could listen to all of the Lisbon argument and logically conclude that they should vote No.

hallelujajordan

optocynic wrote: »

.

Socialism is the politics of the lazy!

And the bearded !

hallelujajordan

hallelujajordan wrote: »

And the bearded !

And the dungerees wearers!

Lockstep

optocynic wrote: »

Hey... I'm currently classified as rich... I was simply saying I come from Finglas, and have a dub accent...
I availed of the excellent prospects that were once available in this country... and moved up the classes through education and effort..

So, you.. I do support the free market.. cos it helped me to succeed..

Socialism is the politics of the lazy!

To be fair; Finglas is hardly a massive sink estate; there are quite a few middle class areas there too (few of my friends come from there)
I remember you mentioning in another thread that your family were middle class so it's hardly a case of defying all the odds.

optocynic

kickoutthejams wrote: »

To be fair; Finglas is hardly a massive sink estate; there are quite a few middle class areas there too (few of my friends come from there)
I remember you mentioning in another thread that your family were middle class so it's hardly a case of defying all the odds.

I said my family were 'middle class at best'.. that's the quote!
And my parents started off as lower class... but they both worked hard, and did extra education..

My point is, there is nothing to stop people in this nation moving up...

Lockstep

optocynic wrote: »

I said my family were 'middle class at best'.. that's the quote!
And my parents started off as lower class... but they both worked hard, and did extra education..

My point is, there is nothing to stop people in this nation moving up...

Indeed, but if I remember rightly, you grew up in a lower middle class household?

optocynic

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Indeed, but if I remember rightly, you grew up in a lower middle class household?

Indeed I did.

brianthebard

optocynic wrote: »

Hey... I'm currently classified as rich... I was simply saying I come from Finglas, and have a dub accent...
I availed of the excellent prospects that were once available in this country... and moved up the classes through education and effort..

So, you.. I do support the free market.. cos it helped me to succeed..

Socialism is the politics of the lazy!

You know free university education was a labour policy, ie socialist? Thank god those wicked socialists who gave you your chance aren't in power!

SLUSK

brianthebard wrote: »

You know free university education was a labour policy, ie socialist? Thank god those wicked socialists who gave you your chance aren't in power!

Education should not be free. That sucks. I don't wanna give my tax money to people doing "feminist studies", art or some other mickey mouse degree.

optocynic

brianthebard wrote: »

You know free university education was a labour policy, ie socialist? Thank god those wicked socialists who gave you your chance aren't in power!

Did you just call Labout socialists?...
Champagne socialists maybe...
I consider opening the door of education to ALL people.. so as to allow for success from all 'classes'... is capitalism at its finest!
Genius and success can come from anywhere... it just needs to be nurtured..
I will thank Labour for their policy though!

optocynic

SLUSK wrote: »

Education should not be free. That sucks. I don't wanna give my tax money to people doing "feminist studies", art or some other mickey mouse degree.

Now that is a good point... !
Theology and/or Irish... what a waste of money!!

Lockstep

Socialism is the broadest of all ideologies, and yes, Labour are socialist.

I'm extremely surprised that you are cherrypicking what is socialist; especially calling a publicly funded university system as capitalism at it's finest.

brianthebard

optocynic wrote: »

Did you just call Labout socialists?...
Champagne socialists maybe...
I consider opening the door of education to ALL people.. so as to allow for success from all 'classes'... is capitalism at its finest!

You can consider it what you want but free education is and has always been a left wing policy and not a capitalist one. Its time you faced facts the free education you benefited from was introduced by left wing members of a coalition government. If your present criticism of leftist policies had been heeded at the time then you would never have gotten that education you apparently value so much.

brianthebard

brianthebard wrote: »

You know free university education was a labour policy, ie socialist?

Was it not upper class FF Minister Donagh O'Malley's policy? He certainly is the politican most associated with "free education" on this island, albeit it he only introduced it to 2nd level in his time in office.

Lockstep

No. Donagh O'Malley introduced things like grants, free intermediate education etc in the Lemass era.

Niamh Breathnach (a Labour minister for education) introduced free third level fees in 1996)

optocynic

brianthebard wrote: »

You can consider it what you want but free education is and has always been a left wing policy and not a capitalist one. Its time you faced facts the free education you benefited from was introduced by left wing members of a coalition government. If your present criticism of leftist policies had been heeded at the time then you would never have gotten that education you apparently value so much.

You say what you want.. and in all issues but fiscal... I am liberal!
I consider the creation of free education is in the benefit of a knowledge based workforce.. It creates entrepeneurs. It attracts large multi-nationals to our shores.. it grew our economy.

The really sad issue is the lack of broad take-up of this 'left-wing' free education by the lower classes. Meaning that is mostly benefitted the 'rich'...

Idealogically it may appear to be leftist... but in action, it helped to grow a free market here...

In this country, socialism is simply the political face of begrudgery! And with the 'leftist' free education system... why not become successful yourself, instead of simply name calling of the 'rich'...

We are one of the few countries in which you are free to pull yourself up by your bootstraps... why don't we all do it?

kickoutthejams

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Niamh Breathnach (a Labour minister for education) introduced free third level fees in 1996)

Jesus...her!

Sure she was in the Labour Party.

Is there some link between the Irish Labour Party and the Left Wing? When? Where? How? A recent development, no doubt.

dmfod

optocynic wrote: »

Hey... I'm currently classified as rich... I was simply saying I come from Finglas, and have a dub accent...
I availed of the excellent prospects that were once available in this country... and moved up the classes through education and effort..

So, you.. I do support the free market.. cos it helped me to succeed..

Socialism is the politics of the lazy!

ok you're not working class then and voting according to your class interests - clever you!

there is some class mobility in the system obviously, it's not India a hundred years ago. But the point is you're much more likely to end up working class if born that way & rich if born that way etc.

Lockstep

Deleted User wrote: »

Jesus...her!

Sure she was in the Labour Party.

Is there some link between the Irish Labour Party and the Left Wing? When? Where? How? A recent development, no doubt.

I really don't know what you are trying to say with this post.

brianthebard

optocynic wrote: »

You say what you want.. and in all issues but fiscal... I am liberal!
I consider the creation of free education is in the benefit of a knowledge based workforce.. It creates entrepeneurs. It attracts large multi-nationals to our shores.. it grew our economy.

The really sad issue is the lack of broad take-up of this 'left-wing' free education by the lower classes. Meaning that is mostly benefitted the 'rich'...

So you're ok with being wrong? Btw there's a reason less people from working class (I prefer to be described by that term instead of lower class-a clear illustration of your middle class upbringing and aspirations) but I'll leave you to guess what those reasons are....

optocynic

dmfod wrote: »

ok you're not working class then and voting according to your class interests - clever you!

there is some class mobility in the system obviously, it's not India a hundred years ago. But the point is you're much more likely to end up working class if born that way & rich if born that way etc.

Why?