National Postcodes to be introduced

Sam Russell

My objection to Eircode:

1. It is useless without online access to the database.

2. The database is a 'charged for' access database.

3. The routing part is too imprecise to be of any use on its own.

4. The rest of the code is a random collection of nonsense caharacters.

5. The code will be impossible to memorise for most, except for one or two of them like your own.

It should have a more precise routing part, numerically base to avoid post-code snobbery (if you like) and follow the telephone numbering format. Five digits will give a granularity of less than 200 addresses per routing code, and can be aligned on street/county boundaries. The random bit could then be two or three character (probably 3). This would allow the routing part to be used on its own - for privacy or just because the other bit is too hard to remember.

I have no interest in any rival system in any way - just an interest in the system working, and being useful for the population as a whole. If people cannot even remember their own code, what use is it?

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

My objection to Eircode:

1. It is useless without online access to the database.

2. The database is a 'charged for' access database.

3. The routing part is too imprecise to be of any use on its own.

4. The rest of the code is a random collection of nonsense caharacters.

5. The code will be impossible to memorise for most, except for one or two of them like your own.

It should have a more precise routing part, numerically base to avoid post-code snobbery (if you like) and follow the telephone numbering format. Five digits will give a granularity of less than 200 addresses per routing code, and can be aligned on street/county boundaries. The random bit could then be two or three character (probably 3). This would allow the routing part to be used on its own - for privacy or just because the other bit is too hard to remember.

I have no interest in any rival system in any way - just an interest in the system working, and being useful for the population as a whole. If people cannot even remember their own code, what use is it?

you're just saying the same thing...listing stuff but not giving any reasons why


1. It is useless without online access to the database.
Why is this an issue? I've outlined why i think its a good thing (you can run queries, no ambiguity, database has both english and irish and known alias addresses, it creates a central repository and an official address database)

2. The database is a 'charged for' access database.
Why is this an issue? indicators from eircode point towards a small enough fee within the reach of any SME (about 200) this is good as it will be self financing, but still affordable

3. The routing part is too imprecise to be of any use on its own.
why is this an issue? no one wants you to use it on its own?

4. The rest of the code is a random collection of nonsense caharacters
why is this an issue? it means new codes can be added without having to change other peoples eircode

5. The code will be impossible to memorise for most, except for one or two of them like your own
this is pure rubbish...how retarded to you think Irish people are that they can't remember 7 characters. They have no need to remember anyone else's.

Do you want to answer my earlier question about Marketing and Revenue too???

antoinolachtnai

The reason the requirement for an online database is an issue is that it is just too slow if you want to sort a load of boxes.

A code can be structured without being sequential. It is no problem to leave space for future expansion.

The complicated mix of letters and numbers makes the codes very difficult to accurately remember. There is plenty in the literature in relation to this.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The reason the requirement for an online database is an issue is that it is just too slow if you want to sort a load of boxes.

A code can be structured without being sequential. It is no problem to leave space for future expansion.

The complicated mix of letters and numbers makes the codes very difficult to accurately remember. There is plenty in the literature in relation to this.

you are purely thinking of package delivery and eircode is NOT exclusively for that use.

take this example, you own or operate a call centre and i need to take customers addresses on a daily basis
With your system tied into the eircode database you can type in 7 characters and return the exact official address to your system (loc8 or any other non database code can't do this)

Same for any company that needs to take addresses
Pizza Delivery: ask for eircode, pop into database and get the exact address

Online sign up's: pop in your eircode and get the rest of the fields populated with your exact official address

the list could go on and on and on.

and if delivery companies invest in eircode they can also optimise their route planning and they can even use the system to line up the parcels in the correct loading order to go onto the back of the van (last to be delivered, first to be loaded etc) theres ways and means of getting huge advantage from eircode but the delivery industry can't look beyond their own processes and see how to improve them with eircode.

I've seen the most botched and haphazard delivery planning systems in use in Ireland and it makes me want to bang my head off a wall when i see what some companies are doing.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

you're just saying the same thing...listing stuff but not giving any reasons why


1. It is useless without online access to the database.
Why is this an issue? I've outlined why i think its a good thing (you can run queries, no ambiguity, database has both english and irish and known alias addresses, it creates a central repository and an official address database)

2. The database is a 'charged for' access database.
Why is this an issue? indicators from eircode point towards a small enough fee within the reach of any SME (about 200) this is good as it will be self financing, but still affordable

3. The routing part is too imprecise to be of any use on its own.
why is this an issue? no one wants you to use it on its own?

4. The rest of the code is a random collection of nonsense caharacters
why is this an issue? it means new codes can be added without having to change other peoples eircode

5. The code will be impossible to memorise for most, except for one or two of them like your own
this is pure rubbish...how retarded to you think Irish people are that they can't remember 7 characters. They have no need to remember anyone else's.

Do you want to answer my earlier question about Marketing and Revenue too???

You are clearly close to Eircode - either as an employee or some other link.

1. I cannot use Eircode unless I have access to the database. If I do not have a computer with interet access, or a smartphone, I cannot use it, so if I am in away from my desktop or in a poor coverage for internet, what can I do? That is a problem that Eircode does not answer. It is brilliant for business that are built around the internet, not so good for those that are not. If the first problem - non-unique addresses - had been tackled first, then we would have non-unique addresses. Just as we will have leaky pipes and water meters and very expensive bills for water (highest /unit charge in the EU). I expect we will have the most expensive postcode system in Europe as well.

2. If the database is public, it should be free - just like the phone book.

3. The routing part - D04 for wxample covers 80,000 addresses. If it covered 200 addresses, it would be useful. I live in 16883 would mean I live in Ballsbridge. I live in D04 is to use for anyone. If I am selling my car, I do not want to give my address, but I can give as much of my postcode as I wish.

4&5. How anyone can expect to memorise a random collection of 4 characters, I do not know. I appreciate the need to slot other codes into the sequence, but why can those not be tacked on the end of the more precise routing part as random numbers. You do not need 4 random characters to do this job, one or two would do. If there are only 200 addresses in a routing code, how many insertions are you expecting?

I think solving the non-unique addresses should have been tackled first, and the format used is just nuts.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

You are clearly close to Eircode - either as an employee or some other link.

nope I've zero link to them, honestly

the scenarios you have given are forced and not relevant

1, what is this scenario of being out and about and not being connected to the internet about??? what exactly are you doing here that you need to work out an eircode? what is the practical day to day scenario? what is the ACTUAL problem here?

2, no it shouldn't be free, roads are public infrastructure and are not free

3, if you're selling a car in Ballsbridge, write Ballsbridge on the ad...

4&5, i do not comprehend how you think people aren't capable of memorising 4 characters, thats just mind blowing.

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

i can't be dealing with multi quoters it makes my eyes hurt

my points:
you can navigate with eircode too. 99.999999% of places people will want to go are addresses and not locations

Database look ups are used a lot and will be even more so with eircode (companies who use it now: Three, Dominos, Pizza Hut, Apple and loads more i can't remember)

Eircode can find a house too, so its fine for delivery companies


Really not sold on this 'needs to be sequenced claim'
Really not sold on this 'needs to be able to function with a database claim'

I've yet to see anything compelling to make me believe these


and if you've spent years in logistics you're probably one of those people who can't see the woods for the trees.

I won't name and shame but I've asked companies why they do their deliveries the way they do and the answer i've gotten is "thats just the way its done" it really highlighted to me that they had no sense of self improvement or any idea what technological innovation was

btw, thats just a handful of companies, the bigger ones are very good at adopting new stuff

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

thats a local media outlet in leitrim basically repeating the same article that was in the IT and IE but a week later. :rolleyes:

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

tell that to dominos pizza so, because they validate addresses from a database right now. as do the other companies i mentioned

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

Right so, Domino's need an address database. They don't need to be lumbered with eircode on account of requiring this. They can use on of the superior alternative location coding systems to complete the final task... finding the damn place they're going

You seem to be claiming that eircode has some sort of advantage because it's tied to a database. It doesn't. As I've stated here before... eircode is the bastard child from a dubious requirement for an address database. Anyone who wants an address database - perfectly fine. They can then tie in a very useful location code to each address in said database. Those who don't need an address database - perfectly fine. They can use this same very useful location coding system without any database

So we can all live in harmony?

People needing a database use eircode (cos it's the only one with a database currently)

People who just want to navigate can use loc8

Problem solved. I'm off out to Israel now to help with the peace talks!

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

rotharrage

Has anyone got the list of 139 Routing Keys? Or the list of 139 existing Post Towns that they are based on?

larchill

Concerns about the proposed new Eircode postcode system will be discussed later today.
Officials from the Department of Communications and Capita Business Support Services Ireland - the company responsible for rolling out the system - will appear before the Committee on Transport and Communications.
The new system will be implemented across the country from next year.
Deputy John O’Mahony, the Chairman of the Committee, says today's meeting will give all sides an opportunity to respond to any criticisms.
He said: "The role of the committee is to hear all sides of this debate so that there will be a clear view as to whether this postcode system will be successful and meet the needs of the Irish people.
"I think that needs to be done in advance of it being rolled out which is next year, and if it is then, that people will be educated to the advantages of the system."

Is this going the way of Irish Water

expectationlost

how big will the eircode routing areas be?

Sam Russell

expectationlost wrote: »

how big will the eircode routing areas be?

Up tp 80,000 addresses. They should be about 200 houses if they are to be any use as routing codes without access to a database.

expectationlost

Sam Russell wrote: »

Up tp 80,000 addresses. They should be about 200 houses if they are to be any use as routing codes without access to a database.

is that for one of the legacy dublin postcodes, is the routing code area going to be a grid elsewhere?

Sam Russell

expectationlost wrote: »

is that for one of the legacy dublin postcodes, is the routing code area going to be a grid elsewhere?

No maps or plans are yet published, but routing codes go from 2,000 addresses to 80,000 addresses. I would not imagine they are to be based on a grid as they are based on postal towns and postal districts. Since An Post say they do not need postal codes as they are sorted already, this makes no sense. Well the whole design makes no sense anyway.

TheBustedFlush

Some interesting points emerging from Oireachtas committee discussion today, submissions made by delivery and other companies and media reports:

The average routing key area will be about 15,000 addresses.

There are 139 routing keys linked to the national road network.

Every address that receives mail will have its own unique/different code.

A key requirement for design was that people's existing addresses would not be changed - the code is an addition, not a replacement of any part of an address. So Joe Murphy living in Codedtown, Co. Westmeath will continue to use his address the same as Joe Murphy living in 12 Coded Avenue, Drimnagh, Dublin 12 will continue to use his address. The Eircode will be an extra line beneath that.

Other addresses/locations that don't receive mail will be considered in the future to allocate codes to - since there are 390,000 possible codes in each routing key area, there is plenty of capacity to do this. First phase is to get postal addresses coded and embedded into everyday public use.

The second half of the code has 25 characters (not digits/numbers) in each position. To avoid confusion, particularly in rural areas where non-unique addresses abound, codes will not be allocated in sequence or look very similar to neighbouring houses. So people living in the townland of Codesville, Co. Tipperary with say 15-20 houses having the same address, each will have a distinctively different code to help with identification. The rules for this allocation are set out in the Eircode Product Guide e.g. no two addresses in the same townland will have similar or sequenced codes.

The FTAI does not represent every delivery company in Ireland nor speak for them - including some of the largest home delivery companies such as Nightline or Fastway.

Some of these service delivery and logistics companies - large and small - will use the Eircode and think it will be beneficial to their businesses.

The code is unique to each and every address and doesn't stop at the front door of apartment blocks.

The code design does not have postcode areas/clusters that promote discrimination or create ghettoes - creating one kind of cluster for one sector does not suit all sectors or individuals.

The code will be linked to existing boundaries such as counties, electoral districts and small areas. This will suit a variety of companies across research, logistics, retail, social services, home delivery, utilities, healthcare, as well as a range of public services.

Satnav and mapping companies are interested in using Eircodes, including Google Maps.

The codes will be available on a free look-up site with a likely limit of 15 per day - these limits will be relaxed at high volume postal times of the year such as Christmas when members of the public might want to look up a large number of codes for mailing items.

An Post will be using the codes, and say it will be particularly useful at high volume times such as Christmas, particularly for temporary, part-time employees. They will get cost-savings from using it and people using it.

The code will not be made mandatory by an Post whereby they will refuse to deliver mail if the code is not on it.

Private companies may choose to make the code a requirement of a person's address e.g. international e-tailer for online shopping.

All of Eircode and its various IP belongs to the State.

Small companies can have access to the database for as little as about €10 a month.

Charges for freight companies to have access to the Eircode database would be significantly lower than had been reported.

expectationlost

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Some interesting points emerging from Oireachtas committee discussion today, submissions made by delivery and other companies and media reports:

The average routing key area will be about 15,000 addresses.

There are 139 routing keys linked to the national road network.

Every address that receives mail will have its own unique/different code.

A key requirement for design was that people's existing addresses would not be changed - the code is an addition, not a replacement of any part of an address. So Joe Murphy living in Codedtown, Co. Westmeath will continue to use his address the same as Joe Murphy living in 12 Coded Avenue, Drimnagh, Dublin 12 will continue to use his address. The Eircode will be an extra line beneath that.

Other addresses/locations that don't receive mail will be considered in the future to allocate codes to - since there are 390,000 possible codes in each routing key area, there is plenty of capacity to do this. First phase is to get postal addresses coded and embedded into everyday public use.

The second half of the code has 25 characters (not digits/numbers) in each position. To avoid confusion, particularly in rural areas where non-unique addresses abound, codes will not be allocated in sequence or look very similar to neighbouring houses. So people living in the townland of Codesville, Co. Tipperary with say 15-20 houses having the same address, each will have a distinctively different code to help with identification. The rules for this allocation are set out in the Eircode Product Guide e.g. no two addresses in the same townland will have similar or sequenced codes.

The FTAI does not represent every delivery company in Ireland nor speak for them - including some of the largest home delivery companies such as Nightline or Fastway.

Some of these service delivery and logistics companies - large and small - will use the Eircode and think it will be beneficial to their businesses.

The code is unique to each and every address and doesn't stop at the front door of apartment blocks.

The code design does not have postcode areas/clusters that promote discrimination or create ghettoes - creating one kind of cluster for one sector does not suit all sectors or individuals.

The code will be linked to existing boundaries such as counties, electoral districts and small areas. This will suit a variety of companies across research, logistics, retail, social services, home delivery, utilities, healthcare, as well as a range of public services.

Satnav and mapping companies are interested in using Eircodes, including Google Maps.

The codes will be available on a free look-up site with a likely limit of 15 per day - these limits will be relaxed at high volume postal times of the year such as Christmas when members of the public might want to look up a large number of codes for mailing items.

An Post will be using the codes, and say it will be particularly useful at high volume times such as Christmas, particularly for temporary, part-time employees. They will get cost-savings from using it and people using it.

The code will not be made mandatory by an Post whereby they will refuse to deliver mail if the code is not on it.

Private companies may choose to make the code a requirement of a person's address e.g. international e-tailer for online shopping.

All of Eircode and its various IP belongs to the State.

Small companies can have access to the database for as little as about €10 a month.

Charges for freight companies to have access to the Eircode database would be significantly lower than had been reported.

where did you get that from?

postcodes create ghettos?

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

SpaceTime

80,000 addresses is actually less accurate than most Dublin postcodes. There are only 1.9 million households in Ireland and only 1/3 or fewer are in the Dublin postal districts.

ukoda

“The industry had a chance to share their thoughts on Eircode even before it was signed off by the Dáil more than 12 months ago. I think that the system, as proposed, is entirely workable and will be a great advantage for both residents and businesses in Ireland. It actually promises to help my sector speed up deliveries and make them even more accurate than they are at present.”

Well there's what nightline have to say, how is that they can see the potential of it and the others are blind? Vested interest?

Here's the source article
http://www.businessandleadership.com/business/item/48448-nightline-sets-out-position

ozmo

I've read the technical document - and what I got from it was:

1) Houses in an apartment block will get unique codes - BUT Company Offices in an Office building will NOT get a unique eircode
(conspiracy theory: because offices don't need pay property tax I wonder?)
So all postboxes in the country will Not get an Eircode.

2) To validate a code is ridiculously complex - they suggest you look up lots of address that are "similar" (similar is not explained fully) to the address that the postcode gives in the database and see if you can find a better match for the postcode they gave originally. Unless someone comes up with an open source code library to do this then very few will implement it or implement it correctly.

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The articles you talk about were purly a journalists ill researched opinion. I quoted this as its a quote from an actual delivery company


You know what's funny? Nightlines use of eircode makes the FTAI look like morons who either don't understand what eircode is or they have some other axe to grind

yuloni

This post has been deleted.