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Lisbon Treaty Debate on boards.ie

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    #122
    Daftendirekt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Daftendirekt


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    Would this be the same united nations who's member states sit down together after invading one another?
    Why bother listing this articles? No body follows them.

    Because you asked why we'd be obliged to help another member state.

    I presumed you meant under Lisbon, not under any present international law.


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    #123
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    K-9 wrote: »
    Are you saying we should step in?
    Do you think i'm saying that?


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    #124
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    sink wrote: »
    So what are you asking me here? Under the terms of the Lisbon treaty we will have to do sfa if war breaks out in Europe, legally we can sit on our arse and send bunches of flowers and condolence cards.

    Whether that is moral or not is another argument, and if you want to know I think we would be cowards to just stand idly by.
    If you believe that nonsense then i can't argue against that line of thinking.


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    #125
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    Daftendirekt wrote: »
    Because you asked why we'd be obliged to help another member state.

    I presumed you meant under Lisbon, not under any present international law.
    As opposed to the countries that actually follow international law?


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    #126
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    sink wrote: »
    and if you want to know I think we would be cowards to just stand idly by.

    Lynch never said that! :P

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #127
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    LZ5by5 wrote: »
    In fairness, I wouldn't fancy going up against two mods of politics.

    Why?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #128
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    Their hardly that good at debating.
    All they do is quote article numbers and fire out yellow cards when the going gets tough.
    :)


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    #129
    Handsome Bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    K-9 wrote: »
    Why?

    There's an air of intimidation about it don't you think?


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    #130
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    Do you think i'm saying that?

    Well I interpreted it as that.

    Can you clarify your post?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #131
    Daftendirekt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Daftendirekt


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    As opposed to the countries that actually follow international law?

    I don't follow. Do you mean to say, that since the member states would just ignore the rules they themselves have made, there's no point in quoting the Treaty?


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    #132
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    LZ5by5 wrote: »
    There's an air of intimidation about it don't you think?

    Nope, send a few ESB workers over.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #133
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    K-9 wrote: »
    Thank God a couple stepped forward.

    This oppression card is getting boring, especially when it comes to an invitation to debate.

    Imagine Ganley pulling this on RTE? Even Ganley wouldn't pull that card.

    A few stepped up? That's fantastic! Who are the masochists?
    LZ5by5 wrote: »
    In fairness, I wouldn't fancy going up against two mods of politics.

    If I was right and they were wrong I'd have no fear. And if I thought they were wrong but kept having my points shot down, I'd question my position.


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    #134
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    Daftendirekt wrote: »
    I don't follow. Do you mean to say, that since the member states would just ignore the rules they themselves have made, there's no point in quoting the Treaty?
    I'll answer with this.

    How can sovereign countries whom are all members of the united nations sit down across from one another and discuss international law while one member invades the other illegally?

    The rules are not worth the paper their written on unless you have a veto or a bigger army than the other fella.

    Now that should make my position clear.
    And if you don't agree i can't help you there.


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    #135
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    K-9 wrote: »
    Well I interpreted it as that.

    Can you clarify your post?
    K9 i'm after losing track.


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    #136
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Are you suggesting that because the UN can be ineffective at stopping countries from invading each other, that somehow means the EU can force us to aid them in military action? Do you think the EU is going to invade us? Because that's the only way they can make us do that

    Edit: also if the rules aren't worth the paper they're written on, what difference does a veto make? That would be part of the rules


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    #137
    Daftendirekt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Daftendirekt


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    I'll answer with this.

    How can sovereign countries whom are all members of the united nations sit down across from one another and discuss international law while one member invades the other illegally?

    The rules are not worth the paper their written on unless you have a veto or a bigger army than the other fella.

    Now that should make my position clear.
    And if you don't agree i can't help you there.

    Well that's fair enough, but the UN is not the EU.

    I'd agree that the former has become pretty redundant lately, but the latter is still functional.


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    #138
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that because the UN can be ineffective at stopping countries from invading each other, that somehow means the EU can force us to aid them in military action? Do you think the EU is going to invade us? Because that's the only way they can make us do that

    Is this some black belt debating trick I'm not aware of?
    "Are you suggesting?"

    Your choice of wording is not the best.The word "ineffective" should instead be, irrelevant.How can the eu invade Ireland, it is only a organization or will that change?


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    #139
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    Daftendirekt wrote: »
    Well that's fair enough, but the UN is not the EU.

    I'd agree that the former has become pretty redundant lately, but the latter is still functional.

    Maybe this will answer your question about eu law.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055692890


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    #140
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    K9 i'm after losing track.

    Can you clarify this:
    Captain Furball wrote:

    Look if you think we won't be going to war if all hell breaks loose you don't really believe that do you?Ya sure your not expected to do anything.Do you think the dutch or british should do all the fighting for you? Come on now get real.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #141
    Daftendirekt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Daftendirekt


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    Maybe this will answer your question about eu law.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055692890

    I didn't ask a question about EU law.


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    #142
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    Is this some black belt debating trick I'm not aware of?
    "Are you suggesting?"

    Your choice of wording is not the best.The word "ineffective" should instead be, irrelevant.How can the eu invade Ireland, it is only a organization or will that change?

    No it's not a ninja black belt debating tactic, I just don't know what you're talking about. What, if anything, does the inaction and irrelevancy of the UN have to do with whether we can be forced by EU law to aid the rest of the EU in military actions?

    The EU can't invade Ireland but member states can and they'd have to to force us to give up our neutrality


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    #143
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    Daftendirekt wrote: »
    I didn't ask a question about EU law.

    but the latter is "not" still functional was the point i was making.
    I mistakenly said question my apologies.


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    #144
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Btw, you said that the rules aren't worth the paper they're written on unless you have a veto...

    We have a veto on defence matters


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    #145
    Daftendirekt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Daftendirekt


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    but the latter is "not" still functional was the point i was making.
    I mistakenly said question my apologies.

    No prob. I was being slightly pedantic anyway ;).

    But why do you say the EU isn't functional? By not taking sanctions against Israel are they actually breaking any off their own laws?

    (And in case you're wondering, I'm not in any way supportive of Israel's actions against Palestine.)


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    #146
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    K-9 wrote: »
    Can you clarify this:
    What do you want me to say?
    I think myself if lisbon is ratified we are obligated to go help them.
    And not with blankets either.You think otherwise. That's fair enough.
    Obviously the eu project has an end goal and i don't like it.


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    #147
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    w00t wrote: »
    Cheers for your comment.

    You seemed to know a lot of facts regarding the treaty but I am glad to see you are just like me and you have no real idea, bar taking a stance and promoting that stance, of what the Lisbon treaty really means for our future.

    Actually no. What you are doing is trying really hard to discredit everything factual Scofflaw has stated about the treaty using a response by him to a "What if?" question.

    If you want to discredit his point argue why he is wrong pointing out that it's an answer "What if?" question and therefore not in the realm of facts, isn't just redundant it's utterly disingenuous.

    There are no facts concerning the future, only theories. The sun rising tomorrow isn't actually guaranteed you know.


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    #148
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    No it's not a ninja black belt debating tactic, I just don't know what you're talking about. What, if anything, does the inaction and irrelevancy of the UN have to do with whether we can be forced by EU law to aid the rest of the EU in military actions?

    The EU can't invade Ireland but member states can and they'd have to to force us to give up our neutrality

    My point is everyone in this thread keeps saying article this section that.But in reality we will have to go help them and if we don't we will be isolated.
    It's like whats happening right now with our own incompetent government.
    If you don;'t vote yes your going to die is what they're nearly saying.


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    #149
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    My point is everyone in this thread keeps saying article this section that.But in reality we will have to go help them and if we don't we will be isolated.
    It's like whats happening right now with our own incompetent government.
    If you don;'t vote yes your going to die is what they're nearly saying.

    You keep talking as if the EU was some external entity and not a community of individual countries. The EU is bound by the treaties that create it because they are the only thing that give it any power to do anything.


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    #150
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    nesf wrote: »
    You keep talking as if the EU was some external entity and not a community of individual countries. The EU is bound by the treaties that create it because they are the only thing that give it any power to do anything.
    I'm well aware of that.
    But it's not like the EU is the voice of all it's citizens now is it?


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    #151
    Daftendirekt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Daftendirekt


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    I'm well aware of that.
    But it's not like the EU is the voice of all it's citizens now is it?

    The respective governments of the member states fill that role.

    Edit: And the Parliament too.


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