Give me a few good reasons why its in my best interests and others to vote yes?

caseyann

As an Irish woman and unemployed although degrees in many things can not even get a job in a shop which i am over qualified for,should vote for more the Lisbon treaty?

When been a member of the EU last few years has pushed my self and others out of jobs already? Whats in this treaty to guarantee me and others like me, that if the economy takes a turn for the better will protect me and give me a right to a job first over non nationals? Where is the protection for our economy if we have our next Celtic tiger(WHICH CAN NOT BE QUARENTEED WITH LISBON TREATY) and we have an influx of other EU members again?

Thanking you C:)

oscarBravo

caseyann wrote: »

When been a member of the EU last few years has pushed my self and others out of jobs already?

I have a problem with this premise. Can you explain how EU membership pushed you out of a job?

Scofflaw

caseyann wrote: »

As an Irish woman and unemployed although degrees in many things can not even get a job in a shop which i am over qualified for,should vote for more the Lisbon treaty?

When been a member of the EU last few years has pushed my self and others out of jobs already? Whats in this treaty to guarantee me and others like me, that if the economy takes a turn for the better will protect me and give me a right to a job first over non nationals? Where is the protection for our economy if we have our next Celtic tiger(WHICH CAN NOT BE QUARENTEED WITH LISBON TREATY) and we have an influx of other EU members again?

Thanking you C:)

You will not be getting "a right to a job first over non-nationals." If that is the yardstick by which you measure things, you should vote No, because the EU is undeniably full of foreigners.

regards,
Scofflaw

ei.sdraob

sure see this thread here What does a Yes vote Mean?

hope that helps? also checkout my signature

oh and see this here womenforeurope

caseyann

oscarBravo wrote: »

I have a problem with this premise. Can you explain how EU membership pushed you out of a job?

Yes i can,I believe in the previous agreement it was that only other EU members would be designated jobs by their skills,and in no way would undermine the right of an Irish citizen to a job.In what i have witnessed and encountered the non national is been given president over Irish workers.Irish workers should be given first preference to a job if ofc they have said skill and experience before non Irish national.Unless of course said non national has been living in Ireland or more skilled then Irish person.
With the future membership of Serbia Turkey etc.. for me casts worries on the new influx of non nationals receiving jobs in areas were skill are not a necessity just experience.Like in stores call centres etc.....

I am not only person who thinks like this alot of Irish do but wont say out of fear of been call racist when its not.And people may take as racist but its not.Same as i believe that in other EU countries native to that country should get first preference if they have same skills as non national.
Don't take offence Ocarbravo

Still no answer to why the Lisbon treaty is going to help us who are out of work right now?

caseyann

Scofflaw wrote: »

You will not be getting "a right to a job first over non-nationals." If that is the yardstick by which you measure things, you should vote No, because the EU is undeniably full of foreigners.

regards,
Scofflaw

Thats not what i am implying:rolleyes:
I am asking how is it in our best interests with so many people out of work already here to vote yes to Lisbon Treaty,and how its protecting the rights of the Irish worker from not been overlooked for a job for a non national?

ei.sdraob

caseyann wrote: »

Yes i can,I believe in the previous agreement it was that only other EU members would be designated jobs by their skills,and in no way would undermine the right of an Irish citizen to a job.In what i have witnessed and encountered the non national is been given president over Irish workers.Irish workers should be given first preference to a job if ofc they have said skill and experience before non Irish national.Unless of course said non national has been living in Ireland or more skilled then Irish person.
With the future membership of Serbia Turkey etc.. for me casts worries on the new influx of non nationals receiving jobs in areas were skill are not a necessity just experience.Like in stores call centres etc.....

So someone who is better at a job than you doesnt deserve a promotion because of their race/nationality, even if they work harder or pay more taxes?

i cant believe what you've written, is just very wrong

im sorry to say it, but no wonder you lost your job

caseyann wrote: »

Still no answer to why the Lisbon treaty is going to help us who are out of work right now?

did you bother reading the linked material i provided?


/

oscarBravo

caseyann wrote: »

...I believe in the previous agreement it was that only other EU members would be designated jobs by their skills,and in no way would undermine the right of an Irish citizen to a job.

What previous agreement? There is no legal basis for discriminating between citizens of EU member states when filling jobs.

In what i have witnessed and encountered the non national is been given president over Irish workers.Irish workers should be given first preference to a job if ofc they have said skill and experience before non Irish national.Unless of course said non national has been living in Ireland or more skilled then Irish person.

What you're asking for is illegal in the EU, and rightly so.

Still no answer to why the Lisbon treaty is going to help us who are out of work right now?

How is a "no" vote going to help you?

caseyann

ei.sdraob wrote: »

So someone who is better at a job than you doesnt deserve a promotion because of their race/nationality, even if they work harder or pay more taxes?

i cant believe what you've written, is just very wrong

im sorry to say it, but no wonder you lost your job





did you bother reading the linked material i provided?


/

Oh my god what where did i say that lmao :rolleyes:

I clearly outlined if they have same skills as Irish national that the Irish national Irish citizen or long standing resident, should be given the job first.Thats how i feel.
If their skills and qualifications are more than the Irish person than no they should get the job over the Irish person or Irish citizen or long standing resident.
Dont be all i cant believe you said that please.

I am in the middle of going to read what you link you gave me thanks.:) The woman's one doesn't speak to me though.

DanR

Maybe if you vote yes we will get some nice foreigners over here with excellent grammer and spelling!!

PopeBuckfastXVI

caseyann wrote: »

Thats not what i am implying:rolleyes:
I am asking how is it in our best interests with so many people out of work already here to vote yes to Lisbon Treaty,and how its protecting the rights of the Irish worker from not been overlooked for a job for a non national?

There's no protection of that right, because that right doesn't exist in the first place.

You have the right to live and work in another EU country, and EU citizens from other countries have the right to live and work in Ireland. To discriminate in the provision of employment based on nationality is illegal.

caseyann

oscarBravo wrote: »

What previous agreement? There is no legal basis for discriminating between citizens of EU member states when filling jobs. What you're asking for is illegal in the EU, and rightly so. How is a "no" vote going to help you?

Oh god i am so not going into that with you i will be accused of been racist,even though i remember specifically in certain situation pertaining to the other Eu members entering into Ireland to work would be said that those who arrived would be received on the grounds of their qualifications and skills.That's not what i saw in last few years.What i saw was a whole load of people coming into jobs were specifically they do not need qualifications and skills.
I am sorry Ireland is free for all.
And i never got an answer once when i asked how many Irish nationals benefited through emigration in other EU countries that have benefited from us.
Whats the statistics?

And dont turn this around to what will no do for me.
I am asking what Yes will?

PopeBuckfastXVI

caseyann wrote: »

Oh god i am so not going into that with you i will be accused of been racist,even though i remember specifically in certain situation pertaining to the other Eu members entering into Ireland to work would be said that those who arrived would be received on the grounds of their qualifications and skills.That's not what i saw in last few years.What i saw was a whole load of people coming into jobs were specifically they do not need qualifications and skills.
I am sorry Ireland is free for all.
And i never got an answer once when i asked how many Irish nationals benefited through emigration in other EU countries that have benefited from us.
Whats the statistics?

And dont turn this around to what will no do for me.
I am asking what Yes will?

Are you sure that you're not thinking of work permits for Non-EU Citizens, which are usually granted on the basis of skills shortages, such as Nurses?

caseyann

DanR wrote: »

Maybe if you vote yes we will get some nice foreigners over here with excellent grammer and spelling!!

What the hell ever :mad: go crawl back under your rock

If you cant answer the Question get lost :mad:

Euro_Kraut

caseyann wrote: »

Yes i can,I believe in the previous agreement it was that only other EU members would be designated jobs by their skills,and in no way would undermine the right of an Irish citizen to a job.In what i have witnessed and encountered the non national is been given president over Irish workers.Irish workers should be given first preference to a job if ofc they have said skill and experience before non Irish national.Unless of course said non national has been living in Ireland or more skilled then Irish person.
With the future membership of Serbia Turkey etc.. for me casts worries on the new influx of non nationals receiving jobs in areas were skill are not a necessity just experience.Like in stores call centres etc.....

English langauge skills are certainly important...

Just wondering do you think Irish people should be allowed to travel to the UK and be treated as equal in applying for jobs?

ei.sdraob

caseyann wrote: »

Oh my god what where did i say that lmao :rolleyes:

I clearly outlined if they have same skills as Irish national that the Irish national Irish citizen or long standing resident, should be given the job first.Thats how i feel.
If their skills and qualifications are more than the Irish person than no they should get the job over the Irish person or Irish citizen or long standing resident.
Dont be all i cant believe you said that please.

I am in the middle of going to read what you link you gave me thanks.:) The woman's one doesn't speak to me though.

Your feeling stands against the very foundation of EU

Have you tried to find employment, in any of the 26 other countries in EU?

to which you can freely travel and enjoy the same workers rights as the locals?

instead of sitting here on welfare, which btw is in part funded by money from European countries, countries where the welfare is alot less than here in most cases

Im sorry but your viewpoint is very wrong, and as an employer i would avoid hiring someone with your attitude

But thats your opinion and choice


edit: does anyone else find it ironic that NO side harps on about workers rights while some people couldn't care less for them....

caseyann

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Are you sure that you're not thinking of work permits for Non-EU Citizens, which are usually granted on the basis of skills shortages, such as Nurses?

Dammit am i shiat lmao sorry thanks is that what it is?

PopeBuckfastXVI

caseyann wrote: »

Dammit am i shiat lmao sorry thanks is that what it is?

That sounds similar to what you were originally describing. It doesn't apply to EU Citizens though.

caseyann

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Your feeling stands against the very foundation of EU

Have you tried to find employment, in any of the 26 other countries in EU

to which you can freely travel and enjoy the same workers rights as the locals?

instead of sitting here on welfare, which is in part funded by money from European countries btw where the welfare is alot less in most cases

Im sorry but your viewpoint is very wrong, and as an employer i would not someone like you

But thats your opinion and choice, if you dont how wrong your position is....

Can i bring to your attention your obvious lack of sentence construction and that i lost your meaning in some areas of your sentences.

And i dont want to work outside my home i want to work at home.

Living on social right :rolleyes: almost survival on social would be a word to better describe it thanks very much
Dont make assumptions about how long i am on social when you do not know me.
You wouldn't hire me why lmao because i made slanderous racist remarks against anyone?

p.s as an employer shouldn't you be working instead of been on a computer trying to make like i am saying something i am not

ShooterSF

Casey:
Unlike some here I won't ridicule your beliefs/grammar. I share some of your concerns over our immigration policy and believe we should have went down a similar path to the UK in restricting access to new member states of the E.U. As much as I'd like to see you vote No this however is a fuk up on national level, not european. It something you should bring up with your local TD's in future General elections. Trust me though they don't like to discuss this topic as it's a bit of a social taboo. It has little to do with Lisbon though.
However your concerns may lead you down a path where you decide you are against our membership of the E.U. Again Lisbon is not a vote on our membership and if you find yourself in this situation you must ask yourself which E.U do you see as the lesser of two evils, pre- or post-lisbon. That's for you to decide if you find yourself there.
I hope I have been of help to you and good luck in the job hunt, it's never easy!

caseyann

ShooterSF wrote: »

Casey:
Unlike some here I won't ridicule your beliefs/grammar. I share some of your concerns over our immigration policy and believe we should have went down a similar path to the UK in restricting access to new member states of the E.U. As much as I'd like to see you vote No this however is a fuk up on national level, not european. It something you should bring up with your local TD's in future General elections. Trust me though they don't like to discuss this topic as it's a bit of a social taboo. It has little to do with Lisbon though.
However your concerns may lead you down a path where you decide you are against our membership of the E.U. Again Lisbon is not a vote on our membership and if you find yourself in this situation you must ask yourself which E.U do you see as the lesser of two evils, pre- or post-lisbon. That's for you to decide if you find yourself there.
I hope I have been of help to you and good luck in the job hunt, it's never easy!

Thank you very much for that post.You honestly can not have a view or an opinion these days with been accused of been racist.
I am asking an honest question with honest worries and looking for honest answers and getting attacked for thinking.
I appreciate and thank you for your lack of discrimination:)
Thank you for the good luck as well

View

ShooterSF wrote: »

Casey:
I share some of your concerns over our immigration policy and believe we should have went down a similar path to the UK in restricting access to new member states of the E.U.

We copied the British cabinet's decision when deciding to allow unrestricted access from the 10 accession states in 2004 and we copied them again in deciding to restrict access from the 2 latest in 2007.

You don't seriously think that the Government ignored the British cabinet's decision when making its own "independent" decision, do you?

K-9

ShooterSF wrote: »

I share some of your concerns over our immigration policy and believe we should have went down a similar path to the UK in restricting access to new member states of the E.U.

Good post but I think the UK had the same policy as us. Probably one of the reasons we did follow that policy.

P. Breathnach

DanR wrote: »

Maybe if you vote yes we will get some nice foreigners over here with excellent grammer and spelling!!

And a sense of irony.

PCPhoto

Caseyann ..... I dont understand what answer you are looking for ...... Voting YES or NO to Lisbon wont make it easier for you to get a job.

Personally I'll be throwing my vote towards the NO side - purely on the basis that the Government we have are in support of it and we all know how useless they are... so in my opinion voting "No" will show them that the people still have their opinion and are willing to voice it.

(I know I'm going to get a torrent of abuse from YES campaigners - scofflaw/euro_kraut etc) and while I understand that this isnt meant to be about the Government its a European thing - true - but my opinion is my opinion and my vote is going to be cast.

just also to throw it out there - regardless of whether you vote "yes" or "no" ... wages will be lowered and more jobs will be lost. (something that the Yes campaign are afraid to admit and something that the No campaign seem to be trying to manipulate to their advantage - but they went a bit overboard with it.)

ShooterSF

View wrote: »

We copied the British cabinet's decision when deciding to allow unrestricted access from the 10 accession states in 2004 and we copied them again in deciding to restrict access from the 2 latest in 2007.

You don't seriously think that the Government ignored the British cabinet's decision when making its own "independent" decision, do you?

K-9 wrote: »

Good post but I think the UK had the same policy as us. Probably one of the reasons we did follow that policy.

Hmm odd. I always thought they had further restrictions than us. I was quite verbal about it at the time too and no one bothered to correct me Cheers guys. (Yikes )
Anywho point remains, I think, restrictions are done at a national level and that's where those concerns should be pointed...

prinz

caseyann wrote: »

As an Irish woman and unemployed although degrees in many things can not even get a job in a shop which i am over qualified for,should vote for more the Lisbon treaty?

What? Could you tell me what you're over-qualified for? What areas you have degrees in?

caseyann

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

English langauge skills are certainly important...

Just wondering do you think Irish people should be allowed to travel to the UK and be treated as equal in applying for jobs?

Where did i say anyone shouldnt be allowed to travel and work? I am merely stating the amount and the cost to which Irish people will loose.

View

PCPhoto wrote: »

Caseyann ..... I dont understand what answer you are looking for ...... Voting YES or NO to Lisbon wont make it easier for you to get a job.

Personally I'll be throwing my vote towards the NO side - purely on the basis that the Government we have are in support of it and we all know how useless they are... so in my opinion voting "No" will show them that the people still have their opinion and are willing to voice it.

(I know I'm going to get a torrent of abuse from YES campaigners - scofflaw/euro_kraut etc) and while I understand that this isnt meant to be about the Government its a European thing - true - but my opinion is my opinion and my vote is going to be cast.

Fair enough. Does this mean you'll also vote against the proposed "Children's Rights" referendum on the basis that the Government are useless?

ei.sdraob

@ caseyann

i sent a pm apology

i went a bit overboard

hope all is cool now

K-9

ShooterSF wrote: »

Hmm odd. I always thought they had further restrictions than us. I was quite verbal about it at the time too and no one bothered to correct me Cheers guys. (Yikes )
Anywho point remains, I think, restrictions are done at a national level and that's where those concerns should be pointed...

Something tells me, even if we had availed of the derogation at the time, immigration would still be a big factor, though obviously not of the same extent.

Johnee

One thing that has surprised me about this whole debate is how much the Yes campaign have failed to communicate how much the EU has been responsible for women's rights in Ireland. Before we joined the EEC (as it then was), there was no equality of pay or rights between men and women. Married women had to retire from the civil service for God's sake. Since we joined, our government has been required by EU law to bring in:

*Equal pay for men and women.
*Equal rights for male and female workers.
* Anti-discrimination rules preventing sexual discrimination.
* Equal rights between part-time and full-time workers (which disproprtionately affect women as they are the majority of part-time workers)
* Equal social welfare entitlements for men and women.

Not to mention all the benefits of parental leave and so on that have been brought in by EU law. The EU has shown itself to be far more protective of women's rights, family rights, parents rights and workers rights than the Irish government has ever been of its own accord. And Lisbon continues that process with the Charter and so on. I dont understand how the No side have been successful in painting the EU as some sort of elite conspiracy out to get us when it has shown for 36 years that it is a worthwhile organisation with a strong commitment to social democratic values which has had a real and tangible effect on the lives of women and workers in European countries. And especially countries with governments (like ours has been for a long time) with a more Anglo-American (PD) attitude to workers. Why would that suddenly change? The Yes side has been dismal at communicating tihs (presumably because the parties dont want to be reminded that they had to be dragged kicking and screaming to give women eual rights).

To the OP - The EU has been responsible for a lot of the rights you have today as an Irish woman. The opportunities you got in college have been funded by a lot of EU money, without which our colleges would collapse due to a lack of exchequer funding. You can think of many examples from our lives where its had a postive impact that means it deserves our trust. Trust has to be earned. Our politicians havent done that. The No side hasnt done that. I think the EU has. Lisbon allows that process to continue and makes fundamental in the Charter a lot of the social rights that have been so important for workers and women in Ireland.

There's a lot of Lisbon that's concerned with institutional voting, etc that you really cant pin down precise effects. It doesnt mean Serbia will join. It certainly doesnt mean Turkey will join. In fact, Lisbon creates a blocking minority of four countries and given how many countries are opposed to Turkey's membership (France, Germany, etc), it makes it unlikely that will happen anytime soon, if ever. It means certain decisions can be made more easily. Who knows how they will be made? Based on past experience, you would have to say generally in a positive way (the EU has not only been positive for rights in Ieland, but also has been more positive than the US, etc internationally and leads the Western powers in standards on energy efficiency, in trying to make progress on global warming talks, in efforts to reach fairer agreements for poorer countries on globalisation). I'd prefer to trust the EU to continue doing what it has done successfully for 40 years in raising protection for workers and woman, in encouraging economic development, in supporting free trade and exports (vital for a small country like Ireland) than I would Fianna Fail, or Patricia McKenna, or Coir, or Sinn Fein or Fine Gael, or Anthony Coughlan (who's been claiming the next Treaty will lead to a loss of neutrality and greater militarisation for the last four or five of them).

And if we dont like what happens? Lisbon for the first time lets us leave the EU if that's what we want.

hatrickpatrick

Here are the alleged reasons I've seen on Yes posters:
-Ireland needs Europe
-Europe has been good for Ireland
-Women, workers, and children have all benefitted from the EU
-We need a strong voice in Europe

As you can see, points 1, 2, and 3 have absolutely nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty and point 4, whilst true, is actually an argument against signing away our vetoes. Go figure.

If you want real reasons to vote yes, read the treaty or a simplified version of it and decide whether you like the changes it introduces or not. Ignore the posters and campaign slogans from both sides, they're all full of ****.

Euro_Kraut

caseyann wrote: »

Where did i say anyone shouldnt be allowed to travel and work? I am merely stating the amount and the cost to which Irish people will loose.

I got the impression from your opening post that you did not think that Non-Irish people should get jobs ahead of Irish people. Correct me if I have picked that up wrong.

I can understand you veiw point to a certain extent, but its worth considering that if we were to apply restrictions to other in Europe they would apply the same to us. Also, I think morally that we couldn't expect to be allowed to emmigrate to the UK and elsewhere and than get upset when people come here.

ShooterSF

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I got the impression from your opening post that you did not think that Non-Irish people should get jobs ahead of Irish people. Correct me if I have picked that up wrong.

I can understand you veiw point to a certain extent, but its worth considering that if we were to apply restrictions to other in Europe they would apply the same to us. Also, I think morally that we couldn't expect to be allowed to emmigrate to the UK and elsewhere and than get upset when people come here.

That's a good point. I was listening to a chap on newstalk a few days ago giving out about our immigration policy. I found myself nodding in agreement to a lot of his points. Then he was asked his opinion on illegal Irish in the states and I nearly crashed the car when I heard him say that was a different situation (OK legally it is but that's not where he went with it). It's amazing how patriotism can be so blinding. Somehow he managed to have two opposite opinions on the same subject matter depending on who was involved. I would have had much more respect for the guy if he had said they should be deported and banned from the states.

PaulieD

oscarBravo wrote: »

I have a problem with this premise. Can you explain how EU membership pushed you out of a job?

Simple. The influx of cheap labour from the accession states.

PopeBuckfastXVI

PaulieD wrote: »

Simple. The influx of cheap labour from the accession states.

You mean when we had virtually full employment?

PaulieD

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

To discriminate in the provision of employment based on nationality is illegal.

Not in Germany. Or Austria. The accession states citizens need a work permit to commence employment. Funny that the Europhiles never mention that.

PopeBuckfastXVI

PaulieD wrote: »

Not in Germany. Or Austria. The accession states citizens need a work permit to commence employment. Funny that the Europhiles never mention that.

We were talking about Ireland...

And even in Germany and Austria I'm pretty sure it's illegal to discriminate between 2 people purely on the basis of nationality, all other things being equal. Open to correction on that though.

PaulieD

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Just wondering do you think Irish people should be allowed to travel to the UK and be treated as equal in applying for jobs?

The Common Travel Area between both countries predates their EU membership. It has nothing what so ever to do with the EU.

PaulieD

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

We were talking about Ireland...

And even in Germany and Austria I'm pretty sure it's illegal to discriminate between 2 people purely on the basis of nationality, all other things being equal. Open to correction on that though.

Employers have to prove that no German citizens are either qualified or available for the job before emplying a citizen from the accession states.

PaulieD

View wrote: »

We copied the British cabinet's decision when deciding to allow unrestricted access from the 10 accession states in 2004 and we copied them again in deciding to restrict access from the 2 latest in 2007.

You don't seriously think that the Government ignored the British cabinet's decision when making its own "independent" decision, do you?

Some of the politicos on these boards are very badly informed. It was Brian Cowens decision to open our borders to the accession states. He presumed at the time, that the UK would issue a work permit scheme.

Oifig An Aire Gnóthaí Eachtracha
Baile Athá Cliath 2


Mr. Tom Kitt T.D.
Minister for Labour, Trade & Consumer Affairs
Davitt House
65A Adelaide Road
Dublin 2


12 March 2002



Our Ref: EU20018



Dear Tom,


I refer to your letter dated 6th March concerning a query from XXXXXXXXX in relation to EU enlargement and the access of citizens of new member states to the rest of the EU.

Ireland took the decision to allow the citizens of new EU member states full and free access to live and work here from the first day of accession. I took the opportunity to inform the Foreign Minister of each candidate country directly in a letter last June.
I understand that three other EU member states, Denmark, the Netherlands and Sweden have also taken a similar decision to us.

The rest of the existing Member States have reserved the right to restrict the access of citizens of new member states (excluding Cyprus and Malta) for up to seven years from the date of accession. This position reflects the fact that certain member states have serious concerns that immediate access could result in distortions to domestic labour markets. In fact, authoritative studies predict that such severe distortions are unlikely and it is quite possible that Member States will be in a position to open up their borders sooner than the maximum of seven years.

I trust that this satisfactorily answers XXXXXXXX’s query.

With kind regards

Yours sincerely

Brian Cowen T.D.
Minister for Foreign Affairs

K-9

PaulieD wrote: »

Some of the politicos on these boards are very badly informed. It was Brian Cowens decision to open our borders to the accession states. He presumed at the time, that the UK would issue a work permit scheme.

Oifig An Aire Gnóthaí Eachtracha
Baile Athá Cliath 2


Mr. Tom Kitt T.D.
Minister for Labour, Trade & Consumer Affairs
Davitt House
65A Adelaide Road
Dublin 2


12 March 2002



Our Ref: EU20018



Dear Tom,


I refer to your letter dated 6th March concerning a query from XXXXXXXXX in relation to EU enlargement and the access of citizens of new member states to the rest of the EU.

Ireland took the decision to allow the citizens of new EU member states full and free access to live and work here from the first day of accession. I took the opportunity to inform the Foreign Minister of each candidate country directly in a letter last June.
I understand that three other EU member states, Denmark, the Netherlands and Sweden have also taken a similar decision to us.

The rest of the existing Member States have reserved the right to restrict the access of citizens of new member states (excluding Cyprus and Malta) for up to seven years from the date of accession. This position reflects the fact that certain member states have serious concerns that immediate access could result in distortions to domestic labour markets. In fact, authoritative studies predict that such severe distortions are unlikely and it is quite possible that Member States will be in a position to open up their borders sooner than the maximum of seven years.

I trust that this satisfactorily answers XXXXXXXX’s query.

With kind regards

Yours sincerely

Brian Cowen T.D.
Minister for Foreign Affairs

Surprised it took you so long to find this thread Paulie.

Do you have a link for that letter?

PaulieD

[quote=K-9;62301028]Do you have a link for that letter? [/quote]

It is freely available on oireachtas.ie . I cannot provide the exact link as it is a word document. A quick google and you will find it.

K-9

PaulieD wrote: »

It is freely available on oireachtas.ie . I cannot provide the exact link as it is a word document. A quick google and you will find it.

Couldn't find it by Google. What section do you go to on the site?

PaulieD

K-9 wrote: »

Couldn't find it by Google. What section do you go to on the site?

http://www.google.ie/#hl=en&ei=JBvBStjpKY_W-QbzycS6AQ&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=brian+cowen%27s+letter+to+tom+kitt+accession&spell=1&fp=e51dcc0862117ee1

Third from bottom.

prinz

PaulieD wrote: »

http://www.google.ie/#hl=en&ei=JBvBStjpKY_W-QbzycS6AQ&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=brian+cowen%27s+letter+to+tom+kitt+accession&spell=1&fp=e51dcc0862117ee1

Third from bottom.

The Annual Report 2002/3 of the Joint Committee on European Affairs? What page is the letter on?

K-9

If it is this, www.oireachtas.ie/documents/.../Annual_Report_02_03.doc I couldn't find it.

PaulieD

PaulieD wrote: »

Employers have to prove that no German citizens are either qualified or available for the job before emplying a citizen from the accession states.

Ive never heard that. Im not saying its not true but I havent come across it. Article 39 of the EC Treaty guarantees the free movement of workers. Any restrictions on this freedom are narrowly construed.

Specifically:

For workers, this freedom has existed since the foundation of the European Community in 1957. It is laid down in Article 39 of the EC Treaty and it entails:

* the right to look for a job in another Member State;
* the right to work in another Member State;
* the right to reside there for that purpose;
* the right to remain there;
* the right to equal treatment in respect of access to employment, working conditions and all other advantages which could help to facilitate the worker's integration in the host Member State.

http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/areas/industrialrelations/dictionary/definitions/FREEMOVEMENTOFWORKERS.htm

prinz

Deleted User wrote: »

Ive never heard that. Im not saying its not true but I havent come across it.

Actually the case in Germany is pretty much identical to our own work visa programme. The employers don't have "to prove" anything, other than that the job was advertised for a period of time. In Ireland AFAIK it's three days, I'm not 100% but I think it's the same in Germany.

It becomes a load of hysterical nonsense, that makes it look like Germany is somehow 'protecting' their own, when it comes to jobs, whereas Ireland is not. Typical foolishness. Poor Paulie, perhaps he should go to Germany and see for himself the number of non nationals working happily away.

PaulieD

prinz wrote: »

Actually the case in Germany is pretty much identical to our own work visa programme. The employers don't have "to prove" anything, other than that the job was advertised for a period of time. In Ireland AFAIK it's three days, I'm not 100% but I think it's the same in Germany.

It becomes a load of hysterical nonsense, that makes it look like Germany is somehow 'protecting' their own, when it comes to jobs, whereas Ireland is not. Typical foolishness. Poor Paulie, perhaps he should go to Germany and see for himself the number of non nationals working happily away.

Of course there are foreigners working away, Germany cannot fulfill its labour needs be itself. But, Germany has not had the same numbers of eastern europeans flocking to their shores, per capita, as Ireland. The German employer has to prove that he could not find a German citizen suitable for the job before hiring a citizen of the accession states.

Ireland should have adopted a similar scheme.