Lisbon Treaty Debate on boards.ie

ei.sdraob

What about this @greeno guy > http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=62190019#post62190019


or @defence_forces > http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62187911&postcount=2516


theres also @Toiletroll


and there was that moderator (cant find his name) who was arguing me about democracy and Lisbon


also what about @hatrickpatrick he seems to be quite sensible his problem is loss of sovereignty > http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055682583

DeVore

We're looking for 4 No debaters and can probably squeeze 2 out of the nominations we have at the moment so we're looking for at least 2 more.

We would really like the No campaigners and proponents to come forward and engage in this debate. Ideally ones who can put forward their opinion/arguments in a rational and structured manner.

While its all very well to mock the opposition to your viewpoint, its vital that this country has a clear and informed debate about the impending vote. Debate is at the heart of democracy and the internet is unparralleled in its ability to allow the people have their say and ask questions in return.

I welcome all serious debaters of both sides to step forward and engage in such a debate.

DeV.

caseyann

Is it to late to nominate.
I nominate Sully for the No side.

DeVore

You should really ask someone before you nominate them

We'll keep the doors open for debaters up to the very last minute, probably Saturday evening.

DeV.

meglome

ei.sdraob wrote: »

and there was that moderator (cant find his name) who was arguing me about democracy and Lisbon

Was that walshb you were thinking of?

ei.sdraob

DeVore wrote: »

You should really ask someone before you nominate them

We'll keep the doors open for debaters up to the very last minute, probably Saturday evening.

DeV.

What happens if not enough people from the NO side steps up to debate? its strange that we are having hard time finding people to debate when they appear to be so vocal in their drive by postings....

its easier to create new accounts and post one liner slogans over and over than participate in reasoned debate

meglome

sub-x seems to be involved in the sovereign independent, maybe he'd like to have a go.

Euro_Kraut

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I don't know if that would work. I don't mean to sound facetious but because I assume you value honestly in the debate you won't give any of the points from the no side that aren't true which will miss out large parts of the debate and really leave you very little to say. It would require someone who actually believes all those points made by the no side so they can all be raised and shown to be the lies that they are. If you're saying things that you know are wrong people will just dismiss the debate as one yes voter throwing up flawed arguments for another to knock them down.

I agree Sam. I am would only go forward as a last resort. It would be better to have a debate with those issues rather than no debate at all.

Believe you me once if was to argue on the NO side my natural competitiveness to win the debate I was in would superceed any wider feelings I have about the treaty! I am that shallow

Lets hope it doesn't come to that though. No harm to have a back up option if needs be. Plus we need to account for people pulling out at the last minute.

ei.sdraob

meglome wrote: »

Was that walshb you were thinking of?

yes himself

thanks

moondogspot

There is very much a pro yes bias in the Lisbon section of boards so it's hardly a shock that you

are struggling to find people to debate for the no side. Why would they even bother? Anyway I'm

sure most of those seen as a threat to the Yes camp have already been banned...unsurprisingly

enough.

BlitzKrieg

the debate has nothing to do with the EU section of boards, its not moderated by the same moderators nor is it subject to the same rules so those banned from the EU forum are welcomed to take part.

bonkey

moondogspot wrote: »

There is very much a pro yes bias in the Lisbon section of boards so it's hardly a shock that you are struggling to find people to debate for the no side.

It certainly comes as a shock to me that of the umpteen people who've claimed a bias against them expressing their point of view, not a single one (including yourself) has stepped up to avail of the opportunity being offered here...where part of the ground rules will be to ensure they get their say.

Why would they even bother?

Why would someone avail of the opportunity to be allowed voice their opinion, when their basic complaint is that this has been denied to them?

Unless they thought that there was more mileage from playing the "poor oppressed me" card than in actually making their case, I can't think of a single reason why they wouldn't bother, personally.

DeVore

Are you stepping forward? You will be expected to be civil but beyond that the debate will be allowed to follow its own course.

You up for it?

DeV.

Handsome Bob

Can I make one small request for this debate? If it's any way possible can someone outline what are the benefits of voting YES specific to Ireland? I don't really want to see for example what scofflaw has on his site:

http://www.lisbonexposed.org/

I don't want to see a general summary of how it is good for Europe as I know these points already, I want to see arguments for how this treaty will spefically benefit Ireland.

For the record, I'm voting yes mainly because I want a stronger EU with more power in fighting human and drug trafficking, I just think it would be nice to know if Ireland stands to gain anything personally here.

w00t

The Discussion is already happening? On boards and p.ie. Asking people to go off to some mini arena to microize the debate in an event type fashion, like it will be anyway helpful, seems a bit silly. As the event, if I might use that phrase, is highlighted quite well on the site it is strange you are all hunting for No debaters. Perhaps they are happy enough with the Forums to discuss their points and issues?

Debates, teams and winners does not seem to hold much value on the Lisbon issue really, just on the debaters and the quality of their pieces.

my 2c.

nesf

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Can I make one small request for this debate? If it's any way possible can someone outline what are the benefits of voting YES specific to Ireland? I don't really want to see for example what nesf has on his site:

http://www.lisbonexposed.org/

That's not my site and I have had absolutely nothing to do with anything on it.

Handsome Bob

nesf wrote: »

That's not my site and I have had absolutely nothing to do with anything on it.

Sorry about that, I mixed you up with scofflaw.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62258022&postcount=4

Scofflaw

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Can I make one small request for this debate? If it's any way possible can someone outline what are the benefits of voting YES specific to Ireland? I don't really want to see for example what scofflaw has on his site:

http://www.lisbonexposed.org/

I don't want to see a general summary of how it is good for Europe as I know these points already, I want to see arguments for how this treaty will spefically benefit Ireland.

For the record, I'm voting yes mainly because I want a stronger EU with more power in fighting human and drug trafficking, I just think it would be nice to know if Ireland stands to gain anything personally here.

I don't think there's anything specifically for Ireland - to be honest, I think that's why our politicians can't work out what to say about it. It's good for you personally (in my opinion, obviously) as a citizen, but there's nothing in the Treaty itself which is of specific benefit to Ireland.

cordially,
Scofflaw

K-9

Good to see more No side interest and participation. Was starting to think it was going to be the same old responses as you find on the EU forum.

Handsome Bob

Scofflaw wrote: »

I don't think there's anything specifically for Ireland - to be honest, I think that's why our politicians can't work out what to say about it. It's good for you personally (in my opinion, obviously) as a citizen, but there's nothing in the Treaty itself which is of specific benefit to Ireland.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Well, if the YES campaign posters are anything to go by, then that should be a good enough platform for explaining in the debate why voting YES is good for Ireland. Or are those "Yes for the Economy!" and "Yes for Jobs!" posters just a pile of manure? :pac:

BlitzKrieg

I don't think there's anything specifically for Ireland - to be honest, I think that's why our politicians can't work out what to say about it.

None of the treaties ever outline things good for specific countries though, if you want to see anything specific you have to turn to protocols which would be areas where countries have gotten specific exceptions and opt outs etc.

Lisbon is a toolbox like all previous treaties, a hammer does not automatically get you a book shelf, but it is a very handy tool if you want to build one.

Scofflaw

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Well, if the YES campaign posters are anything to go by, then that should be a good enough platform for explaining in the debate why voting YES is good for Ireland. Or are those "Yes for the Economy!" and "Yes for Jobs!" posters just a pile of manure? :pac:

They're not based on what's actually in the Treaty - they're based on what you might call the side-effects of the vote.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Handsome Bob

Scofflaw wrote: »

They're not based on what's actually in the Treaty - they're based on what you might call the side-effects of the vote.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I would ask you to elaborate for my simple mind, but I know that you probably want to keep your arguments protected for the debate!

Scofflaw

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I would ask you to elaborate for my simple mind, but I know that you probably want to keep your arguments protected for the debate!

I'd have to hunt up the comprehensive post I did on the subject, but it's basically a case of the Treaty allowing Europe and Ireland to get on with dealing with the economic crisis together, in a good working relationship, rather than both stagnating and at loggerheads over the EU's reforms. In the absence of real reasons to vote No (and unless you're into sacred sovereignty, there aren't really any), that's quite sufficient a reason to vote Yes.

cordially,
Scofflaw

w00t

Scofflaw wrote: »

They're not based on what's actually in the Treaty - they're based on what you might call the side-effects of the vote.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Side effects? There are no side effects? It is either passed or not?

sink

w00t wrote: »

Side effects? There are no side effects? It is either passed or not?

And when a family home in California is foreclosed, that has absolutely no impact on jobs in the west of Ireland? Don't be so naive!

w00t

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'd have to hunt up the comprehensive post I did on the subject, but it's basically a case of the Treaty allowing Europe and Ireland to get on with dealing with the economic crisis together, in a good working relationship, rather than both stagnating and at loggerheads over the EU's reforms. In the absence of real reasons to vote No (and unless you're into sacred sovereignty, there aren't really any), that's quite sufficient a reason to vote Yes.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The current economic crisis is now a side effect to be helped? A yes vote will be useful to our current situation? A No vote is not?
Has it not been said that the treaty is above all that petty stuff and about a smoother running of the EU?

Who would have thought using the current economic crisis would be a useful tool in the current referendum.

w00t

sink wrote: »

And when a family home in California is foreclosed, that has absolutely no impact on jobs in the west of Ireland? Don't be so naive!

I don't know what to say. Is my sarcasim meter askew? Am I just thick? (Possibly)

PM me the number of your dealer? :D

Scofflaw

w00t wrote: »

The current economic crisis is now a side effect to be helped? A yes vote will be useful to our current situation? A No vote is not?
Has it not been said that the treaty is above all that petty stuff and about a smoother running of the EU?

That's what the Treaty is about - plus a better deal for the citizens.

w00t wrote: »

Who would have thought using the current economic crisis would be a useful tool in the current referendum.

The vote is somewhat separate from the Treaty, I'm afraid - it decides the fate of the Treaty alright, but there's now a lot more riding on the vote than that. It's become something of a defining vote on Ireland's relationship with the EU.

It's not as if I'm saying something the No side hasn't said, after all - and it's a good deal less likely that a Yes vote would have an effect on 1916 than on our economy.

cordially,
Scofflaw

w00t

Scofflaw wrote: »

That's what the Treaty is about - plus a better deal for the citizens.



The vote is somewhat separate from the Treaty, I'm afraid - it decides the fate of the Treaty alright, but there's now a lot more riding on the vote than that. It's become something of a defining vote on Ireland's relationship with the EU.

It's not as if I'm saying something the No side hasn't said, after all - and it's a good deal less likely that a Yes vote would have an effect on 1916 than on our economy.

cordially,
Scofflaw

So if we vote no we are less off and in trouble economically?

If we vote yes we are better off?

Is it that simple, like you are insinuating?

What are you saying? There is now a lot more riding on the Treaty and Vote? The vote is on our relationship with Europe? So a No vote is not on the treaty but possibly on our relationship in Europe? You did say It's become something of a defining vote on Ireland's relationship with the EU.

Has it really? Is that just not spin politics on your behalf?